Obama '08?

Sozobe wrote:

OK so to take it a little more general -- do you (anyone) think that if Obama talks explicitly about his race + race in America, that will hurt him in the campaign?

Oh, I think that it is necessary to discuss his race, and race in America.....but not beat it to death. As an aside, I have been reading a lot about him, and I do see a lot of positives........I just need to see him "in action" more.

blatham wrote:

It really is a matter of what must occur or come to pass between the two points of deep racism and none. It won't be an on/off switch.

blatham- I said that I was a Pollyanna, and I understand what you are saying. I think that I am just becoming impatient. I would love a world where people would be judged as individuals, and not lumped into one group or another.

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Quote:

blatham wrote:
It really is a matter of what must occur or come to pass between the two points of deep racism and none. It won't be an on/off switch.

blatham- I said that I was a Pollyanna, and I understand what you are saying. I think that I am just becoming impatient. I would love a world where people would be judged as individuals, and not lumped into one group or another.

Hey, me too. I am soooo tired of having my nuanced identity submerged under the label of "surprisingly vital sexual creature"

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Oh, I think that it is necessary to discuss his race, and race in America.....but not beat it to death. As an aside, I have been reading a lot about him, and I do see a lot of positives........I just need to see him "in action" more.

Sounds good. (I'd be curious about what "beat to death" means, but we can save that until you've seen more of him.)

Again, glad to get your take, as I think you're someone who's genuinely in the middle group, who could go either way (Democrat/ Republican or for that matter Independent or Other).

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blatham wrote:

Hey, me too. I am soooo tired of having my nuanced identity submerged under the label of "surprisingly vital sexual creature"

Hey, that group is ok. It is based on your own personal persona, and vast accomplishments!

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sozobe wrote:

OK so to take it a little more general -- do you (anyone) think that if Obama talks explicitly about his race + race in America, that will hurt him in the campaign?

I guess it depends on what he says about race. To pull examples off the top of my head: "We need more racial quotas to overcome the heritage of slavery" -- problem. "We need to reform FEMA so poor black kids in New Orleans can escape the next flood without their lives destroyed" -- no problem. Similarly about his own race. If he couples it with a "we're in this together" message, it can actually be an advantage.

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Maybe someone (maybe even me, if I'm lucky enough to get to do a doctoral dissertation, and its something I feel like I can elucidate) will do a study one day on a phenomenon that I think may be peculiar to people who self identify as black in America.
We take credit for the good that the best of us do- to a degree, just like Phoenix is referring to. But we also take the blame for the bad that the worst of us do in a way that I don't really see others doing. Let me give you an example I hope will communicate some of this.
Picture this - I am riding a city bus (haven't had to for a long while, and I'm grateful); the bus stops and picks up a black man who is obviously intoxicated. He is smelly and dirty. He is loud and obnoxious. What I, and other blacks on the bus feel is shame akin to if the man was someone I was known to be an acquaintance with, or even someone known to be a relative of mine. I and the other blacks on that bus immediately start to feel as if we are being identified with that drunk, dirty, loud man. I know that's how a lot of us feel because I've talked about this with others several times.
I don't know that any other group experiences that instant identification with an undesirable element, the way I've described. I don't know that white people think anything but "Oh no - a smelly drunk",if a white person in the same state of disrepair got on that bus.
It happens when we see a black man getting arrested - I experienced it when the DC sniper got caught - "Damn! why'd he have to be black?"

I don't have an answer - just think its an interesting thing...

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Noted.

I guess what I'm asking is more about him talking about his OWN blackness. Any candidate can have opinions about those two things (Edwards, for example). I'm talking about Obama saying things like I quoted recently, stuff about his own experience, about being proud of being black, things like that.

It can be things like you mentioned in that context -- "When I was a kid, there was a tornado and [some sort of discrimination, leading in to FEMA stuff]" -- but what I'm curious about is the context.

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Oh, you edited, Thomas.

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Well, at least there aren't a lot of voices crying "Why does he even have to mention his race?"

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Snood, I think that what you describe is common with minority groups. I can't tell you how angry I got the first time I saw a Deaf guy trying to sell those fingerspelling cards at the airport. Had a huge argument with him.

And it was so amazing to see Marlee Matlin up there getting her Oscar -- and then right away so disappointing to see her TALK then rather than signing.

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Snood- Interesting. Years ago, I used to work with, and was friendly with, a couple of black women. The three of us went out together. As we stopped for a red light, there was a black man on the corner, obviously drunk, and staggering around. One of my friends turns to the other and says, "Hey__________, isn't that your daddy?" They both laughed hysterically at the remark.

I remember at the time, that I thought the woman's remark to be very peculiar. I could not imagine me, or any of my white friends, even remotely saying anything like that about their father.

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snood

It's an interesting question. My first intuition is to guess this might not be unique to the group in question but rather that as a member of the group you are particularly sensitive to the behavior of other group members.

Another such case I can think of just immediately is that of Americans travelling abroad who find either some degree of shame or pride in how other Americans are behaving.

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sozobe wrote:

I guess what I'm asking is more about him talking about his OWN blackness.

If I remember correctly, Obama did weave in some remarks about his race at his 2004 keynote speech. It was in the spirit of "I'm living the American dream here -- a poor black kid from a modest Chicago neighborhood, and now I'm running for Senator! I want others to have that chance too." (This is from memory, and my memory has been known to suck.) I think Obama is very good at bringing up such topics in a direct but non-threatening way. I'm not worried about that part.

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Thomas- I think that if Obama keeps his remarks on the level that you mention, there will be no problem. He is really walking a tightrope. He needs to appeal to black people, but not turn off white people. From what I have already read and observed, I think that he is more than bright enough to pull that off.

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Thomas wrote:

sozobe wrote:
I guess what I'm asking is more about him talking about his OWN blackness.

If I remember correctly, Obama did weave in some remarks about his race at his 2004 keynote speech. It was in the spirit of "I'm living the American dream here -- a poor black kid from a modest Chicago neighborhood, and now I'm running for Senator! I want others to have that chance too." (This is from memory, and my memory has been known to suck.) I think Obama is very good at bringing up such topics in a direct but non-threatening way. I'm not worried about that part.

thomas
Perhaps I don't understand your specific worry here.

It seems to me the fellow has made remarkably few mis-steps which I attribute to his own smarts, effective advisors, and personal integrity.

What I think he will have to handle is the fairly predictable strategies to undercut his positives.

We've seen some of it here and elsewhere earlier. If he says that his model is Lincoln or that he wishes to carry forward Lincoln's traditions, the attack mode will take the form of "And who says that Obama is Lincolnian...well, it is Obama himself." The suggestions are that he is actually hollow and self-aggrandizing. If he mentions the race matter, then he is "playing the race card", etc.

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thomas wrote:

I'm not worried about that part. (Emphasis added)

blatham wrote:

thomas
Perhaps I don't understand your specific worry here.

What specific worry? I agree with you about his dearth of missteps.

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What then, if anything, worries you?

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I think he was responding to my question about whether talking about race would hurt Obama. His response was basically "no", or "I'm not worried."

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blatham wrote:

What then, if anything, worries you?

Nothing really.

If I was a Democrat, I would be unconditionally thrilled about Obama. Since I am an independent libertarian, I feel ambivalent about Obama's platform, which basically consists of standard issue Democratic talking points. But I'm happy about Obama personally, and certainly like him much better than any probable Repubican candidate. He'd be a good president.

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It will hurt him if he talks about it too much, or if he frames it the "wrong" way.

It surprises me--people acknowledge that it will be uphill just based on his skin color--then seem to shy away from the fact that "too much" identification with his race would emphasize the "concern" of possible white (or non-black) Obama voters.

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