FreeDuck
 
  1  
Fri 25 Apr, 2008 07:18 am
cjhsa wrote:
They obviously aren't weighing the candidates against each other.


Really? That's not so obvious to me. Would you say that, since older white women tend to support Hillary that means they obviously aren't weighing the candidates against each other? If they did, in your estimation, weigh the two candidates together, do you think that they'd come to some different conclusion?

Quote:
They also feel they owe no political loyalty to the Clintons, who pandered to them for eight years.


A good sign, that.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Fri 25 Apr, 2008 07:23 am
I have finally decided who to support in this election.

After much thought, I am going to vote for the "Hyneman/Savage" ticket in 2008.
That seems like a better choice then anyone running today.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Fri 25 Apr, 2008 07:26 am
mysteryman wrote:
I have finally decided who to support in this election.

After much thought, I am going to vote for the "Hyneman/Savage" ticket in 2008.
That seems like a better choice then anyone running today.


Laughing

Well I know Savage flat out declares himself a better choice than any of the current crop of candidates--he hates all of them including Ron Paul--but I wasn't aware that Hyneman had expressed an interest. Tell us more. Smile
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Fri 25 Apr, 2008 07:31 am
Foxfyre wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
I have finally decided who to support in this election.

After much thought, I am going to vote for the "Hyneman/Savage" ticket in 2008.
That seems like a better choice then anyone running today.


Laughing

Well I know Savage flat out declares himself a better choice than any of the current crop of candidates--he hates all of them including Ron Paul--but I wasn't aware that Hyneman had expressed an interest. Tell us more. Smile


Can you imagine a better pair, especially with Kari, Grant, and Tori sitting on their cabinet?

But here is an interesting article....
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/04/jenna_bush_on_t.html

Could Jenna support Obama?

Quote:
Could Barack Obama's rock star-like appeal to young voters extend to a Republican first daughter?

President Bush and First Lady Laura Bush are solidly behind John McCain, the presumptive GOP nominee.

But when Jenna Bush was asked whether she was in McCain's corner, she was decidedly noncommittal. "I don't know," she said during an appearance Wednesday night on CNN's "Larry King Live" to discuss her wedding next month.

She went on to say she is "open" about the presidential race and has been too busy with her books to pay loads of attention to the campaign. "I mean, who isn't open to learning about the candidates?" Jenna Bush, 26, asked.

Obama has attracted droves of new, young voters in his surge to become the Democratic front-runner. In Pennsylvania on Tuesday, he won 60 percent of the votes of those ages 18 to 29, according to exit polls.


Thats an interesting possibility, to say the least.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 25 Apr, 2008 07:59 am
Thomas wrote:
The same is true for Obama's whole rhetoric about "hope" and "change". It's also a bull-crap issue, and it has very little to do with the way he would run the government if elected.

I disagree.

I dont know if I buy into the theory myself - I'm not quite sure how feasible it is. But there's clearly an underlying theory or philosophy of government to the way Obama weds the issues of government, and an electorate imbued with activist hope and an active willingness to push for change. It's not just pretty talk that's said because it sounds good.

Obama has been asked: you say you want to bring everyone to the table, talk with everyone, on health insurance reform for example -- but whence this notion that you can negotiate in good faith with these people? Isnt it more realistic to recognize them as the entrenched adversaries from the start and prepare your battle from there, bipartisan spirit be damned? This is much of the vibe behind Camp Clinton's critique.

But from what I understand, how Camp Obama conceives of a negotiation process that brackets everyone but nevertheless will not need involve an endless watering down of the proposals, is that there will be a strong role set aside for bottom-up organising, civic pressure, community-based lobbying. Mobilising the voters (or viewers, see FreeDuck's C-SPAN example) to become players in the game themselves. And bring down the opposition with a kind of pincher-like pressure, from the top down by the President and a Democratic majority in Congress, and from the bottom up by actively engaged, organised citizens.

This is a philosophy that stands in marked contrast with the Hillary world view, in which voters seem to primarily be objects - people whose assent needs to be won once in a two/four years by hook or by crook so the executive will have the leeway to push her way through.

The Obama vision comes, from what I get, from his background in community work and activism, but also has a fairly extended theoretical background that's been built over the past couple of decades, in an alternate universe to the traditional power politics practiced in DC. I'm not much of a political philosopher, so dont ask me to explain properly. It's all way over my head. It's just that I read a handful of longer articles that explored this in some depth.

Do I think this alternative vision of how to achieve the goals of progressive politics is feasible? Realistic? E.g., how mobilisable is the American people as a social force, not just during the scandal-filled elections, but as a sort of continuous mass lobby for better policies?

I would have been extremely sceptical a year ago and still am sceptical, but I have to admit that the way Obama is built his campaign, focused on instilling political commitment on a mass base rather than just courting for votes, is impressive. He's largely succeeding, building an army of committed volunteers who are not just doing it because the union told them to, or because they are hardened party activists and would support any nominee, but because they really believe that here's a rare opportunity, a cause they believe in.

But how sensitive are the kind of power players that will be standing in the way of progressive policy to grassroots pressure? I mean, so you show the negotiations on health insurance on C-Span. The idea is, I suppose, to dangle the geeky equivalent of an Idols type mechanism: millions are watching you, you have an opportunity to ingratiate yourself by coming up with constructive ideas; whereas if you do the traditional intrigue and blockade, they will be looking to vote you off the island, one way or another. Does a health insurance honcho care? Wouldnt you just gets lots of grandstanding instead?

Again, I'm totally out of my depth here, and so I'm just picking up on one example that I can easily imagine, and perhaps it's not the fairest. In short, I think it's definitely worth a try - why not, it should be a nice change from the mere power politics of cynical manipulation, which sees voters only as flocks that need to be herded once in a couple of years. But do I think it'll work? Mmmmwwaah..

But that's where the hope and change talk comes in. In order to invest people into a cause and make them willing to devote real time and energy to it, you dont just need to persuade them that they agree with you - I agree with lots of things I wont make the time for to do something about. You need to get them emotionally invested in it, by persuading them that, yes, there's a real possibility to change things this time, yes, they have the power themselves to help that bring about, and yes, they will be listened to. You need to instill the kind of passion that the Republican conservatives successfully inspired in evangelical voters for two or three decades. You need something like MoveOn, without the radicalism and on a much larger scale.

But the justified cynicism of massively disaffected voters stands in between the current situation and a place where you could mobilise civil society on a greater scale. So the talk of hope and change is conceived here as a real strategical tool, not just as flattery words to please people. Whatever you think of the merits and feasibility of this whole philosophical foundation of this part of Obama's campaign - and again, if I am understanding it all correctly, I'm fairly sceptical; I'm afraid it'll all turn out to be pie in the sky and we'll end up wishing America had just elected a ruthless strategic operative like Hillary - just "bullcrap rhetoric" all this "hope" and "change" stuff is not.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Fri 25 Apr, 2008 08:08 am
mysteryman wrote:
I have finally decided who to support in this election.

After much thought, I am going to vote for the "Hyneman/Savage" ticket in 2008.
That seems like a better choice then anyone running today.


Hyneman from mythbusters? I don't know mm. Hyneman sounds like hymen -- they'll be calling him a pussy in no time.
0 Replies
 
teenyboone
 
  1  
Fri 25 Apr, 2008 08:12 am
cjhsa wrote:
Obama's getting 90% of the black vote.

Doesn't say much for black voters truly embracing the political system, does it?

Why not? We vote 90% for whites, all the time! Don't you agree?
Cool
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Fri 25 Apr, 2008 08:14 am
teenyboone wrote:

Why not? We vote 90% for whites, all the time! Don't you agree?
Cool


Not at all. I vote for the right person for the job.
0 Replies
 
teenyboone
 
  1  
Fri 25 Apr, 2008 08:21 am
cjhsa wrote:
teenyboone wrote:

Why not? We vote 90% for whites, all the time! Don't you agree?
Cool


Not at all. I vote for the right person for the job.

None the less, they're usually white! It's just that for once, white Democrats or Republicans, shouldn't be surprised that just once, we'd vote for someone who is not only qualified but looks like us, too. That said, what makes Hillary think that he or any other qualified Democrat or Republican should step aside for her? That's all! Cool
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Fri 25 Apr, 2008 08:21 am
FreeDuck and nimh --

Since there's a good chance Obama will be elected, let's just revisit this in two years if he does. I predict that when you look back then, you will find that Obama is just another Democratic president, and that his presidency's mode of operation is well within the range of how past Democratic administrations have operated.

And don't forget this predictions is coming from the same guy who said in 2006 that crude oil would be below $62 by the end of 2008.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Fri 25 Apr, 2008 08:30 am
FreeDuck wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
I have finally decided who to support in this election.

After much thought, I am going to vote for the "Hyneman/Savage" ticket in 2008.
That seems like a better choice then anyone running today.


Hyneman from mythbusters? I don't know mm. Hyneman sounds like hymen -- they'll be calling him a pussy in no time.


Yes, that Hyneman.
Also, I would make Mike Rowe the SecState.
And the guys from "Deadliest Catch" would also have to be in the admin somewhere.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Fri 25 Apr, 2008 08:32 am
A Discovery Channel administration? Hmmmm....
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 25 Apr, 2008 08:35 am
Thomas wrote:
Since there's a good chance Obama will be elected, let's just revisit this in two years if he does. I predict that when you look back then, you will find that Obama is just another Democratic president, and that his presidency's mode of operation is well within the range of how past Democratic administrations have operated.

Unhuh -- no fair!

I already said that I was fairly sceptical myself that any of this will work to any significant degree.

My point was that the "hope" and "change" stuff is not just pandering with pretty talk, like I believe you were saying. There's a whole political philosophy and ambitious strategical goals behind it. It's not just Obama reaching for the suavest sounding phrase.

Whether the Obama people will succeed in achieving any of those goals they have with it is a separate question.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Fri 25 Apr, 2008 08:35 am
McGentrix wrote:
A Discovery Channel administration? Hmmmm....


Why not?
Those are people that actually know how to get things done.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Fri 25 Apr, 2008 08:36 am
Discovery Channel administration... I like it.

And a How It's Made episode for bills and major governmental decisions.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Fri 25 Apr, 2008 08:38 am
Thomas wrote:
FreeDuck and nimh --

Since there's a good chance Obama will be elected, let's just revisit this in two years if he does. I predict that when you look back then, you will find that Obama is just another Democratic president, and that his presidency's mode of operation is well within the range of how past Democratic administrations have operated.

And don't forget this predictions is coming from the same guy who said in 2006 that crude oil would be below $62 by the end of 2008.


Hah, ok Thomas. That's certainly a realistic perspective. Still, I'd rather take the risk that someone who intends to fundamentally shift the way our country is governed might fail rather than the safe bet that someone who intends no such shift will succeed.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Fri 25 Apr, 2008 08:59 am
nimh wrote:
My point was that the "hope" and "change" stuff is not just pandering with pretty talk, like I believe you were saying.

Well, I was giving Obama the benefit of the doubt. I was assuming he knows that he's not going to change Washington, and that the hope and change stuff is just soundbites for getting elected. If he actually believes the stuff he is saying about hope and change, I should probably start looking into a transfer to Canada. Or donating to Hillary, hoping that she, at least, doesn't believe her own Iran soundbites.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Fri 25 Apr, 2008 09:00 am
Nicely stated, FreeDuck.

Especially because I think a "failure" in this sense is that an Obama presidency ends up pretty much as Thomas describes, "well within the range of how past Democratic administrations have operated."

I think he's too smart and too pragmatic for his attempts to end in any kind of real failure, in the "not getting anything done" sense.

Meanwhile, this was encouraging:

"Dems' suspense may prove unnecessary" by Elizabeth Drew at Politico

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0408/9862.html

Remember those 50 superdelegates for Obama that Tom Brokaw mentioned? She seems to be referring to them here:

Quote:
At first, a large number of superdelegates planned to announce their support for Obama following Super Tuesday, but he didn't do well enough to warrant that; then it was to be after Ohio and Texas; then after Pennsylvania; and some Democrats suggest that if Obama wins both Indiana and North Carolina a number of superdelegates will announce for him then. But the prevailing thinking is to allow the race to play out, avoiding a confrontation with Clinton and her backers, but also letting the pressure grow on her to justify continuing to fight a bloody but lost cause. This is, the thinking goes, the best and perhaps only way to get the thing wrapped up, as they so desperately want to do.


That's what I keep seeing. Donna Brazile said she'd make her preference known before July 1st -- that's what Howard Dean has urged. Lots of other undecided superdelegates have said some variation of "once all the votes are in." I think that's likely.

Meanwhile, the first part of the article is interesting too and a good point that I wish I'd see more -- sure, Obama isn't perfect, sure, he has his weaknesses, but is Hillary the better choice?

Quote:
The critical mass of Democratic congressmen that has been prepared to endorse Obama when the timing seemed right remains prepared to do so. Their reasons, ones they have held for months, have not changed - and by their very nature are unlikely to.

Essentially, they are three:

(a) Hillary Rodham Clinton is such a polarizing figure that everyone who ever considered voting Republican in November, and even many who never did, will go to the polls to vote against her, thus jeopardizing Democrats down the ticket - i.e., themselves, or, for party leaders, the sizeable majorities they hope to gain in the House and the Senate in November.

(b) To take the nomination away from Obama when he is leading in the elected delegate count would deeply alienate the black base of the Democratic Party, and, in the words of one leading Democrat, "The superdelegates are not going to switch their voter and jeopardize the future of the Democratic Party for generations." Such a move, he said, would also disillusion the new, mostly young, voters who have entered into politics for the first time because of Obama, and lose the votes of independents who could make the critical difference in November.

(c) Because the black vote can make the decisive difference in numerous congressional districts, discarding Obama could cost the Democrats numerous seats.

One Democratic leader told me, "If we overrule the elected delegates there would be mayhem." Hillary Rodham Clinton's claim that she has, or will have, won the popular vote does not impress them - both because of her dubious math and because, as another key Democrat says firmly, "The rules are that it's the delegates, period." (These views are closely aligned with Speaker Nancy Pelosi's statement earlier this year that the superdelegates should not overrule the votes of the elected delegates.)
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Fri 25 Apr, 2008 09:30 am
anton bonnier wrote:
If I was a yank..I would vote for Obama before the other dipwicks you got running.


You may add that to the list of reasons I'm glad you are not a yank.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Fri 25 Apr, 2008 09:41 am
Ticomaya wrote:
anton bonnier wrote:
If I was a yank..I would vote for Obama before the other dipwicks you got running.


You may add that to the list of reasons I'm glad you are not a yank.


Oh, c'mon, Tico. You like Obama. I can tell. Admit it. It's ok, we won't make fun of you.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

So....Will Biden Be VP? - Question by blueveinedthrobber
My view on Obama - Discussion by McGentrix
Obama/ Love Him or Hate Him, We've Got Him - Discussion by Phoenix32890
Obama fumbles at Faith Forum - Discussion by slkshock7
Expert: Obama is not the antichrist - Discussion by joefromchicago
Obama's State of the Union - Discussion by maxdancona
Obama 2012? - Discussion by snood
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Obama '08?
  3. » Page 786
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.36 seconds on 11/17/2024 at 07:21:13