Obama '08?

If the news media and a2k members made as much fuss about McCain's misstatement about al Qaida, the Wright issue would have disappeared two days ago.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
blatham wrote:
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Quote:
"Obama said his generation benefits from the past. 'And that's part of what this campaign has been about, is to say, let's acknowledge a difficult history, but let's move forward in a practical way to get things done.'

Obama decried what Wright had said, but felt that it was because of Wright's time of life, in the generation that saw segregation. Obama talks about "moving forward".

My question: Why would he subject his children, who have NOT lived through segregation to the hate filled rhetoric of a Wright? Was Wright the appropriate pastor to teach his kids? Would Wright be the one to help these children to get beyond the past?

Yes, indeed. And that's why, for Jewish people of middle years and younger who never lived through the Holocaust, it is entirely divisive and hate-spewing to remind them of this long ago incident and the dangers of anti-semitism and it's why the celebration of Jewish pride and difference is so destructive to the greater community's unity.

If Jewish parents attempt to teach their children that Germans are despicable people and are still persecuting the Jews and still hate the Jews and are still keeping the Jews down and "God da*m Germany", would you not have a problem with that?

I don't think that amongst intelligent Jewish people, that anything of the sort would happen. Right after the war, I was aware of a hatred of Germans, especially by those people who had lost families in the Holocaust. But I know that over the years, this attitude has dissipated by all but the most diehard bigots.

Well, Naziism had then been pretty thoroughly eviscerated from the culture, hadn't it?

So let's make the hypothetical situation parallel. What if, right now in Germany, Jews were statistically far less likely to be given loans for homes than Christians? What if Jewish men were incarcerated at far higher rates than Christian men? What if Jews, by law, were disallowed to marry Christians up until 1972 in parts of or a part of German? What if a major Christian church, which political leaders of a key party, standardly went to that church as an electoral necessity even while that church, up until a few years ago, disallowed the christian kids there to even date Jews?

Then how would the situation look to you?

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Butrflynet wrote:

Butrflynet wrote:
Has anyone watched the videos I linked to a few pages back?

Here's the link again:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/3/20/124426/842/246/480797

Yes. To our 'friends' here, it won't matter a whit.

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Clinton unveils new stimulus package By Jeff Mason
18 minutes ago

TERRE HAUTE, Indiana (Reuters) - Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton unveiled a second economic stimulus package on Thursday as a new poll showed her maintaining her lead over Barack Obama among Democrats.

With surveys showing the economy the top issue on voters' minds, Clinton called for new steps to address a deepening housing crisis, including a $30 billion emergency fund to help states buy foreclosed properties and provide mortgage restructuring.

Clinton overtook Obama in a daily Gallup tracking poll earlier this week and the latest survey showed her leading the Illinois senator 49 percent to 42 percent in the contest to select the Democratic nominee to face Republican Sen. John McCain in November.

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From Editor and Publisher...to be in the NYTimes Magazine this Sunday...the Reverend John Hagee was asked by McCain to endorse him.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003728364

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blatham wrote:

Phoenix32890 wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
blatham wrote:
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Quote:
"Obama said his generation benefits from the past. 'And that's part of what this campaign has been about, is to say, let's acknowledge a difficult history, but let's move forward in a practical way to get things done.'

Obama decried what Wright had said, but felt that it was because of Wright's time of life, in the generation that saw segregation. Obama talks about "moving forward".

My question: Why would he subject his children, who have NOT lived through segregation to the hate filled rhetoric of a Wright? Was Wright the appropriate pastor to teach his kids? Would Wright be the one to help these children to get beyond the past?

Yes, indeed. And that's why, for Jewish people of middle years and younger who never lived through the Holocaust, it is entirely divisive and hate-spewing to remind them of this long ago incident and the dangers of anti-semitism and it's why the celebration of Jewish pride and difference is so destructive to the greater community's unity.

If Jewish parents attempt to teach their children that Germans are despicable people and are still persecuting the Jews and still hate the Jews and are still keeping the Jews down and "God da*m Germany", would you not have a problem with that?

I don't think that amongst intelligent Jewish people, that anything of the sort would happen. Right after the war, I was aware of a hatred of Germans, especially by those people who had lost families in the Holocaust. But I know that over the years, this attitude has dissipated by all but the most diehard bigots.

Well, Naziism had then been pretty thoroughly eviscerated from the culture, hadn't it?

So let's make the hypothetical situation parallel. What if, right now in Germany, Jews were statistically far less likely to be given loans for homes than Christians? What if Jewish men were incarcerated at far higher rates than Christian men? What if Jews, by law, were disallowed to marry Christians up until 1972 in parts of or a part of German? What if a major Christian church, which political leaders of a key party, standardly went to that church as an electoral necessity even while that church, up until a few years ago, disallowed the christian kids there to even date Jews?

Then how would the situation look to you?

Bernie- You chose to ignore my later post, where I postulated that you were throwing in a red herring to avoid answering my question. I asked first!

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Foxfyre wrote:

nimh wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
So far, since the speech, his negatives have been rising among those fence sitters suggesting that he was not convincing to them.

What polls did you see that in?

I've seen several polls that clearly showed his fortunes declining after the "Wright highlights" video hit the networks last weekend. But I havent seen any poll showing that Obama's numbers went down since his speech. In fact, both the Gallup and Rasmussen daily polls suggest it has helped him.

But if you saw any, please let me know, that would be interesting for the Polls etc thread...

I didn't say Obama's polls went down since his speech. Or if I did, I didn't mean to say that. But neither have they come up from their previous lows. They have been essentially unchanged in the last three days according to Rasmussen while McCain's fortunes seem to be improving. Facts. Pesky facts.

I interpret this to mean that he did not succeed in persuading those who have been influenced by Jeremiah Wright's rhetoric. I don't think the speech influenced the pro-Obamaites or the anti-Obamaites one way or the other.

Nimh, I just reread my initial post in this sequence and I see what prompted your question and that I was not clear. So to rephrase:

Obama's negatives went up following the bruhaha over Jeremiah Wright and his negatives have not decreased nor have his positives increased since his speech. Also, against John McCain he appears to have lost a bit of ground since the speech.

As I believe Jeremiah Wright did not phase Obama's support among Obama's admirers nor influence those who had already decided not to vote for Obama, I am assuming that the differences must be among those who have not yet made up their minds. And I see no evidence that his speech was in any way persuasive for them.

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phoenix

Quote:

Why would he subject his children, who have NOT lived through segregation to the hate filled rhetoric of a Wright?

I gave you the why. It's available to your own personal understanding through the history of your people and what they suffered as a persecuted minority. Your culture, for very good reasons, does not omit educating your younger generations about the evils you've suffered in the past because you know they can happen again and because you know that what sits behind them is not gone, though it is diminished.

And would you have it that Jews in America or in Germany remain disadvantaged in the manner I described that blacks yet remain? Is it harder for you, as a Jew, to get a bank loan? Are you, as a Jew, more likely to go to jail for drug possession than a Christian? What if you were? How would Saturdays differ for your community if so?

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FoxFyre:

It usually takes several days for polls to change after events. I would not expect some change for another couple days or more.

Clinton papers show she supported NAFTA unlike she said prior to the Ohio vote. Or is Reverand Wright more of a problem than Hagee for McCain or lying by Hillary?

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nimh wrote:

Again, it seems to be Foxfyre's posts in particular that make me want to respond... there's no "hunting" involved, just those are apparently the ones that I feel need to be responded to.

That's because Foxfyre consistently spreads lies and half-truths that fit her side and then when she gets called on it, she's oh so civil as she pretends that oops, she didn't mean it that way, or oops, she didn't see that new information...oops, oops, oops. It's all such a crock of ****.

But you pretty much know how she operates. I'm just saying this to bring it to the attention of others who may not know her slimy tactics.

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Vietnamnurse wrote:

FoxFyre:

It usually takes several days for polls to change after events. I would not expect some change for another couple days or more.

Clinton papers show she supported NAFTA unlike she said prior to the Ohio vote. Or is Reverand Wright more of a problem than Hagee for McCain or lying by Hillary?

McCain has not embraced Hagee as a long time spiritual mentor nor has he attended Hagee's church for 20 years or put him on the campaign staff. Nor has McCain presumed to criticize Obama; in fact he has opposed judging Obama re his association with Wright. So any comparisons of McCain's association with Hagee vs Obama's association with Wright will probably ring pretty hollow with anybody who likes John McCain. It also keeps the focus on Wright.

Most people accept that all politicians can lie and/or flip flop for political expediency so a few incidents like that are unlikely to sink anybody unless they are so blatant and/or outrageous that they do truly shake an admirer's confidence in that person. Until that point, most people choose to assume criticism of their chosen hero or heroine amounts to little more than smears or hate rhetoric from the other side.

Obama's problem is a close intimate associate with Jeremiah Wright and a 20-year active membership in a congregation that praises Jeremiah Wright in all aspects. Does that association describe Obama's true perspective and views despite his disclaimer?

The folks who have already rejected Obama don't really care.

You folks who love Obama say absolutely not.

The fence sitters I think are not so sure.

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Read the article Foxy...the one that I cited from Editor and Publisher. To be in NYTimes Magazine this Sunday. He hugged him and wanted his support. Sorry.

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Vietnamnurse wrote:

Read the article Foxy...the one that I cited from Editor and Publisher. To be in NYTimes Magazine this Sunday. He hugged him and wanted his support. Sorry.

I think nobody would have faulted Obama--or at least it would have been nothing more than a passing incident--if Obama had just hugged Jeremiah Wright and asked for his support. Sure Obama's opponents would have used it for propaganda purposes just like some of you have used that photo of McCain hugging Bush as propaganda to hurt McCain and are trying to hurt McCain through Hagee now. Unfortunately, that is politics and campaign strategy in America.

But with McCain and Hagee you don't have a 20-year close relationship with large donations contributed to Hagee's church. With McCain and Bush you have as much enmity and opposition of views as you have cooperation and compliments.

As McCain said, you have to be a big tent to represent all of America. If you rejected support purely because you disagreed with somebody about something, you wouldn't have any support at all.

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Foxfyre,

Have you bothered to listen to those two videos I linked to on dailyKOS?

If so, do they alter your impression of Wright at all?

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butryflynet: Rolling Eyes

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Butrflynet wrote:

Foxfyre,

Have you bothered to listen to those two videos I linked to on dailyKOS?

If so, do they alter your impression of Wright at all?

I probably have Butrfly though I don't generally frequent dailyKos which I consider to be a radical leftwing site dedicated to dishonest representation of conservatives and conservative ponts of view. (Yes I am confessing to definite prejudice here.)

I have listened to quite a few of Pastor Wright's sermons and no, everything he says is not objectionable or offensive or inflammatory. But too many of them are though most are probably not as extreme as those clips that have been so prominent in the news. Even ABC reporters--ABC is nobody's idea of a conservative organization--concur that there are racist and anti-American undertones in many if not most Wright sermons. (Somebody posted an ABC story about that on this thread either earlier today or yesterday so I won't bother to look it up.)

At any rate, I'm not the one you need to convince Butrfly. I knew Obama wasn't the guy for me at the time I reviewed his voting record months and months ago. I am an unashamed conservative and I will be voting for the candidate who most closely represents my views.

You also don't need to convince those of you who are madly in love with Obama. All of you already have your minds made up too and it is unlikely that anybody will be producing anything that will shake your confidence.

So that still leaves those folks on the fence that haven't made a decisive choice yet. And I do believe Jeremiah has shaken the confidence of those folks and a couple of really sweet sermons isn't likely to erase the image of "God da*m America and US of KKKA" from their near memories.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Butrflynet wrote:
Foxfyre,

Have you bothered to listen to those two videos I linked to on dailyKOS?

If so, do they alter your impression of Wright at all?

I probably have Butrfly

You mean you don't know????

Have you been hanging out with Teflon John McCain?

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Forget this Wright bullshit. Passportgate will blow this story away!

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Vietnamnurse wrote:

butryflynet:

I don't know why people even bother responding to FF. I tried and she cannot be reasoned with.

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Of course, the fact that this is March - and the election is in November - works in Obama's benefit. This will be old, old news before too long.

Now, some part of it will remain. There's not much doubt that those who are looking for reasons not to vote for Obama will get some mileage out of this. But it will fade from the consciouness of the public far faster then some would prefer. And, I must say, as it does not involve statements by Obama himself, and most people don't seem to believe that he shares the guy's views, it is removed from him to a large enough degree that it certainly does not disqualify Obama as a candidate.

For example, when I talk about other events - it's just now breaking that employees of the State Dept. accessed Obama's passport records illegally and two were fired over it. And they didn't bother to tell Obama. There's little doubt that Condi Rice knew about this, which is essentially the same as the WH knowing it. This is going to be a rather bigger story over the next week.

It also sets up the impression that elements of the current administration are up to no good, in an attempt to sabotage Obama... shades of Bush Senior's doing the same thing to Bill Clinton in 92??

Cycloptichorn

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