Foxfyre
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2008 04:34 pm
nimh wrote:
spendius wrote:
Will anybody be asking Mr Obama his view on Mr Mugabe's speech today to mark Independence Day in Zimbabwe?

Judging on the kind of news "reporting" I've seen on CNN, I wouldnt bank on it...

Foxfyre wrote:
At least McCain isn't proposing new entitlements, threatening to massively raise taxes

"massively raise taxes", huh? Obama is threatening to massively raise taxes?


If he kicks the capital gains tax back up to where it used to be, that will be a massive tax increase. Rolling back this (both Clinton and Bush reduced this tax) plus some other or all of the Bush tax cuts will in fact be a massive tax increase which he has said he will do. In the most recent debate, I think it was Brian Williams (?) who questioned Obama on his propose raise in the capital gains tax as revenues went up sharply when Clinton cut the tax and went up sharply again when Bush cut it. Obama's deer-caught-in-the-headlights response was that it wasn't a matter money or revenues but a matter of fairness. . . . .

It was not his best moment in the debate.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2008 04:35 pm

Wow, he's, ehmm... <drum roll> bitter. :wink:

(I'll be here all night..)

No, seriously, that was an interesting read. Especially in contrast with the experiences their undercover Obama volunteer recorded:

I was an Obama volunteer

If Obama comes even halfway close on the 22nd, it must doubtlessly be thanks largely to the contrast laid out in these two articles. It's like a contrast between entire eras -- such a clash in mentalities, organisation, drive and strategies.

To pick one random para, I loved this bit, from the Obama article:

Quote:
Other events, of course, are much more effective. Later that day, there was a neighborhood sweep-up event organized by Obama Works, a grassroots public service organization inspired by Obama's community activism background. The event was held at the trash-strewn Chew Park at 19th and Washington. Brooms and garbage bags and plastic gloves were supplied and there was a voter registration table. More than two hundred people showed up, and the park was swept clean.


Yet there are a couple of signs explaining why Hillary is still holding the lead in the Penn. polls anyway. For sure, the "I was a Clinton volunteer" article is a woeful tale of a complete lack of local organisation, lack of any vision or care about local organisation from higher up in the campaign, lack of halfway motivated and positive-minded volunteers - it's all just machine politics, but then badly executed. A striking difference with the excited buzz, massive volunteering, encouragement of bottom-up organisation, advance planning, and tying in of the campaign with community work that marks the Obama volunteer's experience.

But the Obama article also has this:

Quote:


And the Clinton article has this:

Quote:
I was instead assigned to a team in the Northeast's Lawndale section, just a few blocks away from J.C. Melrose Country Club. It's a peaceful Latino and white community of working-class to upper-working-class people. There was no convincing to do, because everyone was already voting for "us." Josephine*, an older woman, and Mike*, a thirtysomething, spent most of the afternoon handing Hillary fliers to people who bought Clinton's cable-news campaign wholesale.

Of the 57 houses we scoured, the highlight was Vincent*, a Hellerman Street resident. "I'm not too sure of this, what's his name, Hussein Osama ... Obama," he said with a straight face, showing no indication he'd just confused a Saudi-born terrorist with a Hawaiian-born politician. "There's no way I'll vote for him. I think he's a poser."

Otherwise, one other person timidly said she was leaning Obama, but took a Hillary placard anyway. Two teenagers yelled, "Hillary Clinton can give me a blowjob" from their window on Robb Street. Everyone was just eager to get back to their Sunday afternoon.


So that's the other side of the story. In short: Camp Obama's got the organisation, it's got the volunteers, it's got the enthusiasm, it's got the foresight - but damn, it's going to need it.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2008 04:40 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
If he kicks the capital gains tax back up to where it used to be, that will be a massive tax increase.


Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but from the top of my head the increase of capital gains tax would apply to those earning over $200,000.

Do you know how many Americans earn over $200,000? Three point six per cent. That is: just one in twentyeight Americans would be affected.

That's a "massive tax increase"?

Foxfyre wrote:
In the most recent debate, I think it was Brian Williams (?) who questioned Obama on his propose raise in the capital gains tax as revenues went up sharply when Clinton cut the tax and went up sharply again when Bush cut it. Obama's deer-caught-in-the-headlights response was that it wasn't a matter money or revenues but a matter of fairness ...

It was not his best moment in the debate.

It was Charlie Gibson, and he was flat out wrong. His brainfart on this has been ridiculed enough since the debate...
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2008 04:43 pm
Nice summary, nimh. I enjoyed reading those two articles too (thanks for pointing us to 'em, Cycloptichorn!)

I agree with your take, not much to add. Except that this made me laugh out loud (the last two lines; I included the rest for context):

Quote:
No one heard when it began, but we soon realized there was a background noise. We stopped to listen: It was a static-riddled voice, like someone was speaking into a megaphone.

... words on a parchment would not be enough to deliver slaves from bondage ...

It was coming from the brownstone next to Cobre.

... it is a story that has seared into my genetic makeup ...

On what looked like the fourth floor, someone had attached a small speaker to the building, and pointed it toward us. The voice picked up.

... the press has scoured every exit poll for the latest evidence of racial polarization ...

"Is that God?" asked an older volunteer.

"No," I said, standing near the brownstone, "that's Obama."


(A guy was broadcasting Obama's Philly speech on continuous loop.)
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2008 04:49 pm
MLK
Mother Thersa
Mandela would hug
all the people around the globe if- only if- Obama as resident
and Hillary clinton as vice.
Far fetchted AMERICAN DREAM.
let the show goes on.
And let the non-Americans die.
Who ever get lected to continue this barbarism will never refurbish the image of USA.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2008 04:59 pm
Ramafuchs wrote:
if- only if- Obama as resident
and Hillary clinton as vice.

I thought you didnt think either of 'em would make a difference?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2008 05:03 pm
nimh wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
If he kicks the capital gains tax back up to where it used to be, that will be a massive tax increase.


Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but from the top of my head the increase of capital gains tax would apply to those earning over $200,000.

Do you know how many Americans earn over $200,000? Three point six per cent. That is: just one in twentyeight Americans would be affected.

That's a "massive tax increase"?

Foxfyre wrote:
In the most recent debate, I think it was Brian Williams (?) who questioned Obama on his propose raise in the capital gains tax as revenues went up sharply when Clinton cut the tax and went up sharply again when Bush cut it. Obama's deer-caught-in-the-headlights response was that it wasn't a matter money or revenues but a matter of fairness ...

It was not his best moment in the debate.

It was Charlie Gibson, and he was flat out wrong. His brainfart on this has been ridiculed enough since the debate...


The right always has those "fear" tactics, but refuse to include who those "massive tax increase" will affect. Typical; no details; use fear.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2008 05:06 pm
nimh
I am more informed than any of the communicator here.

I am quite sure that whoever occupy the white house( President of soup Power) have to strive hard- stuggle a lott- to make this bitter butter a better one.
0 Replies
 
Rockhead
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2008 05:09 pm
Rama, are you becoming an optimist?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2008 05:09 pm
nimh wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
One of the things Obama wanted to convey last night was that he is not guilty by association with people like Keyes and Wright. That while he may be friends with those people, he does not seek their advice or counsel. It was a good answer to the question, but left me wondering about his judgement.

Now, I don't expect either Keyes or Wright will have much to say about Obama's Presidency (should he be elected), but [w]ho will Obama choose to be in his cabinet? Can we risk Obama's judgement to be sound in making those decisions?

Fair question.

I guess one way to start considering this question is by looking who he has taken on as advisors in his campaign.

The National Journal wrote:

Quote:
Although Obama has had a solidly liberal voting record in the Senate -- the most liberal record in 2007, according to an analysis by National Journal -- his policy advisers tend to be moderates. Indeed, Obama explains his roll-call record as a product of votes that push senators to one extreme or the other, and he maintains that his presidency would move the nation into a less ideological, more cooperative era.

What follow are mini-profiles of many of the key players on Obama's political and policy squads.


-----------

Another way to approach the question of what kind of people might surround Obama as President might be to look at what kind of major, institutional figures in the Democratic Party - the kind that could make it to leading government posts - are now endorsing him. And here's today's taste:

Quote:
Boren, Nunn Endorse Obama

Two major stars of the Democratic foreign policy establishment -- former Sens. Sam Nunn and David Boren, have just endorsed Barack Obama and have agreed to serve on his national security team.

Nunn served as the Democratic Party's coverman in foreign policy debates for two decades. He voted against the 1991 Gulf War and thereby gave many other Democrats permission to take that political risk. He's a social conservative in many respects, too. More recently, Nunn has associated himself with the cause of nuclear nonproliferation. He spent 8 years as chairman of the Armed Services committee in the Senate.

Boren left the Senate in 1994 and is a former chairman of what used to be called the Senate Select Committee on intelligence. He also spent 16 years as governor of Oklahoma.

In the statements they provided to the Obama campaign, both Nunn and Boren sound Obama-esque notes. Here's Nunn: "Demonizing the opposition, oversimplifying the issues, and dumbing down the political debate prevent our country from coming together to make tough decisions and tackle our biggest challenges."

Here's Boren: ""Our most urgent task is to end the divisions in our country, to stop the political bickering, and to unite our talents and efforts. Americans of all persuasions are pleading with our political leaders to bring us together. I believe Senator Obama is sincerely committed to that effort. He has made a non-partisan approach to all issues a top priority." Last summer, Boren held private talks with associates of Mayor Mike Bloomberg about a possible independent presidential bid.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2008 05:16 pm
Taken from Reuters: Obama has expanded his lead on Clinton in many national polls and gained ground on her in the next battleground of Pennsylvania ahead of Tuesday's vote, despite furors over his remarks on small-town residents and inflammatory comments by his former pastor.

Clinton's image appeared to take a heavier hit after wrongly claiming she faced sniper fire in Bosnia in 1996. A Washington Post poll this week found more Americans have an unfavorable impression of her than at any time since she entered the national limelight in 1992.

"It hasn't been a bed of roses for Obama. He's had some problems. But she is the one whose negatives are going up," said Phil Noble, head of the South Carolina New Democrats group and an Obama supporter.

Obama has a nearly unassailable lead on the New York senator in delegates to the August nominating convention and in popular votes won in the first three months of the primary battle.

Clinton hopes a big Pennsylvania win ignites a strong run through the final nine contests, fundamentally reordering the race and giving her fresh evidence to argue she is the strongest candidate to face Republican John McCain in November's presidential election.

But polls show Obama has whittled her once substantial double-digit lead in Pennsylvania to single digits. A Zogby poll on Friday put her lead at 4 points, a Rasmussen poll showed it at 3 points and a Los Angeles Times poll earlier this week had it at 5 points.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2008 05:21 pm
Yeah, I was still going to respond to your earlier polls post!

cicerone imposter wrote:
It seems Obama has overtaken Hillary in PA; their scores almost reversed itself according to a recent poll. I'm not sure about the org that did the poll nor its accuracy

Hi, c.i. -- this is what I posted last time you talked about this :wink:

nimh wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
nimh, I thought I saw in today's newspaper that Obama was a little ahead of Hillary after she had a two-digit lead not that long ago.

In Pennsylvania? Maybe the article was about that PPP poll (top of my list), or an earlier PPP poll of 1 April. Those are the only polls ever to have shown Obama ahead in PA. Wouldnt give them too much credence, considering the mass of polls saying otherwise.


The polls that have been conducted this week in Pennsylvania say:

Clinton +3 (Rasmussen)
Clinton +4 (Zogby)
Obama +3 (PPP)
Clinton +9 (Rasmussen)
Clinton +14 (SurveyUSA)
Clinton +5 (Times/Bloomberg)
Clinton +20 (ARG)
Clinton +9 (Strategic Vision)

That would make the median, I guess, a 7-point lead for Clinton, and the average an 8-point lead for Clinton.

But first we gotta wait and see more what effect the debate will have... all of the above polls were conducted wholly before the debate!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2008 05:26 pm
Thank you, nimh; I can always count on you to post the correct poll info.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2008 05:27 pm
manipulating the views of the working people will never make a resident of WH
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2008 05:28 pm
Well- whoever is elected can thrutch all they want on the 3 a.m. call but they will have to deal with Mr Mugabe.

In fact I think all the candidates should be asked about Mr Mugabe's speech today.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2008 05:36 pm
Are we ignorant chatter boxes to admire USA
which sent two powerful airlines to transport
Imalda Marco's shoes from manila to HAWAI:?
people's Power?
with soup sippiping super pwer?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2008 05:43 pm
You are perfect Rama.

Ideal even.

A distraction. The forces you oppose so babyishly have produced exactly the most useful tool they could refine.

What could be better than having a nutcase for an opponent.

And one who loves his wife to boot.

Ye Gods!!
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2008 05:43 pm
spendius wrote:
In fact I think all the candidates should be asked about Mr Mugabe's speech today.

Echo that.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2008 05:43 pm
nimh wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
If he kicks the capital gains tax back up to where it used to be, that will be a massive tax increase.


Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but from the top of my head the increase of capital gains tax would apply to those earning over $200,000.

Do you know how many Americans earn over $200,000? Three point six per cent. That is: just one in twentyeight Americans would be affected.

That's a "massive tax increase"?

Foxfyre wrote:
In the most recent debate, I think it was Brian Williams (?) who questioned Obama on his propose raise in the capital gains tax as revenues went up sharply when Clinton cut the tax and went up sharply again when Bush cut it. Obama's deer-caught-in-the-headlights response was that it wasn't a matter money or revenues but a matter of fairness ...

It was not his best moment in the debate.

It was Charlie Gibson, and he was flat out wrong. His brainfart on this has been ridiculed enough since the debate...


Right it was Charles Gibson, but I don't believe he was wrong. I have long argued that you cannot 'punish' the rich for their success without hurting the poor. Anybody who pays income tax at all are going to pay tax on whatever capital gains they have at whatever the rate that exists. When the Capital Gains Tax was cut during the Clinton administration it did stimulate investment and created jobs; however, it was partially offset by imposition of new taxes such as taxing the social security of any Seniors earning $30k or more. That one was especially cruel as people drawing social security had already paid income tax PLUS social security tax on that money and here it was being taxed again.

Anyhow, for your reading pleasure:

Quote:
Summary of the 1995 Cato Institute study:
The most controversial provision of the Republicans' tax reduction package to be voted on later this fall is the proposal to cut the capital gains tax. The Contract with America proposal would provide a 50 percent exclusion for capital gains, lowering the top effective tax rate to 19.8 percent, and index capital gains for inflation. Opponents charge that those changes would provide a huge tax cut for the rich and substantially reduce federal tax revenues.

Stephen Moore is director of fiscal policy studies at the Cato Institute. John Silvia is chief economist at Kemper Financial Services in Chicago, Illinois.

This study examines the historical experience with the capital gains tax in the United States, as well as the findings of more than 50 economic studies on capital gains taxation. We conclude that a capital gains tax cut would

substantially raise tax collections and increase tax payments by the rich;


increase the rate of capital formation, economic growth, and job creation through the year 2000;


unlock hundreds of billions of dollars of unrealized capital gains, thus promoting more efficient allocation of capital;


expand economic opportunities for the most economically disadvantaged workers by bringing jobs and new businesses to capital-starved areas, such as America's inner cities.

Finally, the study argues that the capital gains tax is so economically inefficient--because of its punitive effect on entrepreneurship, thrift, and investment--that the optimal economic policy for the United States would be to abolish the tax entirely.

The tax on capital gains directly affects investment decisions, the mobility and flow of risk capital . . . the ease or difficulty experienced by new ventures in obtaining capital, and thereby the strength and potential for growth in the economy.

-- President John F. Kennedy, 1963

You're looking at a poor man who thinks the capital gains tax [cut] is the best thing that could happen to this country, because that's when the work will come back. People say capital gains are for the rich, but I've never been hired by a poor man.

-- New Jersey painting contractor

Over the past 10 years perhaps no single economic issue has been embroiled in more controversy than the capital gains tax. Ever since the capital gains tax rate was raised from 20 to 28 percent as part of the 1986 Tax Reform Act, Republicans and many centrist Democrats have tried repeatedly to enact a capital gains tax cut to stimulate job creation and economic growth. Those efforts have been stymied on each occasion by the criticism that the tax cut would be a "giveaway to the rich."

This year the political logjam may finally be broken. A capital gains tax cut is a central feature of the Republican budget plan, which is now making its way through Congress. Earlier this year Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich called tax cuts the "crown jewel" of the GOP Contract with America. Yet, as the prospects for passage grow more promising, the opposition is once again mobilizing for what appears to be an eleventh-hour campaign to defeat the measure. And no one knows whether President Clinton would sign a capital gains tax cut even if Congress were to pass one.

Despite the high profile of this tax issue in Washington, many Americans still have little awareness of why the tax treatment of capital gains should matter to them. This study is an attempt to make the capital gains tax understandable and relevant to ordinary American workers. We intend to walk the reader through the ABCs of the capital gains tax. Here are some of the questions this study addresses:

What is capital?

What is a capital gain?

Why is the capital gains tax important to the U.S. economy?

How does the capital gains tax affect the typical American worker?

Who pays the capital gains tax? Is it a rich man's tax?

Would a capital gains tax cut increase the budget deficit?

How does the U.S. capital gains tax compare with those of other nations?

How would a capital gains tax cut affect jobs and wages?

To answer those questions, this guide synthesizes all of the most recent and well-respected studies of the issue and presents the arguments for and against the proposed tax cut. It is our conclusion from reviewing the historical evidence and more than 50 studies that the GOP tax reduction plan (which would lower the tax rate from 28 to 19.6 percent and index gains for inflation) would increase taxes collected from the rich;
increase the rates of capital formation, economic growth, job creation, and real wages over the next decade; and unlock hundreds of billions of dollars of unrealized capital gains, thus promoting a more efficient capital market.

An even more economically compelling reform would be to eliminate the capital gains tax entirely. Abolishing the capital gains tax would promote entrepreneurship, business creation, U.S. competitiveness, and higher wages for American workers--especially for the most economically disadvantaged among us.
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=1101


And some additional information:

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/st/st307/

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/st/st307/st307d.html

http://c5.zedo.com//ads2/f/404839/1/0/0/305000062/305000062/0/305/42/zz-V1-pop1208020651909.html?a=;l=;p=

http://www.myheritage.org/Features/Archive/2007/013007_Taxes.asp

And not related to capital gains specifically but to tax cuts in general:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pdupont/?id=110010798

Analysis of Capital Gains Tax in General:
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Taxes/wm47.cfm
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 18 Apr, 2008 05:54 pm
Come on Foxy. This is A2K.

Nobody is going to wade through that lot.

At least I hope so.
0 Replies
 
 

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