Francis
 
  1  
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 07:45 am
I'm sure Americans are ready for a black president.

I would be pleased if Obama can get through..
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 09:03 am
sozobe wrote:
McTag wrote:
Nothing specific. I just think there are still interests in the US, with tendency to violence, who would not stand for having a black president.
But you're closer to it than I am, and that's why I ask.


There are many reasons I want Obama to win, but, obliquely, this is one of the main ones. That so many non-Americans can't believe that Americans would actually stand for having a black president.

I think it would be an incredibly powerful message if that's exactly what we do. ("What? Americans voted a black president into office? I'm shocked! Better re-evaluate my opinion of America and Americans...")

As for the question itself -- will he be assassinated? -- we've talked about that here before. I think there will always be kooks, period, but that there are security measures in place and that I don't think that Obama is necessarily in MORE danger than any other president. Certainly not a reason not to vote for him anyway. (And I think that was part of Butrfynet's reaction -- we've seen stuff in America about people not wanting to vote for Obama to "save" him.)


Not to nitpick, but McTag is not saying he thinks Americans wouldn't put a black into office as president; but that once there, there are elements in the US who will never accept that. I agree with this.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 09:29 am
Yeah, that's why I said "obliquely." I do agree that there are people who wouldn't like it 'tall.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 09:45 am
McTag wrote:
"States with large minority populations". You Americans are so delicate!

I'm not trying to be offensive either. Maybe it's just that we older Brits have a baleful view of some of America, reinforced by the appearances of Mr Bush on our screens, and the antics of him and and his coterie.
Hell, some of them even shoot their friends!


The peace in Northern Ireland is recent enough for some here to recall the internments and other outrages of the British government while it was still in the thrall of its grotesque puppet in Stormont. Baleful views of "some of .." abound.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 09:48 am
By way of thanks -
Nimh, I liked that article you showed by Paul Campos and have bookmarked his column (forgot the newspaper name already, but it's in my Toolbar Blogs to watch section, heh, even though it's not a blog but a column. My organization... is not tip top.) I am a late-to-be-absolutely sure I chose Obama person, being mixed re Edwards, and previously really for Kuchinich, so he reflects me in that; plus I liked his observational/conversational writing style.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 10:08 am
snood wrote:
Not to nitpick, but McTag is not saying he thinks Americans wouldn't put a black into office as president; but that once there, there are elements in the US who will never accept that. I agree with this.


I believe the daily experiences of the great majority of people here have long since shown them that, "blacks", like "whites", are a very varied group and that the stereotypes - whatever one may think of them - aren't a useful predictor of anything. Moreover the exit polling data I have seen strongly suggests that skin color or "race" (whatever that really means) is no more a reliable predictor of voting patterns than age, political affiliation, economic status or any of the other variables that the statisticians so love.

However, there are lunatics everywhere and in every segment of the population. Obama is a very charismatic individual, and, like the Kennedys and Martin Luther King, he has the potential to attract the attention, and potentially fixation, of some strange people. If there is a risk here, I believe that is its origin, not simply a racial matter.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 10:18 am
georgeob1 wrote:
snood wrote:
Not to nitpick, but McTag is not saying he thinks Americans wouldn't put a black into office as president; but that once there, there are elements in the US who will never accept that. I agree with this.


I believe the daily experiences of the great majority of people here have long since shown them that, "blacks", like "whites", are a very varied group and that the stereotypes - whatever one may think of them - aren't a useful predictor of anything. Moreover the exit polling data I have seen strongly suggests that skin color or "race" (whatever that really means) is no more a reliable predictor of voting patterns than age, political affiliation, economic status or any of the other variables that the statisticians so love.

However, there are lunatics everywhere and in every segment of the population. Obama is a very charismatic individual, and, like the Kennedys and Martin Luther King, he has the potential to attract the attention, and potentially fixation, of some strange people. If there is a risk here, I believe that is its origin, not simply a racial matter.


Quick comment because the topic is too depressing. The consequences of this imagined event would be deep and extended. I fully expect that the Secret Service, aided by their forensic psychologists, are much more acutely aware of the present risk than are we.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 10:21 am
Obama represents a force that "Gods Own PArty "(GOP) does not want to deal with. Hillary comes with so much baggage , not the least of which is the possibility of yet another back to back dynastic presidency and its grand failure. GOP would hate to whip up its hate machine in a fight against Obama.
His machine has shown to be extremely savvy by skipping several states and is hoping to generate a"snowball" of support in the upcoming remaining primaries.
The "Chesapeake Tuesday" is this week and DC, Md, Va all can just about make his train unstoppable.

The Evangelicals (largely split up by the failures of Bush) are showing that they are not a Monolithic block. MAny are looking to back Obama.

If Obama would win the nomination, the GOP would **** its collective pants.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 10:25 am
sozobe wrote:
As for the question itself -- will he be assassinated? -- we've talked about that here before. I think there will always be kooks, period, but that there are security measures in place and that I don't think that Obama is necessarily in MORE danger than any other president. Certainly not a reason not to vote for him anyway.

I totally agree that it's not a reason to refrain from voting for him; if anything, electing him would be a way to defeat the demons of the past. But do you honestly think Obama is not in more danger of assassination "than any other president"?
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 10:30 am
Butrflynet wrote:
JPB wrote:
diversion -- there are currently 14 teenagers in the next room (15 -16 year olds). The noise level is deafening. The topic? Obama and Hillary. Never in my lifetime...


That's great to hear! Can you eavesdrop and gives a report on their talking (yelling) points?

What was the occasion of the gathering? Was it social and turned into a political discussion?


followup... it was a social occasion. I picked a few of the kids up earlier in the afternoon and heard a sprinkling of political talk in the car. Others showed up in small groups and by 7:30 the gang was here. Eating pizza, playing video games, listening to music, banging on the congas (loudly!), and shouting about who should get the Dem nomination. There were Hillary supporters and Obama supporters and a single McCain fan. General consensus was the two of them should pair up on the ticket. I don't think that's such a hot idea but I stayed out of it.

The animation and interest in this election by a group of HS sophomores was incredible.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 10:32 am
Quote:
If Obama would win the nomination, the GOP would **** its collective pants.


LOL. The ****-friendliness of the rural community. It was the one expletive in my mennonite community that you might hear in any house from anyone.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 10:46 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Moreover the exit polling data I have seen strongly suggests that skin color or "race" (whatever that really means) is no more a reliable predictor of voting patterns than age, political affiliation, economic status or any of the other variables that the statisticians so love.

I think you want to doublecheck that exit polling data... :wink:

Both in the last couple of general elections, and in the Democratic primaries now, for example, black voters have rallied behind one of the candidates in a stronger concentration than any other political, siocio-economic or demographic subset.

Look at the way black and white voters have voted in these primaries, for example. So far, in the Democratic primaries, Obama has received an average of 79% of the black vote -- and 37% of the white vote.* Thats a 42% gap.

In comparison, the gap in the Obama vote between college graduates and voters without a college degree was 12%, and the gap between those whose family income is less or more than $50,000 was 5%.

In 2004, meanwhile, 88% of African-Americans voted for Kerry, while just 41% of whites did. Thats a 47-point race gap.

To put that in perspective: even the gap between the poorest 8% of the voters (those earning less than $15,000) and the richest 3% (those earning $200,000 or more) was significantly smaller, with Kerry getting 28 percent more among the former than the latter.

When it comes to education, the biggest gap was between those with some college, of whom 46% votes Kerry, and postgraduates, of whom 55% voted Kerry. Thats just a 9-point gap. Same with age: Kerry got 54% of the youngest voters and 46% of the oldest ones - an 8-point gap. Pales into insignificance compared to the 47-point racial gap.

The overbearing role of race in politics is sad in many ways. But it's undeniable.


* Average of each state's polling data, not weighted for population size.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 10:48 am
ossobuco wrote:
By way of thanks -
Nimh, I liked that article you showed by Paul Campos and have bookmarked his column [..]. I am a late-to-be-absolutely sure I chose Obama person, being mixed re Edwards, and previously really for Kuchinich, so he reflects me in that; plus I liked his observational/conversational writing style.

My pleasure Smile It was funny..
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 10:49 am
I just watched Rove on Face the Nation. The man is as smooth as a high quality anal lubricant.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 11:24 am
One idea I've read seems plausible. Obama will be much harder to defeat because of his skin color. Sexism is more acceptable to more Americans than racism. Commentators will be much more hesitant to say negative things about an African American than a woman.

georgeob,

I have another question. Have there been any reforms in Congress since Charlie Wilson's time that would limit the amount of power one congressman can accumulate by an obtaining multiple key committee posts? Or any other reform? I'm curious.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 11:51 am
Lola wrote:
One idea I've read seems plausible. Obama will be much harder to defeat because of his skin color. Sexism is more acceptable to more Americans than racism. Commentators will be much more hesitant to say negative things about an African American than a woman.


Cheap shot, really cheap!
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 11:53 am
Nimh,

Your own data demonstrates the significance of age, economic & educational status, and political affiliation as indicators of voting patterns - along with race. That was my point.

For example that blacks voted more for John Kerry in 2004 had much more to do with the fact that they are predominantly Democrats than anything else. Is the correlation with race or with political affiliation? I don't think the statistics give us an answer.

The variability of "white" voting patters also reveals the relative significance of other variables, in correlations with their choices.

Lola wrote:
georgeob,

I have another question. Have there been any reforms in Congress since Charlie Wilson's time that would limit the amount of power one congressman can accumulate by an obtaining multiple key committee posts? Or any other reform? I'm curious.
I think the short answer is no.

Congress has reformed itself several times to limit the venality and corruption attendant to entrenched committee chairmanships and powers. The seniority system was established early in the last century by reformers as a way to limit sectarian power blocs. Later as Southern Democrats learned to exploit and co-opt this system, and themselves came to control nearly all the Committees, the seniority system was abolished by yet another generation of "reformers". I think the lesson here is that the crooks are smarter and better motivated than are the rule-makers who seek to abolish them.

The trend over recent decades in Congress is toward a proliferation of overlapping Committees and Sub Committees to give ever more Congressmen a dung hill, however small, to crow on. Each one becomes a vehicle for potential corruption, distraction to the working organs of the executive branch, and pork barrel favoritism. A little noticed feature of the Katrina disaster was the fact that a major portion of the Corps of Engineers funding to study and improve the flood resistance of the new Orleans dyke & levee system was diverted by an earmark by a prominent Democrat Senator from Louisiana for the construction of a canal (that materially worsened the flooding problem) named after himself.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 11:53 am
CalamityJane wrote:
Lola wrote:
One idea I've read seems plausible. Obama will be much harder to defeat because of his skin color. Sexism is more acceptable to more Americans than racism. Commentators will be much more hesitant to say negative things about an African American than a woman.


Cheap shot, really cheap!


What?????? I thought this was an argument for electaibility. Unbelievable.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 11:56 am
Hahaha Laughing I do understand though, Lola. I probably would do the same,
if the tables were turned.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 11:57 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Nimh,



Lola wrote:
georgeob,

I have another question. Have there been any reforms in Congress since Charlie Wilson's time that would limit the amount of power one congressman can accumulate by an obtaining multiple key committee posts? Or any other reform? I'm curious.
I think the short answer is no.

Congress has reformed itself several times to limit the venality and corruption attendant to entrenched committee chairmanships and powers. The seniority system was established early in the last century by reformers as a way to limit sectarian power blocs. Later as Southern Democrats learned to exploit and co-opt this system, and themselves came to control nearly all the Committees, the seniority system was abolished by yet another generation of "reformers". I think the lesson here is that the crooks are smarter and better motivated than are the rule-makers who seek to abolish them.

The trend over recent decades in Congress is toward a proliferation of overlapping Committees and Sub Committees to give ever more Congressmen a dung hill, however small, to crow on. Each one becomes a vehicle for potential corruption, distraction to the working organs of the executive branch, and pork barrel favoritism. A little noticed feature of the Katrina disaster was the fact that a major portion of the Corps of Engineers funding to study and improve the flood resistance of the new Orleans dyke & levee system was diverted by an earmark by a prominent Democrat Senator from Louisiana for the construction of a canal (that materially worsened the flooding problem) named after himself.


I agree with your conclusion. Human nature dictates that those who are willing to bully and cheat have an advantage and that reform has to be a consistent and constant endeavor.
0 Replies
 
 

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