ebrown p
 
  1  
Sat 8 Mar, 2008 03:06 pm
All this debate about NAFTA seems off topic here, since Obama and Clinton (at least in the past few years) have basically the same position.

A separate NAFTA thread might be interesting.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 8 Mar, 2008 03:10 pm
revel, We all benefited from comparative advantage. Countries that promote good education, a healthy citizenry, and the maintenance of infrastructure will remain competitive in the world markets.

Unfortunately, our educational system has fallen behind other developed countries in the number of students entering engineering and science. This is a handicap that will affect our economy for many decades in the future, and the sustainment of superpower status of our economy will be almost impossible.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Sat 8 Mar, 2008 03:26 pm
revel wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
Some workers have suffered, far more have benefitted - and all pay lower prices for the things they consume. Far better to facilitate the economic growth of our neighbor, Mexico through free and fair trade than to suffer the consequences of an enormous economic disparity across the border.

Economic protectionism leads only to high prices; low incentives for innovation & quality; and stagnation for all.


How have workers benefited from their jobs going over seas? If you don't have a job it don't matter how low wal-mart puts their prices. Prices are rising in any event. Plus; with recent recalls; I just think we should have more home factories with our own workers working them. I am not saying we should do away with trading all together but neither does it have to be all the other way as it is now.


U.S. exports to both Canada and Mexico have increased since NAFTA. The workers who produced these extra exports came out ahead. Others in industries unable to compete with Mexican and Canadian products were losers. There were more winners than losers. In general the most economically efficient producers in all three countries became winners, and that benefits everyone.

Alternatively we could build protectionist trade barriers with Mexico and, as a result, see even more immigration from them - also driving down the competitive wages of American workers.

U.S. industries living happily behind protectionist trade barriers immunizing them from foreign competition have little incentive to innovate to lower costs or improve quality. This harms all their domestic consumers. It also leaves them unable to compete in the international marketplace.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Sat 8 Mar, 2008 03:40 pm
Maybe if we lowered environmental standards and workers rights standards we'd be better able to compete in NAFTA.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Sat 8 Mar, 2008 04:53 pm
Wyoming Caucus Results - 12 delegates

91% reporting

Obama 58%
Clinton 41%
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Sat 8 Mar, 2008 05:29 pm
Obama wins WY.

On to the mighty Mississippi.

OBAMARAMA

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Sat 8 Mar, 2008 06:10 pm
Well, that is good news.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Sat 8 Mar, 2008 06:22 pm
It is!

And seems to be another one of those 60/40's.

That's a relief. This week has been crazy, and I was concerned for a while that things were really getting out of whack.

Obama's campaign has always had a long-term plan -- it looked for a while like it wouldn't need to be as long-term as originally thought, but his performance in Ohio and Texas was still better than his campaign thought he would do back in February.

Hillary's campaign, meanwhile, has had an up-until-Super-Tuesday plan. Then triage.

What I have been concerned about this week, as things went goofy in several different ways, is the possibility that Hillary's campaign had managed to put together a viable post-Super-Tuesday plan. An example of that was actively challenging in Wyoming rather than writing it off as they had been doing in similar states, and which was widely acknowledged to have been a tactical error. I had been reading things about how Obama's campaign was there earlier and seemed better-organized, but Hillary's campaign showed up not too much later and was also working hard. There was a "Clinton Blitzkreig" -- Bill and Hillary and Chelsea all working the state.

But -- with 96% of precincts reporting, so of course this still could change -- none of it seemed to work. It seems that Obama still won, decisively.

I think that's really reassuring in terms of where things will go from here, and whether Obama's long-term plan will in fact work.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Sat 8 Mar, 2008 08:22 pm
obamarama... cyclo i bet you own every spice girls cd...
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Sat 8 Mar, 2008 09:35 pm
ehBeth wrote:
Heilemann: Can Obama Handle the Awakened Media Beast?

Quote:
By now, of course, it's clear to anyone with two eyes in his head that the kid-gloves days are over for Obama. Suddenly, the press is treating him more like it has handled Clinton since, er, day one.


Yeah. Instead of treating one candidate with relative kid gloves and smearing the other, the media has learned its lesson! From now on, they'll just smear BOTH candidates:

Quote:
CNN's politics page has a big feature story headlined "Fellow Legislator Saw Little 'Bold' About Obama" with a introspective, solemn pic of Obama. Then you read the story. And the colleague is a guy named Dan Cronin, a Republican.

Shouldn't they have spoken to one of the Republicans who now has positive things to say about Obama? Oh, wait ...

Late Update: Turns out Cronin is actually a member of McCain's Illinois leadership team. (Good catch by TPM Reader TK) At this point, this amounts to CNN being spoofed. Correction or some explanation is in order, guys.

(link)

Unfrigginbelievable. Maybe it should be the network media journalists who should finally get with the program.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 8 Mar, 2008 09:49 pm
They're too friggin stupid and lazy to do their homework before they put it to print.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Sat 8 Mar, 2008 10:29 pm
A storm of grassroots enthusiasm in Wyoming today:

Quote:
Obama declared projected winner in Wyoming
Party strains to accommodate crowds; candidates seek boost for Mississippi


CASPER, Wyo. - Barack Obama is the projected winner in Wyoming's Democratic caucuses on Saturday, clenching a majority of the 12 delegates, NBC News declared.

The Illinois senator led rival Hillary Rodham Clinton throughout the day in voting returns as Democrats crowded caucuses in Wyoming, the latest contest in the candidates' close, hard-fought race for the party's presidential nomination.

<snip>

The epic battle between Clinton and Obama has given Wyoming's 59,000 registered Democrats ?- outnumbered more than 2-to-1 by Republicans in Vice President Dick Cheney's home state ?- a relevancy they have not experienced in a presidential race in nearly 50 years.

Only 12 national convention delegates were at stake. During the first caucuses of the day, it appeared the state's Democrats were showing up in record numbers. In 2004, a mere 675 people statewide took part in the caucuses.

In Casper, home of the state party's headquarters, hundreds were lined up at the site of the Natrona County caucus. The location was a hotel meeting room with a capacity of 500. Some 7,700 registered Democrats live in the county.

Voter deluge

In Sweetwater County, more than 500 people crowded into a high school auditorium and another 500 were lined up to get inside.

"I'm worried about where we're going to put them all. But I guess everybody's got the same problem," said Joyce Corcoran, a local party official. "So far we're OK. But man, they keep coming."

Party officials were struggling with how to handle the overflow crowds. The start of the Converse County caucus was delayed due to long lines.

In Cheyenne, scores of late arrivers were turned away when party officials stopped allowing people to get in line outside the Civic Center at 11 a.m. EST. A party worker stood at the end of the line with a sign reading, "End of the line. Caucus rules require the voter registration process to be closed at this time."

State party spokesman Bill Luckett said they were obligated to follow its rules as well as those of the Democratic National Committee regarding caucus procedures.

Later, state party officials said they would accept provisional ballots from about 20 people who remained at the caucus site and would seek approval from both campaigns to count their votes.

While Wyoming will not give either candidate much in terms of elected delegates, wins in that state and upcoming contests could help sway the 800 so-called superdelegates ?- senior party officials and lawmakers whose votes are not linked to state primary or caucus results. [..]

<snip>
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Sat 8 Mar, 2008 10:52 pm
In reading and listening to Charles Krauthammer over the last couple of months I've formed the distinct impression that he not only regards Obama well, but that he would have liked to believe his rhetoric.

The following article though seems to have shut the door firmly on any possible support, by Krauthammer, for Obama.

National Review Article

Quote:
Is he really who he says he is? I'm not talking about scurrilous innuendo about his origins, religion, or upbringing. I'm talking about the full-fledged man who presents himself to the country in remarkably grandiose terms as a healer, a conciliator, a uniter.


Quote:
When Americans are asked who can unite us, 67 percent say Obama versus 34 percent for Clinton, with McCain at 51. How did Obama pull that off? By riding one of the great non sequiturs of modern American politics.


Quote:
The premise here is true ?- Obama does transcend race; he has not run as a candidate of minority grievance; his vision of America is unmistakably post-racial ?- but the conclusion does not necessarily follow. It is merely suggested in Obama's rhetorically brilliant celebration of American unity: "young and old, rich and poor, black and white, Latino and Asian ?- who are tired of a politics that divides us." Hence "the choice in this election is not between regions or religions or genders. It's not about rich versus poor; young versus old; and it is not about black versus white. It's about the past versus the future."

The effect of such sweeping invocations of unity is electric, particularly because race is the deepest and most tragic of all American divisions, and this invocation is being delivered by a man who takes us powerfully beyond it. The implication is that he is therefore uniquely qualified to transcend all our other divisions.

It is not an idle suggestion. It could be true. The problem is that Obama's own history suggests that, in his case at least, it is not. Indeed, his Senate record quite belies the implication.


And herein lies the source of my greatest difficulty with Obama's candidacy.

As Krauthammer goes on to detail, there is absolutely no reason to believe Obama will live up to his rhetoric if elected.

His own advisor was, quite pathetically, unable to provide a pundit with a single example of Obama reaching across the aisle to obtain bi-partisan agreement.

Damage control by the Campaign led to a list of rather anemic efforts on rather trivial matters.

When truly significant issues have been debated in the Senate, Obama has consistently sided with partisan Democrats not willing to strive for compromise.

Quote:
On the difficult compromises that required the political courage to challenge one's own political constituency, Obama flinched: the "gang of 14" compromise on judicial appointments, the immigration compromise to which Obama tried to append union-backed killer amendments, and, just last month, the compromise on warrantless eavesdropping that garnered 68 votes in the Senate. But not Obama's.


Of course one might argue that he "had to" remain lined up with the left of his party if he was to obtain the nomination, but that he can be relied upon to do all the necessary uniting aisle crossing when he is president.

It's hard to imagine how one might argue such a thing with a straight face, but it might be argued.

"New Politics?"

The current hard core supporters of Obama are only too happy to learn that he has never compromised with the Republican scoundrels, for they are the ones he had to woo, but it makes one wonder exactly what the "unity" they all profess to desire actually looks like.

Compromise as long as it leads to their position? Unity as long as it is complies with their unified beliefs?

Would I like to see an end to partisan warfare? Yes, I would, but why should I believe Obama will provide it? When has he ever risked his political career in an attempt to get something important done irrespective of what the ideologues in his party might insist upon?

Do you really want someone in the White House who has the character to fight for what he believes is best for the nation despite what impact it may have on his career?

Do you really want someone in the White House who is capable of compromise with the Opposition for the sake of the nation?

Do you really want someone in the White House that is capable of breaking free of Old Political rules and charting a course for this country that benefits all?

You can have such a president, but he will not be young and attractive. He will not be able to electrify large audiences within 5 minutes of speaking. He will not look like Tomorrow Man. And he will not be able to put a jacket on without someone's help because the enemies of this country found it appropriate to break his shoulders on a regular basis.

He will just be the real deal.

If Obama wins the nomination, and I suspect he eventually will, the race to November will be between a character and a man.

Quote:
Who, in fact, supported all of these bipartisan deals, was a central player in two of them, and brokered the even more notorious McCain-Feingold campaign-finance reform? John McCain, of course.

Yes, John McCain ?- intemperate and rough-edged, of sharp elbows and even sharper tongue. Turns out that uniting is not a matter of rhetoric or manner, but of character and courage.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Sat 8 Mar, 2008 11:14 pm
nimh wrote:
A storm of grassroots enthusiasm in Wyoming today:

Quote:
Obama declared projected winner in Wyoming
Party strains to accommodate crowds; candidates seek boost for Mississippi

This article came with a picture, by the way:

http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photo_StoryLevel/080308/080308-wyoming-hmed-8a.widec.jpg

Richard Dunlap, Obama precinct captain, heading into the Democratic caucuses in Casper, Wyo.

Just another latte liberal, huh...
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Sat 8 Mar, 2008 11:29 pm
nimh wrote:
nimh wrote:
A storm of grassroots enthusiasm in Wyoming today:

Quote:
Obama declared projected winner in Wyoming
Party strains to accommodate crowds; candidates seek boost for Mississippi

This article came with a picture, by the way:

http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photo_StoryLevel/080308/080308-wyoming-hmed-8a.widec.jpg

Richard Dunlap, Obama precinct captain, heading into the Democratic caucuses in Casper, Wyo.

Just another latte liberal, huh...


And you know Mr Dunlap isn't fond of latte's?

I suppose you can be forgiven your assumption that no one in Wyoming drinks lattes, and that anyone with a cowboy hat upon his head cannot be a latte liberal.

In any case, I doubt anyone has made the argument that 100% of Obama's supporters are "latte liberals."

What constitutes a "latte liberal" in Wyoming may seem to be a "hard ass conservative" in Massachusetts.

Good grief, are you really trying to make a case for the general nature of Obama's supporters based on this one picture?
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Sun 9 Mar, 2008 08:16 am
The more conservatives bring up any and all negative stories of Obama whether true or not; the more I am convinced they would rather run against Clinton because they know they will beat her.

Personally I think most people have the wrong idea of what Obama means when he talks about change and being a uniter is not uniting true liberal and true conservatives ideals; which would be impossible . But more about uniting those more in the middle with left leaning democrats with the common goal of wanting to change how America has been going for the last (almost) eight years. This is how he put it; though I know it has been twisted out of all orignal meaning and I have no desire to go down that over beaten path.

Quote:
I don't want to present myself as some sort of singular figure. I think part of what's different are the times...I think Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not. He put us on a fundamentally different path because the country was ready for it. I think they felt like with all the excesses of the 1960s and 1970s and government had grown and grown but there wasn't much sense of accountability in terms of how it was operating. I think people, he just tapped into what people were already feeling, which was we want clarity we want optimism, we want a return to that sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship that had been missing.


Obama "I think Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America"

Now I know Obama's message is not the same as Reagan (I wouldn't vote for him it were) but at the time Reagan ran for office; people were tired of the Carter administration and Reagan appealed to those poeple who wanted a change from it. Obama appeals to people who want a change from this administration and most just see Hillary as a one of them only maybe a little lighter. McCain they have seen as going way to far to the right. (I don't articulate very well; but I think the main point can be gleaned from what I tried to say.)

An example of McCain going to far to the radical right.

McCain Courts Secret Radical Religious Conservative Group For Support In Presidential Bid
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Sun 9 Mar, 2008 08:28 am
McCain is indeed interesting, on some issues he is extreme right and on other issues he is extreme moderate. I don't think anyone has him pegged yet.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Sun 9 Mar, 2008 08:32 am
dyslexia wrote:
McCain is indeed interesting, on some issues he is extreme right and on other issues he is extreme moderate. I don't think anyone has him pegged yet.


Thats why I like him, he really cant be pigeonholed.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Sun 9 Mar, 2008 09:05 am
dyslexia wrote:
McCain is indeed interesting, on some issues he is extreme right and on other issues he is extreme moderate. I don't think anyone has him pegged yet.


Tell me in what way is he not extreme right now as opposed to 2000 when he had a whole nother set of standards and ideals. The only one I can see is his stand on immigration which don't even differ from Bush's and he has even changed a little on that in that he says border security has to come first and the rest will have to come later. (google it) He's changed on Taxes; torture and now he is a religious right and changed on his stance on a gay marriage ban. In 2004 he opposed the ban; now he is in favor it.

Straight Talkin' McCain Takes Both Sides of Gay Marriage Amendment Debate (click on the words in blue to verify facts at this admittedly liberal site.)

I think he can pigeonholed very well; vote panderer.
0 Replies
 
nappyheadedhohoho
 
  1  
Sun 9 Mar, 2008 10:02 am
nimh wrote:
A storm of grassroots enthusiasm in Wyoming today:


Out of nearly 60,000 registered Democrats, some 5,000 went for Obama and around 3,000 for Hillary. Meaning, around 85% of registered Democrats found something better to do on Saturday than caucus for their party.

Compared to past elections, that probably is a 'storm', though.
0 Replies
 
 

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