nimh
 
  1  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 04:27 pm
mysteryman wrote:
I saw and heard quite a bit more when I went to her event that I hadnt seen or heard in the media.
In person, you hear everything the candidate is saying, not just what the media or the candidates own spin doctors want you to hear.
And regarding written transcripts, they dont allow you to see HOW a candidate is saying something, you only see WHAT that candidate said.

Her interaction with the audience was fantastic.
She had the crowd, 90% or more were her supporters to begin with, enthralled.
But to me, there were to many times when she seemed to be trying to say 2 different things at the same time, or she seemed like she was actually having to force some of her words out, like she didnt believe them herself.

Of course, that is just my opinion, but that goes back to HOW a candidate is saying something.

As for my personal reaction, I had the chance to meet her after the event when she came into the "overflow room", where about 300 people were waiting.
She was a very personable woman, and I imagine that if she wasnt running for office that she could be popular with everyone that meets her.

I dont know if that answers the question, but its really difficult to put into words the sort of "gut reaction" I had after her event in Evansville.


Hey, that was interesting, MM. Thanks. Great to hear a 'live witness' report, so to say.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 04:49 pm
Way back when - how time flies - the whole "bitter" flap was still the outrage du jour, I had a bit of a run-up with George when he proclaimed that


georgeob1 wrote:
It was truly insulting to those who were the subject of [Obama's] remarks


I teased him a bit bout that and pointed out that the polls said otherwise:

nimh wrote:
Says someone speaking with the expertise about the lives of blue-collar, small-town Pennsylvania folk that a former government and business executive naturally would have... :wink:

In the meantime, the polls are not showing Obama's remarks to have any effect at all, on balance. So it looks like the only offense taken is by elitist, richly paid professional media pundits and politicians, in their role-playing of how they imagine yer typical blue-collar heartland to feel.


Unfortunately, George took this as a "personal attack". I blinked at that a bit in turn, and wrote:


nimh wrote:
Are you kidding me, George? [..] When you confidently postulate how Pennsylvania blue-collar workers feel, is it a "personal attack" to point out that, ehm, maybe a prosperous, Republican, retired executive could do with acknowledging that he may not be the best person to tell? A deserved little ribbing on that Not Equal "personal attacks", come on...

Again, you may have an idea of what those working families feel, but considering where you're coming from, it doesnt count for much more than, say, Blatham's feelings about it. Isnt it better to defer to the data in such cases, or acknowledge that we really dont have a clue?

[It's] like Tim Russert, always emphasising how once upon a time he came from Buffalo whenever he assumes, from his long-standing, royally-paid, elite Beltway perch, to know what the regular Joe feels. [N]ormally you're skeptical enough to see through such pundits' breathless hyping of trivialities in this 24/7 news age. Maybe your aversion to the Dem candidate this time made it too tempting to buy into the hype?


Anyway. All that as lead-in to return to the subject.

I mentioned polls, then, but also the anecdotal evidence that reporters came back from when they went out to talk to "real people" about bittergate, and found that few cared much. Of course, most of that stuff is worth as little as the paper it's printed on. But the WaPo had a report from a small West-Pennsylvanian "Rust Belt" town last Saturday that returned to the subject.

It's a well-written, evocative article. And it doubles as a nice, touching portrait of a pocket of Pennsylvania where time took a train out a long time ago. A place appropriately named Charleroi, after the Belgian city that itself is in the middle of Belgium's declining Rust Belt. It's the kind of report I really like - makes me feel like I get to know a little about very different places.


Quote:
Maybe Not 'Bitter,' But Aware of the Loss
In Western Pa., Witnessing a Steady Decline

Washington Post
April 19, 2008

CHARLEROI, Pa. -- Sitting with friends over 74-cent cups of coffee at the McDonald's here, Bob and Michael Jeanmenne can see more than a few things that might affect their moods.

The Monongahela River, which runs cleaner than when they were young (not a good sign); the trains, which rumble along the river but don't stop, since the station was replaced by a Rite Aid years ago; and the main drag, McKean Avenue, where the streetcar is long gone, half the storefronts are vacant and many others are on the verge of shuttering.

"You couldn't walk down one block without bumping into 30 people. Now you walk down three or four blocks at 8 at night and you won't run into anyone," said Michael Jeanmenne, 80.

Yes, the Jeanmenne brothers concede, they are somewhat "bitter," the word that Sen. Barack Obama used at a San Francisco fundraiser to describe small-town Pennsylvania, in a riff that Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton seized on to cast him as elitist. The steel mill where Michael worked as a stenciler is slated to shut down this year; the GM parts manufacturer where Bob worked is also on its last legs. All eight of their children have left town. "There's an awful lot of resentment around here," said Bob Jeanmenne, 84.

And no, they do not agree with the rest of Obama's analysis: that voters in distressed towns "cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment as a way to explain their frustration."

Yet they find it hard to get worked up about the comments -- as do other Pennsylvanians, judging by polls that so far show little damage from an episode Clinton has worked hard to exploit. Years of watching the decline of the town they have lived in since their family arrived from France in the 1920s has, they suggested, provided perspective that keeps them from getting caught up in 24-hour cable and Internet outrage.

Bob Jeanmenne almost always votes Republican (though he's a Democrat) and Michael almost always votes Democrat (he hasn't decided whom to support next week). But both doubt that Obama's remarks will affect the primary.

"He overstepped his statement, and didn't realize what he was saying. It was a Freudian slip -- he said what's in his mind," said Bob Jeanmenne. "But I don't think it will make much difference."

This town 30 miles south of Pittsburgh illustrates the challenge Obama faces with older, blue-collar Reagan Democrats in the Rust Belt -- a weakness Clinton backers warn may yet hurt the Democrats if he is the nominee. Most Democrats interviewed here said they would vote for Clinton, citing her experience and their fondness for her husband's administration, as well as their unfamiliarity with Obama. Some said they will vote for Obama if he is the nominee; others weren't sure.

Yet while questioning elements of Obama's remarks, residents showed little personal offense. Some, including potential Clinton supporters, questioned her claim to be a grittier alternative to Obama, noting her personal wealth and her husband's signing of the North American Free Trade Agreement, blamed for job losses.

"She'd be okay, but he's more for the people," said Teena Papa, 39, a restaurant worker who appreciates Obama because he was raised by a single mother, which she is.

Most of all, residents noted the irony that -- after years of neglect -- they are having their innermost feelings argued over by presidential candidates and pundits, all because of a two-sentence gaffe.

"I didn't pay too much attention to it," said Donna Horan, 68, the wife of a retired steelworker, who supports Clinton. "He's going to put his foot in his mouth and so does she. They're both going to say things that just come out."

"It's petty squabbling," said George Watkins, 57, a postal worker.

"The whole thing is ridiculous. It's quite comical, actually," said Bruce Arnoldt, 45, co-owner of one of the few large employers in town, a company that makes components for heating and cooling equipment. Arnoldt, a Republican, said he would consider voting for Obama in November, but not Clinton.

At the Chamber of Commerce, it has become a source of banter. "I say, 'I can't do this or that today, because I'm bitter,' " said the chamber's director, Debra Keefer. "I feel bad -- they have to speak a million words a day, and then they say something and they have it blown out of proportion."

Such bemusement has been in short supply in Charleroi (pronounced Sharla-roy), once part of a cluster of thriving towns in the Monongahela Valley whose residents worked in the steel mills and lived on the steep slopes above the river. Its name ("Charles the King," borrowed from the Belgian city) bespoke its high ambitions; by 1940, its population was more than 11,000 and it had four movie theaters.

The decline began in the 1960s with the rise of foreign competition and automation. In 1982, the owners of the Allenport steel mill just south of town, which employed 3,000 at its peak, sold the plant's hot rolling mill for making steel tubes to a company in the Philippines. Now in its final months, the mill makes only coils and employs fewer than 300.

The population dropped to less than 5,000 in 2000 (among the many who left was Deborah Jeane Palfrey, better known as the D.C. Madam, convicted this week for running a prostitution ring in Washington).

A third of Charleroi's children live in poverty. At the social services center, Sharyn Giovannelli, 60, who backs Clinton, has to tell elderly residents needing home attendants that there is a waiting list. "It's a disgrace. How do you tell people, 'I can't help you?' " she said.

As Charleroi and the rest of Washington County has shrunk, it has also tilted more Republican. Though Democrats vastly outnumber Republicans in the county, it split evenly between President Bush and Democrat John F. Kerry in 2004. In his San Francisco remarks, Obama paraphrased author Thomas Frank, who argues that many low-income white voters have been distracted by such social issues as same-sex marriage into voting Republican and thereby, he argues, against their economic interests.

Residents took issue with that, noting that it was hardly irrational for them to put less stock in economic planks, given that such promises produce so little. Watkins, the postal worker, said he agrees with Democrats on the Iraq war, but he also puts a premium on a candidate's opposition to abortion, and so would vote for the presumptive Republican nominee, John McCain.

Also confounding the stereotype was George Guzzi, 75, who lives opposite the Allenport mill, where he worked as a millwright and machinist. Taking a break from weeding his yard, nursing a can of light beer, he said he is a lifelong hunter and churchgoer. But he usually votes Democratic, and did not agree with Obama's generalization.

"People are sort of bitter, but they're not carrying around guns and causing crimes like he specified," he said.

That said, while he will vote for Clinton next week, Guzzi said he is willing to excuse Obama -- "everyone makes mistakes" -- and said he would vote for Obama against McCain. Then he turned to look at the mill across the empty street.

"It used to be," he said, "that around 4 o'clock, you had to wait 10 or 15 minutes to cross the street here, because everyone was driving back and forth."
0 Replies
 
teenyboone
 
  1  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 05:05 pm
Vietnamnurse wrote:
Cough! Cough! Back on topic now....

My brother, who lives in Pittsburgh, PA and has been a vociferous Hillary supporter (unbearable to even talk to...screamed if you said anything against her) just voted for Barack Obama!

WOW! He told me her campaign has just turned too destructive and he didn't want McCain to win. OMIGOD!

Hey girl,
Sounds good to me! Cool
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 05:08 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:

I will pray for you. If you consider your shitty, arrogant, white supremacist view of the world to be a blessing...well... there aren't words for it...really...you are so typical of what the Buddha teaches about clinging to "things" only leads to dukkha (loosely translated = suffering)

You are obviously a very miserable person. You constantly try to convince the board how much better you are than the rest of us. I truly can only pity you. I have less in material things than I have ever had but I am happier than I have ever been as I can devote myself to my work and all my basic needs are taken care of. Clinging to material things does not bring happiness, it only creates craving for more and more.


Interesting point about the Buddhist view of materialism.

I believe there is an analogous truth about our reactions to those we encounter in life. The inclination and disposition to find what is good in those we meet probably is indicative of, and contributes to, one's inner peace and contentment. Conversely, a primary focus on what is seen to be hateful or merely disagreeable in others probably indicates, and contributes to, the opposite.

It might be useful for you to consider what might be the causes and consequences of the all-too-frequent and rather bitter judgements of the characters of those who disagree with you , to which you are so inclined - as above.

You might be better off if you did it less.


LOL you might be better off lecturing your political allies here (as well as working on your won character defects) who hurl the most vile and despicable libel towards me on a daily basis. Until you do that, you have no license to lecture me. Like everyone else on this forum, you really know nothing about my personal life. As long as I am here, I will continue to speak out against the blatant racism, sexism, misogyny and homophobia displayed here. It might be useful to clean up your own side of the aisle before telling me how to conduct my life that you know nothing about.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 05:23 pm
Wow!

OK, we might all be well and truly sick of these primaries, but with a turnout like this, it's still an impressive celebration of democracy, no?

Plus, despite all the mutual resentment between the two camps, that's quite a mass mobilisation, engagement, and ground organisation the Democrats are laying out here, in a semi-battleground state...


    "[V]oters across Pennsylvania turned out in record numbers on Tuesday to cast their judgment on Senators Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama." "Joseph Passarella, the director of voter services for Montgomery County, sounding a little harried. "Our phones have been ringing since 6:15 this morning and have been ringing nonstop. We've never had a primary election this busy."' "Voting lines were long and voter-service phone lines were jammed across the state, from Philadelphia in the southeastern part of the state to Beaver County in the west. "We're just overwhelmed," said Geri Shuits, a polling clerk in Beaver County. "I've gotten so many phone calls, I just can't keep up."' "[T]urnout was shaping up to at least double the 26 percent recorded in the 2004 primary, and perhaps approach that of a general election, even though there is no presidential contest on the Republican side. "It's a crazy day," said Stacy Sterner, chief clerk in Lehigh County, who noted that one polling place had 100 people waiting to vote when it opened at 7 a.m. Eastern time. "If I didn't know better," she said, "I would think it was November.""
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 06:02 pm
RAW VOTE IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 06:03 pm
Clinton 0 Obama 0
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 06:03 pm
NBC Projects!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 06:04 pm
Too close to call (whew!) that means that Hill is not going to get the landslide she needed.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 06:08 pm
That should be music to the ears of opponents of the "feminine mystiquei" I should imagine.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 06:12 pm
It is 0219 Am In köln.
CNN is cooking the same old barbaric story.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 06:14 pm
spendius wrote:
That should be music to the ears of opponents of the "feminine mystiquei" I should imagine.



There are like another thousand threads to troll if you are this bored.

I am at my piano AND watching the results, by the time they come in, I will have mastered Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata...Smile
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 06:14 pm
Ramafuchs wrote:
It is 0219 Am In köln.
CNN is cooking the same old barbaric story.


LOL waiting for the 3am call?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 06:23 pm
Roxie-

Stooping to calling people trolls is the very bottom of abject defeat.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 06:25 pm
30372
posts
I have to make research when i have nothing else to do.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 06:30 pm
Quote:
Stooping to calling people trolls is the very bottom of abject defeat.


An easy "reach me down". You are supposed to slam the door and stamp off down the corridor as well.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 06:32 pm
Ramafuchs wrote:
30372
posts
I have to make research when i have nothing else to do.

That's not what you wanna research, Rama. It's guaranteed to sweep out any shred of sanity.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 06:34 pm
Fieneman says that Obama camp has accomplished its purpose, which was to force Hillary to spend herself into bankruptcy in Pennsylvania and without a HUGE WIN she will not be able to go on.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 06:36 pm
I have a weird feeling that Hillary is going to stomp his ass tonight.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 06:50 pm
Here are the results coming in by county. Interesting...some counties are showing a 2 to 1 victory for Clinton, others a 2 to 1 victory for Obama and still others a virtual tie between the two.

Very few have yet to begin reporting though.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/files/elections/2008/by_county/PA_Dem_0422.html?SITE=NPRELN&SECTION=POLITICS
0 Replies
 
 

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