I'll write a longer answer here in a little while. But I wanted to specifically address this first:
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Also, as a totally separate issue, I have said several times that I want a President who is proud of, loves and appreciates America and who will build from the best that America is even as we deal with problems that need to be dealt with. I do not want a President whose heart and allegiance is with another place and who condemns America in his heart as a racist, bigoted, evil place that would commit genocide on some or any of its people. That is the message of Jeremiah Wright, and that is the message that I believe most Americans reject.
I'm sorry, but that is
not the message of Reverend Wright, and I have no idea how you could think that it is. What amazing hubris you display! You have seen a few clips on TV and the internet. That's it. Probably a total of 2 minutes out of the thousands of hours he's spent preaching. 2 minutes designed to highlight his most objectionable and controversial statements. And yet, you feel qualified to speak of his message?
I'm sure that membership in his congregation had its' ups and downs. Just like most churches. You are painting this fellow as a caricature of a man, a demon, an anti-white devil, for political purposes. And it's absurd and sad to see it happen.
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Please respond with a cogent answer as to why the following aspects of the Pastor Disaster are immaterial:
1) It defies credulity that a 20 year member of this church heard but one outrageous comment by Rev Wright, and that was after he announced his candidacy for President
First, it depends on what you find to be 'outrageous.' For example, Wright has been attacked by right-wingers for saying 'God Damn America!' The full quote he said was 'God Damn America, when we treat our people with inequality!' To me, that's not an outrageous statement in the slightest. Yet it has been treated so by your group for political reasons.
I'm sure he did say some outrageous or objectionable things while Obama was in the crowd, yes. But so what? How does that make him different then other preachers or pastors? I don't buy this holier-then-thou attitude that the right-wing projects and never have. Let's ask McCain's pastor what he thinks about the statements:
Quote:"All preachers have a tendency to overstate because our passion is so intense. But I thought Obama did a fine job in response. He preserved his friendship with his pastor while disagreeing with him," Dan Yeary said.
The guy gets rolling up on stage and says stuff he shouldn't. He's probably well aware of it. Various interviews done have shown that he knew he was going to be a liability to Obama. But that doesn't make him an America-hater, or a devil, or the caricature that your side is making him out to be. Just a fallible man, like you or I.
Quote:2) Somehow renouncing what the Rev has said but not the Rev himself is OK. Should Obama renounce the Rev he might as well renounce the black community and his grandmother? Presumably this means that Obama believes that Rev Wright speaks for the black community and/or his grandmother is every bit a lewd racist as is Rev Wright.
No, it doesn't mean that at all, and that's a moronic thing for you to say, though not surprising. It means that people have greater and deeper elements to them then a 2-minute highlight reel of their worst moments; and that goes for his Grandmother, who I'm sure is a good lady who he loves deeply, and the Black community, which he also cares for deeply despite the fact that they can say or do stupid things from time to time.
You just can't seem to understand the fact that there are good points to people as well as bad points. It's a level of absolutism which is ridiculous in it's simplicity. People's lives are more complicated then that.
Quote:3) Common sense tells us that either Obama joined this particular church , and declared this particular minister his spiritual mentor, simply for political expediency and advantage (and since he never went to service, he never knew what Wright was saying), or for 20 years he has been a stalwart member of the church and a spiritual apprentice of Rev Wright. There is no mid-ground that stands the test of common sense: It is truly unbelievable that Obama was all for the spiritual message of this church and its pastor, and never witnessed any of the outrageous antics of Rev Wright that we have seen on videos.
Once again, a dumb statement based upon a black-and-white view of the world. What is more likely is that Obama's attendance in church has waxed and waned over time, and since he has been elected to office, it has been significantly less then before.
What's amazing to me is that you haven't bothered to do even the slightest bit of research on this topic. Obama has clearly stated that he has discussed his differences with the Rev. many times, including before he even became a member of his church 20 years ago. To you, Obama should have been an absolutist and quit the second something even slightly anti-American came out of the Rev's mouth. But that's ridiculous and stupid. In the real world, people don't have a flag jammed up their ass, and understand that you can criticize things you love without hating them.
Quote:4) What about this entire mess supports the notion that Obama transcends "politics as usual" or "race?"
Obama could have done the easy thing to do, and simply distance himself from the church. He could have thrown Rev. Wright under the bus easily enough. But instead, he didn't lie about his past; he didn't lie about the problem that is really highlighted here, and the one which you and other right-wingers perpetrate with your stupid 'colorblind society' bs: that while racial relations have taken great strides in America over the last century, they still have a long way to go in order for us to reach true equality. Facing and accepting this fact is a difficult thing for us to do. He used his speech to raise the bar of discussion of race in America, and did so in a fashion which may not actually have helped him in this race to the level it could have.
THAT'S the difference with Obama. Hillary and McCain are not even CAPABLE of doing what he did in that speech. He didn't just go with politics as usual, he went with something bigger; and it paid off well for him, as his speech was universally praised and has had real effects starting this racial conversation amongst peoples all over the country.
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Nobody's worried about any actions Obama might do differently because of Wright; all you see is an opportunity, an opening, to show that Obama has allied himself with someone who is easy for you to attack using overly-simplified and stupid arguments, ones which unfortunately can have traction with the uneducated or simply uninformed. Yes, a ten-second clip can make someone look bad. There's no art in that whatsoever. But a deeper look into the same subject reveals that there's not much there to criticize at all.
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Do you really expect us to believe that in such a case you would be demanding "cogent answers" as to why anyone should worry about what McCain might do once elected?
Not me. I think that all religious people are about equally crazy. I really couldn't give a damn what someone who
isn't the candidate themselves has to say about anything. All this huff and puff about what surrogates or associates say; it is meaningless. What is not meaningless is the actual plans and policies the candidates propose, and that is where McCain's true problems lie: he is proposing to continue EACH AND EVERY policy that Bush is currently using, the ones he used to rail against, the ones the country still in most ways disagree with. He's going to get trounced on this argument, because his position has already been rejected, and he lacks the skill to argue people back around to it.
There is no real attack with the Wright thing; only a smear, mixed with innuendo, mixed with a blanketed racial division. That's the best hope for you guys this fall. And that's funny and pathetic all at once
Cycloptichorn
