cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 17 Mar, 2008 10:24 am
How many parishioners have ever told their priest/minister that their sermons are wrong? Please raise your hands.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Mon 17 Mar, 2008 10:32 am
Raising hand here. I have been in a congregation where the board asked the pastor to resign because they didn't like what they were hearing from the pulpit. I have visited churches and moved on to better pastures when I didn't like what I heard from the pulpit.

And I guarantee, the very first time the pastor of a church presumed to say "God d*mn America" or "The US of KKK", he or I would be leaving that congregation immediately.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Mon 17 Mar, 2008 10:33 am
nappyheadedhohoho wrote:
Democrat Taylor Marsh on "Why Superdelegates Exist" and a lot of other opinion on the Wright/Obama mess. (Comments from her fellow-Democrats are interesting)

Quote:
The latest from Senator Obama is that he wasn't in the pews when Reverend Wright used "white arrogance" and "the United States of White America" on July 22, disputing the NewsMax report that's been circulating. I didn't link to that piece or cover it because, after all, we are talking about NewsMax . But one thing that will clear all of this up is if Senator Obama will release his schedule. Seems simple enough.

But the reality is that this is the second time Senator Obama's judgment has come into question. He's had a long relationship with Tony Rezko, too. Now his preacher of two decades is damaging Senator Obama, whether the Clinton campaign wants to talk about it or not. After all, Reverend Wright is no Geraldine Ferraro, even though people want to equate the two.

Maybe Democratic voters, as well as Republican and independents that turn Democratic for a day, don't care what Wright and Rezko will bring in the general election, but frankly, the Democratic party elders should. That's why they exist, though let me say again that the caucus system is undemocratic, and if the DNC had a better plan for nominating a candidate we wouldn't be in this mess. But they don't, so we are. But the sad fact is that whether the DC Democrats, Obama's supporters and the Obama blogs want to admit it or not, Wright has damaged the Obama brand terribly.

Got judgment?

Maybe the voters will decide the nominee. But if things stay even, the superdelegates may have to do it. If so, they will have to decide whether Senator Obama can withstand the Republican onslaught already rolling out on all things Reverend Wright. On Clinton's side, she has her negatives as well, but also the reality that Obama's supporters may not support her. As I said recently, if Obama is the nominee, taking myself out of this analysis, there is no evidence Clinton supporters will support Obama either, a fact that's hardened recently. At a time when this was supposed to be a Democratic year, challenges to manifesting our presidential dreams are definitely afoot.

The above video adds another chapter to the How Much Did Senator Obama Know About Reverend Wright's Views? book, now being compiled across the political spectrum. When I saw it, I further verified its authenticity through this video via CBS2 Chicago. The warm greeting and exchange from Senator Obama towards his minister took place last June 2007.


http://www.taylormarsh.com/archives_view.php?id=27243


One of the biggest pro-Hillary shills on the web has declared Obama hurt by this?

Oh noez, what will he do?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Mon 17 Mar, 2008 10:36 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Raising hand here. I have been in a congregation where the board asked the pastor to resign because they didn't like what they were hearing from the pulpit. I have visited churches and moved on to better pastures when I didn't like what I heard from the pulpit.

And I guarantee, the very first time the pastor of a church presumed to say "God d*mn America" or "The US of KKK", he or I would be leaving that congregation immediately.


Would you have left a congregation where the preacher said these things:

Quote:
Damn you rich! You already have your compensation.

Damn you who are well-fed! You will know hunger.

Damn you who laugh now! You will weep and grieve.

Damn you when everybody speaks well of you!


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Mon 17 Mar, 2008 10:50 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Raising hand here. I have been in a congregation where the board asked the pastor to resign because they didn't like what they were hearing from the pulpit. I have visited churches and moved on to better pastures when I didn't like what I heard from the pulpit.

And I guarantee, the very first time the pastor of a church presumed to say "God d*mn America" or "The US of KKK", he or I would be leaving that congregation immediately.


Foxfyre...

If a pastor said that Jewish people who refuse to accept Jesus as their savior would be excluded from heaven and would be separated from G_d for eternity...

... would that get you to leave?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Mon 17 Mar, 2008 10:51 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Raising hand here. I have been in a congregation where the board asked the pastor to resign because they didn't like what they were hearing from the pulpit. I have visited churches and moved on to better pastures when I didn't like what I heard from the pulpit.

And I guarantee, the very first time the pastor of a church presumed to say "God d*mn America" or "The US of KKK", he or I would be leaving that congregation immediately.


Would you have left a congregation where the preacher said these things:

Quote:
Damn you rich! You already have your compensation.

Damn you who are well-fed! You will know hunger.

Damn you who laugh now! You will weep and grieve.

Damn you when everybody speaks well of you!


Cycloptichorn


It would depend on the context. I personally have preached a similar passage from Deuteronomy as a teaching exercise of the ancient perceptions of requirements for keeping the "Law" coupled with the blessings of Jesus who has released us from requirements of the Law.

I would not stay in a congregation with a pastor who damned America, claimed that it 'invented AIDS to destroy all the black people' or was the KKK. I have no problem with preaching about the evils of prejudice and discrimination and the subtle ways that this can still occur in society. But to not be proud of a country that has embraced civil rights, embodied elimination of racism in its constitution, initiated affirmative action to correct residual inequites, etc., and who has elevated people of color to high levels of government, and then say the things Jeremiah Wright says? I won't accept that. I cannot believe anybody would stay in that congregation who did not support or tolerate that kind of unconscionable hate rhetoric.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Mon 17 Mar, 2008 10:54 am
ebrown_p wrote:

Foxfyre...

If a pastor said that Jewish people who refuse to accept Jesus as their savior would be excluded from heaven and would be separated from G_d for eternity...

... would that get you to leave?



Of course not, this is one of those things that the followers of the Theory of Christianity believe in their core.

This isn't too severe for them, 5 billion people currently alive are going to burn in hell.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Mon 17 Mar, 2008 10:55 am
maporsche wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:

Foxfyre...

If a pastor said that Jewish people who refuse to accept Jesus as their savior would be excluded from heaven and would be separated from G_d for eternity...

... would that get you to leave?



Of course not, this is one of those things that the followers of the Theory of Christianity believe in their core.

This isn't too severe for them, 5 billion people currently alive are going to burn in hell.


Some fundamentalists do believe this. Not just of the Jews but they believe it of anybody who rejects Christ.

This is not a teaching of the vast majority of Christians or Christian doctrine however.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Mon 17 Mar, 2008 10:56 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Raising hand here. I have been in a congregation where the board asked the pastor to resign because they didn't like what they were hearing from the pulpit. I have visited churches and moved on to better pastures when I didn't like what I heard from the pulpit.

And I guarantee, the very first time the pastor of a church presumed to say "God d*mn America" or "The US of KKK", he or I would be leaving that congregation immediately.


Would you have left a congregation where the preacher said these things:

Quote:
Damn you rich! You already have your compensation.

Damn you who are well-fed! You will know hunger.

Damn you who laugh now! You will weep and grieve.

Damn you when everybody speaks well of you!


Cycloptichorn


It would depend on the context. I personally have preached a similar passage from Deuteronomy as a teaching exercise of the ancient perceptions of requirements for keeping the "Law" coupled with the blessings of Jesus who has released us from requirements of the Law.

I would not stay in a congregation with a pastor who damned America, claimed that it 'invented AIDS to destroy all the black people' or was the KKK. I have no problem with preaching about the evils of prejudice and discrimination and the subtle ways that this can still occur in society. But to not be proud of a country that has embraced civil rights, embodied elimination of racism in its constitution, initiated affirmative action to correct residual inequites, etc., and who has elevated people of color to high levels of government, and then say the things Jeremiah Wright says? I won't accept that. I cannot believe anybody would not stay in that congregation who did not support that kind of unconscionable hate rhetoric.


Seeing as those were all stated by Jesus Christ himself, I think that you would in fact stay in that congregation.

The point is; nothing is so sacred and holy that it cannot be damned. This merely plays into the right-wing uber-patriotic fetish where people are not allowed to criticize America or Whites without being 'divisive.'

It's all about one's personal mores. I wouldn't sit in a church who preached against Gays or Abortion; I'd get up and walk out, because I couldn't stand their hateful rhetoric. But I guarantee that most people hear those things in church and say nothing about it.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Mon 17 Mar, 2008 11:00 am
"Democratic lawmakers are becoming persuaded that Sen. Barack Obama would have a more positive impact on other Democrats on the November ballot than Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton"

Quote:
Eyeing Obama coattails

The Hill
03/12/08

Democratic lawmakers are becoming persuaded that Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) would have a more positive impact on other Democrats on the November ballot than Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.).

Obama's advantage over Clinton would be most pronounced in the Southern and Western states President Bush carried in 2000 and 2004, say lawmakers interviewed by The Hill. In total, 32 members of Congress from these "red states" have endorsed Obama. Twenty-two lawmakers from those states have backed Clinton.

Obama will "bring new people into the process in Southern states, there's no question about it," said Rep. James Clyburn, the House Democratic whip from South Carolina. "In these Southern states he's bringing out more people, young people, African-Americans. They're being energized by him."

Clyburn, who has stayed neutral in the primary, said Obama at the top of the ticket would "certainly" do more to help other Democratic candidates, citing South Carolina and Mississippi specifically.

Bush won both South Carolina and Mississippi by nearly 20 points.

A Southern House Democrat who faces a difficult reelection this year said Obama "has the potential to bring more folks to the polls and swell the ranks of Democrats." The lawmaker, who has not endorsed either candidate, declined to speak on the record because Clinton may become the nominee.

Lawmakers have begun looking more closely at how the nominee may affect their own reelections or influence races in their states. Sensing this, Obama supporters have pushed their colleagues to consider how Obama and Clinton would impact Democratic candidates in November.

"I've had quiet conversations with a number of members," said Rep. Rick Boucher (D-Va.), who has endorsed Obama. "I don't think there's any doubt about it, Obama would be more helpful to House candidates virtually everywhere.

"He has unique appeal to moderates, independents and Republicans," said Boucher. "And I think he has enormous crossover potential."

Democrats backing Clinton, not surprisingly, have a different take. Reps. Alcee Hastings (Fla.) and Vic Snyder (Ark.), two Southern Democrats, say Obama and Clinton would be equally helpful at the head of the ticket.

The impact of the party nominee on House races has become a subject of interest to Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee Chairman Chris Van Hollen (Md.). He said his committee may begin poll-testing how the nomination of Obama or Clinton could affect various races.

Rep. David Scott (D-Ga.), who at first endorsed Clinton but then switched to Obama, said he thought Obama would do more to help Democratic candidates in his state by boosting Democratic turnout. He said the nominee's influence on other races "is a general thrust of the conversation" in the House between Obama supporters and lawmakers on the fence.

That argument has proved persuasive with many red-state superdelegates, whose votes would go toward determining the party nominee at a brokered convention. Obama has won a slew of endorsements from Democrats representing solidly Republican states and districts. Obama has picked up congressional endorsements from Georgia, Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee, Alabama, North and South Dakota, Mississippi, Kentucky, and West Virginia. Clinton has not collected congressional endorsements from any of these states, according to a tally kept by The Hill.

Former Sen. Tom Daschle (D-S.D.), an Obama booster, touted the disparity during a recent appearance on NBC's "Meet the Press."

"You ask any elected official, virtually any elected official west of the Mississippi, and they say, without equivocation, ?'We want Barack Obama at the top of the ticket.' They'll say that privately," said Daschle.

Several Democratic governors from Western states that Bush won have endorsed Obama, including Kathleen Sebelius of Kansas and Janet Napolitano of Arizona.

Rep. Gene Taylor (D-Miss.), who has not endorsed in the race, said that Obama would certainly increase Democratic turnout in Mississippi but he added he could not predict exactly how that would affect the political landscape.

"Obviously Obama has a huge African-American turnout," said Taylor. "But there are still some folks who can't vote for a black person, and they're going to vote, too."

Taylor said that Clinton remains a divisive figure in his home state: "It's easy to say the Clintons were not very popular in Mississippi."

Obama's campaign manager David Plouffe argued in a conference call with reporters Wednesday that Clinton would fare poorly in red states. [..]

"I think it's important to the party ?- the Democratic Party simply cannot afford to have another election where we have a very narrow playing field, and where we have no margin of error," said Plouffe. "I think that the comments speak to the fact that states like North Carolina, Virginia, Colorado, are going to be very difficult for Sen. Clinton to put in play."

Republicans have indicated they would try to use Clinton's unpopularity in conservative areas of the country against Democratic candidates.

At the end of last year, Republicans produced an online political advertisement that compared Clinton with Sen. Mary Landrieu (La.), one of the Senate's most vulnerable Democrats. The ad described Landrieu and Clinton as "two peas in a pod."
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Mon 17 Mar, 2008 11:04 am
Quote:
Contest asks aspiring filmmakers to create TV ad promoting Obama

The Boston Globe
March 14, 2008

Calling all aspiring filmmakers, especially those who like Barack Obama.

MoveOn.org, the influential antiwar group that claims 3.2 million members, announced yesterday that it is holding a contest to create a 30-second television advertisement promoting the Democrat.

The prize: The spot will air nationally and the winner will get a $20,000 gift certificate for a camera and editing package.

After an online vote to pick 15 finalists. The judges include Boston-bred stars Ben Affleck and Matt Damon, whose low-budget movie "Good Will Hunting" launched them to stardom; filmmaker Oliver Stone; civil rights leader Jesse Jackson; and musicians John Legend, Moby, and Eddie Vedder.

In a Web video announcing the contest, dubbed "Obama in 30 seconds," Eli Pariser, MoveOn.org's executive director, says: "Grass-roots energy helped propel Barack Obama into victory after victory. And now we need your grass-roots creativity to help put Barack Obama over the top."

The group, which has endorsed Obama, held a contest in 2004 for ads opposing President Bush. The winner showed children picking up trash and working on assembly lines with the message: "Guess who's going to pay off President Bush's $1 trillion deficit?"

Entries must show Obama in a positive light, cannot mention Hillary Clinton, and can reference John McCain or Bush only in contrast to Obama.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Mon 17 Mar, 2008 11:21 am
Just saw this, Hillary's big Iraq speech:

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/hillarys_speech_on_iraq_mccain.php

A couple of things struck me:

Quote:
Good morning. I want to thank Secretary West for his years of service, not only as Secretary of the Army, but also to the Veteran's Administration, to our men and women in uniform, to our country. I certainly do remember that trip to Bosnia, and as Togo said, there was a saying around the White House that if a place was too small, too poor, or too dangerous, the president couldn't go, so send the First Lady. That's where we went.

I remember landing under sniper fire. There was supposed to be some kind of a greeting ceremony at the airport, but instead we just ran with our heads down to get into the vehicles to get to our base.


Sinbad, the comedian, was with her (along with Chelsea Clinton and Sheryl Crow) and gives a very different account of their USO tour (and it was just a USO tour, not some sort of negotiations or something):

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/sleuth/2008/03/sinbad_unloads_on_hillary_clin.html

And in re-reading that, I see that Clinton's earlier account merely says, "They said there might be sniper fire." He disagreed with that:

Quote:
Threat of bullets? Sinbad doesn't remember that, either.

"I never felt that I was in a dangerous position. I never felt being in a sense of peril, or 'Oh, God, I hope I'm going to be OK when I get out of this helicopter or when I get out of his tank.'"


But now it's morphed into actual sniper fire, not just the threat of it?


Then:

Quote:
The mistakes in Iraq are not the responsibility of our men and women in uniform but of their Commander-in-Chief. From the decision to rush to war without allowing the weapons inspectors to finish their work or waiting for diplomacy to run its course.


Who could have voted to stop that, and didn't?
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Mon 17 Mar, 2008 11:23 am
Sinbad is lying to protect his candidate and a fellow black man....
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Mon 17 Mar, 2008 11:25 am
Even if you just take Hillary's two accounts it looks bad.

1.) "They said there might be sniper fire."

2.) "I remember landing under sniper fire."
0 Replies
 
nappyheadedhohoho
 
  1  
Mon 17 Mar, 2008 11:28 am
Rasmussen: Just 8% have favorable opinion of Obama's pastor
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Mon 17 Mar, 2008 11:30 am
Put this on the wrong thread btw -- I started to post here, decided to put it on the Hillary thread, opened a new window to copy and paste, but then clicked "submit" in the wrong window, sorry.

nappy, and what percent have a favorable opinion of Obama?
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Mon 17 Mar, 2008 11:35 am
This is pertinent, though (from the Rasmussen link):

Quote:
Most voters, 56%, said Wright's comments made them less likely to vote for Obama. That figure includes 44% of Democrats. Just 11% of voters say they are more likely to vote for Obama because of Wright's comments.


I wonder how that works out in terms of pre-existing tendencies, though. Seems like the biggest bite would be out of Independents/ Republicans, since Hillary's been getting 44% of the vote in terms of national opinion polls.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Mon 17 Mar, 2008 12:17 pm
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/03/time_to_buy_hillary_clinton.html
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Mon 17 Mar, 2008 12:19 pm
Obama plans major race speech tomorrow

Barack Obama will give a major speech on "the larger issue of race in this campaign," he told reporters in Monaca, PA just now.

He was pressed there, as he has been at recent appearances, on statements by his former pastor, Jeremiah Wright.

"I am going to be talking about not just Reverend Wright, but the larger issue of race in this campaign," he said.

He added that he would "talk about how some of these issues are perceived from within the black church issue for example," he said.

He also briefly defended Wright from the image that has come through in a handful of repeatedly televised clips from recent Wright sermons.

"The caricature that's being painted of him is not accurate," he said.

The speech could offer Obama an opportunity to move past the controversy over his pastor, and to turn the conversation to a topic he'd rather focus on: his Christian faith. But the speech also guarantees that the Wright story will continue to dominate political headlines.

Mitt Romney's attempt directly to address his Mormonism last year never decisively put the issue to rest for some voters.

Obama's schedule puts him in Philadelphia tomorrow.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 17 Mar, 2008 12:31 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Raising hand here. I have been in a congregation where the board asked the pastor to resign because they didn't like what they were hearing from the pulpit. I have visited churches and moved on to better pastures when I didn't like what I heard from the pulpit.

And I guarantee, the very first time the pastor of a church presumed to say "God d*mn America" or "The US of KKK", he or I would be leaving that congregation immediately.


Would you have left a congregation where the preacher said these things:

Quote:
Damn you rich! You already have your compensation.

Damn you who are well-fed! You will know hunger.

Damn you who laugh now! You will weep and grieve.

Damn you when everybody speaks well of you!


Cycloptichorn


It would depend on the context. I personally have preached a similar passage from Deuteronomy as a teaching exercise of the ancient perceptions of requirements for keeping the "Law" coupled with the blessings of Jesus who has released us from requirements of the Law.

I would not stay in a congregation with a pastor who damned America, claimed that it 'invented AIDS to destroy all the black people' or was the KKK. I have no problem with preaching about the evils of prejudice and discrimination and the subtle ways that this can still occur in society. But to not be proud of a country that has embraced civil rights, embodied elimination of racism in its constitution, initiated affirmative action to correct residual inequites, etc., and who has elevated people of color to high levels of government, and then say the things Jeremiah Wright says? I won't accept that. I cannot believe anybody would not stay in that congregation who did not support that kind of unconscionable hate rhetoric.


Seeing as those were all stated by Jesus Christ himself, I think that you would in fact stay in that congregation.

The point is; nothing is so sacred and holy that it cannot be damned. This merely plays into the right-wing uber-patriotic fetish where people are not allowed to criticize America or Whites without being 'divisive.'

It's all about one's personal mores. I wouldn't sit in a church who preached against Gays or Abortion; I'd get up and walk out, because I couldn't stand their hateful rhetoric. But I guarantee that most people hear those things in church and say nothing about it.
Cycloptichorn


My point, precisely, but we always have the likes of Fox who's mores are aabove the other "sinners." Fox doesn't represent the "typical" or "normal" believer of any religion.
0 Replies
 
 

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