sozobe
 
  1  
Thu 6 Mar, 2008 03:22 pm
Actually after reading the source material it sounds like separate things went on -- a Canadian guy talked to Goolsbee and summarized it in a certain way that may or may not have been accurate; and the Canadian embassy got a call from Hillary's campaign saying, uh, take this NAFTA stuff with a grain of salt, 'K? And that there has been weird and possibly nefarious spin in the aftermath of those two events. This is especially weird (the bolded part):

Quote:
[Harper's chief of staff Ian] Brodie, apparently seeking to play down the potential impact on Canada, told the reporters the threat was not serious, and that someone from Ms. Clinton's campaign had even contacted Canadian diplomats to tell them not to worry because the NAFTA threats were mostly political posturing.

The Canadian Press cited an unnamed source last night as saying that several people overheard the remark.

The news agency quoted that source as saying that Mr. Brodie said that someone from Ms. Clinton's campaign called and was "telling the embassy to take it with a grain of salt."

The story was followed by CTV's Washington bureau chief, Tom Clark, who reported that the Obama campaign, not the Clinton's, had reassured Canadian diplomats.


My head still hurts.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 6 Mar, 2008 03:27 pm
With me it's my sides.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Thu 6 Mar, 2008 03:54 pm
Laughing give credit where its due
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 6 Mar, 2008 04:29 pm
I do indeed. It's a lot more interesting than our elections.

Do you know if they have anything like our Boundaries Commission?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Thu 6 Mar, 2008 04:45 pm
spendius wrote:
I do indeed. It's a lot more interesting than our elections.

Do you know if they have anything like our Boundaries Commission?
Our reach may be finite but it is unbounded.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Thu 6 Mar, 2008 04:59 pm
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Vert interesting take on the Obama mythos (from National Review)

Obama's Messianic Politics
Why his healer-redeemer rhetoric has a limited appeal.

<snip>

The difficulty with his I-am-the-Adonis-who-changes-winter-into-spring version of the redemption myth is that it , or so church-attendance rates suggest. In a blue state like Connecticut, income and church attendance are negatively correlated; in blue-land, it is the poorer folk who are more likely to be conventionally pious. They aren't looking for a messiah; they've already found one in church.

The rich, churchless, blue-state elites, by contrast, are hungry for the kind of secular nirvana Obama is serving up.


Heh. Funny, how this author goes on derisively about the vapid, new age-y psychological yearnings of the Obama electorate -- when his own piece is an uncommon length of psycho-babble, based on lots of soundbite speculation, and little to no actual data or evidence to substantiate it.

Come to think of it, his widely sweeping social sketch, all intuition and common wisdom and no actual data, is exactly the kind that you'd find in those trendy magazines, the kind that appeal to those flighty readers who yearn for overarching theories but shirk back from anything systematic. So he's mirroring the kind of vague, lazy mindset he ridicules.

But anyway. Let's go straight to the heart of the argument in these woolly paragraphs above. Obama appeals most to the kind of high-income, high-education blue-state liberals who have long lost their ties with the traditional Savior (Jesus Christ and the Church), and yet long for a savior-type figure. They've found that vibe that they miss in Obama, the ersatz messias for the blue-state liberal elites.

Right? It's a nice enough try: after all, Obama does do better among high-education/high-income voters -- and it is those groups who, in "blue state" America, are more likely to have lost most of their ties to the Church.

But here's flaw number one: Obama's base is not the "blue-state elites"; it is not "in a blue state like Connecticut". He barely eeked out a primary victory in that state, and a quick look at the map shows that blue states are not his forte. He won Washington state, his home states Illinois and Hawaii, and the blue mini states Vermont, Maryland and Delaware; but he lost in Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New York, California and New Jersey. Meanwhile, he's ratcheted up big wins throughout the Mountains and Plains states and in the Deep South - hardly yer typical "blue-state elites" stomping grounds.

But smart people will remark on something else, too. You cant base a reliable argument on just adding up correlations and assuming they neatly stack up. For example: secularity may be more prevalent among higher-educated Democrats than less-educated Democrats, but that doesn mean that when Obama appeals relatively strongly to higher-educated Dems, it's those secular higher-educated ones he must be appealing to. Basic fallacy, really. I'm hopeless with analogies, but lemme try: "I know you eat a lot of meat; a much-sold kind of meat is pork; ergo, you must love pork." It's possible, but hardly necessarily so.

The funny thing is that all the author would have needed to do to double-check the assumption he's based his whole article on is take a quick look at the exit poll data. Here's a good overview.

What turns out to be the case? Obama's message does NOT "resonate most strongly with [those] who are less likely [..] to have faith in the West's traditional healer-redeemer figure (Jesus)". It is NOT particularly the "churchless" who show themselves most "hungry for the kind of .. nirvana Obama is serving up".

In reality, Obama's support has been pretty evenly spread among those who go to church weekly, occasionally, or never - even if you leave out the states where African Americans made up a major share of the electorate. In some states he did a little better in one category; in other states he did a little better in another category.

Nothing like the kind of surge in Obama support the more secular the voter is that you'd have seen if the article had been remotely right.

Here's the numbers. Since both African-Americans and blacks are significantly more likely to be regular churchgoers than whites, I'm not including any states in which either (predominantly Obama-voting) African-Americans or (predominantly Hillary-voting) Hispanics constituted a major share of the electorate - which leaves these states.

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/1549/primaryvotebyreligiousakj4.th.png

The take-away? Another bloviating National Review writer elaborately constructs theories that pigeonhole the opponent's camp as the kind of caricature a conservative loves to hate - while being too lazy to do even the smallest fact-check of his assumptions. They write with a flourish, but their intellectual laziness equals that of any new age guru.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Thu 6 Mar, 2008 05:14 pm
Nicely put, Nimh.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 6 Mar, 2008 05:39 pm
nimh almost always "nice puts" his posts. Like I said, I love to read him.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Thu 6 Mar, 2008 05:41 pm
Holy crap, Nimh. Very nicely done.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Thu 6 Mar, 2008 05:55 pm
nimh wrote:
..........

Heh. Funny, how this author goes on derisively about the vapid, new age-y psychological yearnings of the Obama electorate -- when his own piece is an uncommon length of psycho-babble,
..........................


This literary masterpiece from a poster whose initials stand for N ational I nstitute of M ental H ealth is truly wonderful.

To "eke" out isn't related to "eeeek", btw.

Obama has to develop some backbone if he is to fight the creature from the swamp, aka Mrs Clinton; all Republicans hope he'll fail at this effort Smile
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Thu 6 Mar, 2008 05:58 pm
nimh wrote:
.........................


Here's the numbers. Since both African-Americans and blacks are significantly more likely to be regular churchgoers than whites, ..............


Out here "blacks" and "African-Americans" are used interchangeably. Besides, what's the source of the "church going" allegation for this group in particular?!
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 6 Mar, 2008 06:08 pm
George wrote-

Quote:
Nicely put, Nimh.


If it's good enough for George it'll do for me.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Thu 6 Mar, 2008 06:21 pm
High Seas wrote:
nimh wrote:
..........

Heh. Funny, how this author goes on derisively about the vapid, new age-y psychological yearnings of the Obama electorate -- when his own piece is an uncommon length of psycho-babble,
..........................


This literary masterpiece from a poster whose initials stand for N ational I nstitute of M ental H ealth is truly wonderful.

To "eke" out isn't related to "eeeek", btw.

Obama has to develop some backbone if he is to fight the creature from the swamp, aka Mrs Clinton; all Republicans hope he'll fail at this effort Smile


He's working on it. I think you will see some very pointed questions this week from Obama.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Thu 6 Mar, 2008 06:24 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Nicely put, Nimh.


George - is this altogether fair?! Both Ohio and Texas have crossover primaries and in both States a tenth of Hillary's ballots were cast by registered Republicans - though this wasn't widely reported, if this thread is anything to go by Smile
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Thu 6 Mar, 2008 06:40 pm
nimh wrote:
The take-away? Another bloviating National Review writer elaborately constructs theories that pigeonhole the opponent's camp as the kind of caricature a conservative loves to hate - while being too lazy to do even the smallest fact-check of his assumptions. They write with a flourish, but their intellectual laziness equals that of any new age guru.

You needed to analyze the article to come to that conclusion? I could have told you that just by looking at the source.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Thu 6 Mar, 2008 06:49 pm
High Seas wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
Nicely put, Nimh.


George - is this altogether fair?! Both Ohio and Texas have crossover primaries and in both States a tenth of Hillary's ballots were cast by registered Republicans - though this wasn't widely reported, if this thread is anything to go by Smile


Registered republicans went for Obama to a greater degree.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Thu 6 Mar, 2008 06:52 pm
maporsche wrote:
Registered republicans went for Obama to a greater degree.

really?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 6 Mar, 2008 06:53 pm
It's not surprising at all that republicans voted for the democratic candidates; many are sick and tired of what they experienced the past eight years and their primary GOP candidate who really doesn't represent conservatives.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Thu 6 Mar, 2008 06:54 pm
High Seas wrote:
nimh wrote:
Here's the numbers. Since both African-Americans and blacks are significantly more likely to be regular churchgoers than whites, ..............

Out here "blacks" and "African-Americans" are used interchangeably.

Ouch. My bad. That should have read "African-Americans and Hispanics," of course.

High Seas wrote:
To "eke" out isn't related to "eeeek", btw.

Thanks! I'll keep an eye out on that one from now on.


joefromchicago wrote:
You needed to analyze the article to come to that conclusion?

No, not really. I analyzed the article because a) I felt like refuting its basic assumption, and b) it provided a good excuse to highlight an interesting set of data. The conclusion that the author, like many of his peers at the NR, wrote like an intellectually dishonest lazybum was more like a free bonus point.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 6 Mar, 2008 07:07 pm
If republicans can vote in Democratic primaries why don't they vote for Mike Tyson.

He should be easy to beat.
0 Replies
 
 

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