I imagine that the Democratic nominee will find many talking-points and vulnerabilities to exploit in their run against Bush. After all, as you have never tired of pointing out in the past, Bush isn't exactly a popular fellow. I'm pretty sure your candidate will beat him soundly in the coming election.
Foxfyre wrote:I'm crushed Bear. I thought we were friends. (sniff) Oh well. . . .
But anyway, I DO see a problem with the President of the United States dividing people up into groups instead of seeing us all as Americans sharing the same hopes, dreams, wants, needs, etc. I think dividing people up into groups and pandering to those different groups whether by race, age, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, or any other demographic you want to name is one of the reasons this country is in the mess that it is in.
I think the Jeremiah Wright incident has put Obama at risk of being seen as one who doesn't see us all as Americans but who does divide us all up in his mind. I have detected no such syndrome in Hillary or McCain.
foxy...i just am not a fan of your politics... i'm sure you're a lovely woman who's kind to her mother :wink:
Asherman wrote:I imagine that the Democratic nominee will find many talking-points and vulnerabilities to exploit in their run against Bush. After all, as you have never tired of pointing out in the past, Bush isn't exactly a popular fellow. I'm pretty sure your candidate will beat him soundly in the coming election.
McCain is running as Bush's third term. He holds the same views on nearly every position out there. He WILL be tarred with the same brush, and why not? He deserves to be!
Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre wrote:The difference between me and some 'progressives' who see Obama's race as a badge of honor--if that is the case; I hadn't actually perceived it that way at this time--is that I don't think his being black has anything to do one way or the other with him being racist if he is.
Do you believe him to be racist?
Cycloptichorn
Fox wrote: "... some 'progressives' who see Obama's race as a badge of honor..."
What a bunch of bull. Evidently, Fox sees whites as "a badge of honor."
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:Foxfyre wrote:I'm crushed Bear. I thought we were friends. (sniff) Oh well. . . .
But anyway, I DO see a problem with the President of the United States dividing people up into groups instead of seeing us all as Americans sharing the same hopes, dreams, wants, needs, etc. I think dividing people up into groups and pandering to those different groups whether by race, age, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, or any other demographic you want to name is one of the reasons this country is in the mess that it is in.
I think the Jeremiah Wright incident has put Obama at risk of being seen as one who doesn't see us all as Americans but who does divide us all up in his mind. I have detected no such syndrome in Hillary or McCain.
foxy...i just am not a fan of your politics... i'm sure you're a lovely woman who's kind to her mother :wink:
Heck nobody is a fan of my politics (or religious beliefs, or taste in music, or food preferences) except me. Sooner or later I manage to ruffle everybody's feathers.
I guess Mom thought I was kind enough to her. I got her a new can opener almost every Christmas.
I love you too.
Cycloptichorn wrote:Foxfyre wrote:The difference between me and some 'progressives' who see Obama's race as a badge of honor--if that is the case; I hadn't actually perceived it that way at this time--is that I don't think his being black has anything to do one way or the other with him being racist if he is.
Do you believe him to be racist?
Cycloptichorn
Gut level no. I don't think he is intentionally racist. I no longer see him as the colorblind, we're all in this together, guy that I once believed him to be however. I no longer see him as a man who loves his country and is deeply appreciative of the blessings inherent in being an American. I now see him as a man who sees himself as a black man first and everything else is secondary. And that makes him a less attractive choice to be President.
Foxfyre wrote:Cycloptichorn wrote:Foxfyre wrote:The difference between me and some 'progressives' who see Obama's race as a badge of honor--if that is the case; I hadn't actually perceived it that way at this time--is that I don't think his being black has anything to do one way or the other with him being racist if he is.
Do you believe him to be racist?
Cycloptichorn
Gut level no. I don't think he is intentionally racist. I no longer see him as the colorblind, we're all in this together, guy that I once believed him to be however. I no longer see him as a man who loves his country and is deeply appreciative of the blessings inherent in being an American. I now see him as a man who sees himself as a black man first and everything else is secondary. And that makes him a less attractive choice to be President.
Based on his association with Wright? You believe that he doesn't love his country?
I'm tempted to ask if you are joking. I have no idea how you could have come to such a conclusion. There are no logical links between his association with Wright and what you have described.
I think that you are providing ample proof, Fox, that my theory was true.
Cycloptichorn
Is Obama a racist? He certainly doesn't want to be seen as one, in fact much of his allure has been that he represents a new dawning in race relations. His speeches aren't filled with racial diatribes, and he has specifically denied that he believes that the U.S. invented A.I.D.S. to as a means of waging genocidal war against Blacks. I don't believe that Obama agrees with Rev. Wright's contention that 9/11 was a conspiracy carried out by the U.S., or Israel.
All we can ever know of a persons deepest attitudes is found in what the say on significant occasions, how often they repeat those sayings, and how their behavior. Rev. Wright's church is, according the church, based on the Black Theology of men who called for Black separatism, and violent opposition to the United States government as a "slave" institution. The Symbionese Liberation Army, and the Black Panthers put similar views into action and burned out "exploitive" business, murdered police officers, robbed banks, and etc., etc. There may not be any direct links between Black Theology and Red Hampton, et. al. But, they talk the same talk and it isn't racial harmony.
Obama may not be as paranoid as his good friend and pastor. He may not hold the same racially bigoted, anti-American opinions that Rev. Wright is known for.
It is, however, a perfectly reasonable question to ask why it is that Obama continued an extremely close relationship with such a person for over twenty years ... and didn't recognize that such an association would be political dynamite when revealed. If Obama didn't agree with the views of Rev. Wright, then why make him a close political adviser? Why attend a church regularly and contribute to it for 20 years, if Obama found racial bigotry, anti-American rhetoric, and wild-eyed conspiracy theories objectionable?
Quote:Why attend a church regularly and contribute to it for 20 years, if Obama found racial bigotry, anti-American rhetoric, and wild-eyed conspiracy theories objectionable?
What you describe has very little to do with that church, of course. But, it would require research, even a tiny bit of it, for you to realize this, which we both know you won't do.
Cycloptichorn
What research do you suggest? Do you have a site where Rev. Wright's sermons are available verbatim for the past 20 years? Wright's inflammatory rhetoric isn't new, he's well known for delivering outrageous sermons vilifying White America, Jews, etc. Obama and his campaign staff shuffled the good Reverend into a less visible role as the Obama candidacy began taking off. Even after that, Obama continued his association and regard for Rev. Wright. In an attempt to defuse the situation when the Clinton's launched their last minute bomb, he made his own version of a Nixon's "Checkers Speech". It worked for Nixon, but misuse of campaign contributions doesn't approach the liability of maintaining a close association with a racial bigot for twenty years.
Obama's "Race Speech" was well written and delivered, but it failed to disassociate him from a mentor known for racial bigotry. Hard to spin out of that hole.
As I said earlier, that clip of Sheila Jackson Lee I posted (yesterday I think) is an example of a person who loves her country and stands up and proudly says that. That kind of speech is what many of us were hoping to hear from Obama, but it has never come.
I'm not hearing that from Obama even after all the bruhaha over Jeremiah Wright's anti-American rhetoric hit the front pages of America. And rather than affirming and reassuring us that we are all Americans and sometimes life sucks but we can make it better, his 'let's talk about race' speech didn't really convey that message to those wanting assurance that such talk will include all of us.
I am no fan of Pat Buchanan who I think at times has bordered on being anti-semitic and he is far too radically morally judgmental and also protectionist and anti-free trade to earn my support on much (even though he did once drive his Mercedes to an America First rally.)
But right or wrong, if you can ignore the author for a minute and just focus on the content, in the following essay I think he pretty well nails Obama's problem so far as Obama's image is concerned.
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=25634
Asherman wrote:What research do you suggest? Do you have a site where Rev. Wright's sermons are available verbatim for the past 20 years? Wright's inflammatory rhetoric isn't new, he's well known for delivering outrageous sermons vilifying White America, Jews, etc. Obama and his campaign staff shuffled the good Reverend into a less visible role as the Obama candidacy began taking off. Even after that, Obama continued his association and regard for Rev. Wright. In an attempt to defuse the situation when the Clinton's launched their last minute bomb, he made his own version of a Nixon's "Checkers Speech". It worked for Nixon, but misuse of campaign contributions doesn't approach the liability of maintaining a close association with a racial bigot for twenty years.
Obama's "Race Speech" was well written and delivered, but it failed to disassociate him from a mentor known for racial bigotry. Hard to spin out of that hole.
You say,
Quote: Wright's inflammatory rhetoric isn't new, he's well known for delivering outrageous sermons vilifying White America
Well Known? Amongst whom? Where did you get this information from? See, I think you are either: A) repeating things you've read in right-wing rags, without bothering to research them, or B) simply making **** up.
Link to your evidence, please. As for research, many of Wright's sermons are available, unedited, on Youtube. I suggest you watch some and see if you can come to the same incorrect conclusions about him. I highly doubt you will be able to do so, as he comes off as a perfectly normal Rev. 99% of the time.
Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre wrote:As I said earlier, that clip of Sheila Jackson Lee I posted (yesterday I think) is an example of a person who loves her country and stands up and proudly says that. That kind of speech is what many of us were hoping to hear from Obama, but it has never come.
I'm not hearing that from Obama even after all the bruhaha over Jeremiah Wright's anti-American rhetoric hit the front pages of America. And rather than affirming and reassuring us that we are all Americans and sometimes life sucks but we can make it better, his 'let's talk about race' speech didn't really convey that message to those wanting assurance that such talk will include all of us.
I am no fan of Pat Buchanan who I think at times has bordered on being anti-semitic and he is far too radically morally judgmental and also protectionist and anti-free trade to earn my support on much (even though he did once drive his Mercedes to an America First rally.)
But right or wrong, if you can ignore the author for a minute and just focus on the content, in the following essay I think he pretty well nails Obama's problem so far as Obama's image is concerned.
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=25634
You must not be listening, as Obama has declared his love for America - and affirmed the progress we've made in race relations - many times, both before and after the Wright thing hit.
No, I'm going to stick with my original assessment: that the Wright incident merely represents an opening for Conservatives to attack him, not a valid line of criticism. In this case, your argument is that he hasn't done enough to show his patriotism and love for America. This is a typical right-wing argument used to belittle the leftists they oppose, and actually has very little to do with race or his church at all. You just use his associations with Rev. Wright in order to levy the charges, but they are the same charges you would make towards any Democrat - and the same ones the right-wing has been making all along.
I think it's foolish in the extreme to assume that someone who is willing to run for President, would not in fact love their country. You have no evidence whatsoever that this is the case; but merely would like to repeat the meme enough times until people believe you. I don't think it's going to work. Obama seems to have come through this incident without any major harm to his reputation or his campaign.
Cycloptichorn
You can protest all you want, Cyclop, but I think the reality is pretty much as I have described it. I haven't attached a 'right or wrong' to that, but people who love their country will stand up and praise and bless it where warranted, and won't stand for people 'god damning' it. Of course almost any politician from any side of the political spectrum will give lip service to something they think will please their audience. The trick is in being convincing when they say it.
Also ad hominem references or assertions directed at those of us who see it differently than you do nothing to change our perception. We have Jeremiah Wright and clips and printed statements of Obama affirming him and his church until he was politically forced to distance himself. We have Obama's race speech in its entirety with all that it included and know what it didn't include.
If you wish to change a perception, provide solid ammunication to support your view that the perception is wrong. To call or suggest those opposing Obama as coming from a bigoted or racist perspective only affirms the very perception you oppose.
And, you draw your information and repeat only those things you find in Left-wing rags. You continually call for citations, but all we get from you are links to Left-wing rags, or the Official campaign sites where spin is king.
I don't watch film clips, ever. The reason is that they virtually never are close captioned for the hearing impaired, and I'm about as deaf as a stone. Now if you can refer me to the actual verbatim text of Wright's sermons over the past 20 years, that would be nice. I'd love to compile from those a list of his typical inflammatory sermons.
Would you find the sermons of a White preacher "no big deal" if he said similar things about Blacks and the Black Community from the pulpit ... ONLY one percent of the time? Lets imagine a typical sermon lasts one to two hours. Two hours times 52 weeks in a year, times 20 years. That comes to 2080 hours of sermons. Now you suggest that Wright is only racially offensive one percent of the time, that would be around 21 hours of racially bigoted exhortation from the pulpit. I think you underestimate the inflammatory episodes by a at least an order of magnitude. I'm guessing that Wright is unable to repress himself closer to 10% of the time, and that would make for 208 hours of racist hatred delivered over 20 years. There are 120 minutes in an hour, so between one and twelve minutes of chauvinist diatribe found its way into each of Wrights sermons. Now, you say that's, "no big deal". I disagree, and if you weren't bedazzled by Obama, so would you.
Ash writes
Quote:Now, you say that's, "no big deal". I disagree, and if you weren't bedazzled by Obama, so would you.
Obama's other problem is that he can't give that 'I love America and here's why' speech without offending Jeremiah Wright and those who admire him. He's really between a rock and a hard place there, but the longer this goes on, I think the perception is that his loyalty is with the Jeremiah Wright group and not with America as a whole.
Luckily Foxfrye, Asherman's...views are not what is reflected in the polls concerning the whole Wright thing.
revel wrote:Luckily Foxfrye, Asherman's...views are not what is reflected in the polls concerning the whole Wright thing.
In the Democratic primary, you're right, especially when that albatross for him is overshadowed by Hillary's bigger albatross of sniper fire in Bosnia. I think that will change in the general election when Obama is compared to McCain, an unashamed patriot, and that speech that Obama has never given.
