sozobe
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 09:58 am
<nodding>
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 09:58 am
the spirit of holier than thou spin that is so 1000% reminiscent of the bush administration and Carl Rove is staggering..... absolutely staggering...but because the emperor is wearing a different style of suit his followers choose not to see the cut of the cloth is basically the same.

that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 09:59 am
(Great Obama speech going on in New Orleans on CNN right now!)
0 Replies
 
Gargamel
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 10:01 am
You're comparing Obama to Bush and Carl Rove? I realize I've jumped on this thread late, but I had every intention of taking you seriously.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 10:01 am
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
the spirit of holier than thou spin that is so 1000% reminiscent of the bush administration and Carl Rove is staggering..... absolutely staggering...but because the emperor is wearing a different style of suit his followers choose not to see the cut of the cloth is basically the same.

that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.


It isn't 'holier then thou.' I'm not holier then anyone and neither is Obama. It isn't that he can do no wrong, trust me, every time he says 'middle class tax cut' I want to scream at him!!!

I never see any Hillary supporters criticizing her in any way, btw. It's a little odd that one candidate's supporters are accused of behavior that the others perform to an even greater degree; projection.

In another thread, MaPorshce asked me three things I didn't like about Obama, and I answered; can any Clinton supporter tell me three things that they don't like about her?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 10:02 am
Gargamel wrote:
You're comparing Obama to Bush and Carl Rove? I realize I've jumped on this thread late, but I had every intention of taking you seriously.


Drama queen gone wild!
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 10:12 am
Lola has given as much as she's gotten. By her own admission; she personifies the female baby boomer Cyclo has been talking about for weeks and has the audacity to suggest the black candidate should wait in line behind the female... as if the person Barack Obama doesn't have every right to campaign for the office regardless of his age, sex or color. Absurdly self centered logic if you ask me.

Hillary was indeed the presumptive choice… but many (if not most) of us presumed a Democratic loss if the Party was somehow stupid enough to be convinced to back her... easily the single dumbest idea since nominating John Kerry… who was quite probably in the minority group of people who couldn't defeat George Bush.

I find the whole "we have money now and it's our turn" meme to be terribly offensive coming from the generation that, more than any other has spent their children and grand children's money to accumulate their personal fortunes in the first place. But NO Baby Boomer wants to talk about that. (What's Ross Perot doing these days anyway?)
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 10:13 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
All over the nets there is a lot of anger on the part of Hillary supporters. I can honestly say that I've never seen so much whining about how 'unfair' everyone is to one candidate.
Cycloptichorn


But it is matched by the hyper indignation of Obama supporters (yourself included) whenever any criticism - even slight - is offered against their sainted hero.

Here's my assessment of the situation given in a post a few pages back that was lost in all the spam.

I think the best argument for Hillary is that she has been compromised by her own errors of judgement (think of her 1993 health care fiasco) and the various deceptions and financial dealings of the Clinton Administrations. Moreover she has clearly learned to compromise in the other (far better) sense of the word, and shown herself able to deal with the give and take of politics & governance. She is a worldly political animal whose ambitions are there to be seen and whose many faults are by now mostly visible to us all. One would wish for better and more, however in this case I think we have a good fix on the down side. Moreover she has to a greater degree been tested in adversity - not at all perfect, but we know what we will get.

Obama presents the opposite set of hopes and risks. he is clearly a gifted thinker and speaker. The concepts, complexities and inevitable tensions involved in synthesizing a broad strategy for any major issue come easily to him, and he has the rare ability to convey an impression of these tensions & contradictions while at the same time emphasizing simple, clear approaches to proposed solutions. (Some are perhaps too simple and too general, leaving room for one to wonder if he knows what he doesn't know). All this is very good, but experience in life teaches us that those so gifted often don't have the necessity of developing the habit of rigorous, self critical analysis so necessary to avoid error and self delusion. Often their shortcomings are only discovered when they get in over their heads, conveyed on by a sense (and aura) of omniscience, until things really turn to sheit and take them by surprise.

There is another, related factor as well. I am reminded of the wonderful speech of Nicias recorded in Thucydidies' Peloponesian War. Alcibiades, another inspiring, charismatic young man, had proposed to the city fathers of Athens, in the seventh year of the war with Sparta that finally destroyed the city, that they invade Sicily and that he, Alcibiades would lead the expedition. He generated enough enthusiasm and confidence in his invincibility that the assembly was carried away. Nicias, another city leader, followed Alcibiades to the platform and gave a memorable speech, congratulating Alcibiades on his plan and noting the benefits accruing to him for leading the expedition, but adding words of caution. To paraphrase, he asked rhetorically what if the expedition fails to utterly confound Sparta as promised? Who will defend Athens if our fleet and army are far away and the Spartans don't take the bait? Finally he asked if it was wise of the city fathers to put the safety and fate of the city "in the hands of a young man in a hurry". Unfortunately Nicias' message went unheeded and disaster ensued.

Happily there is an alternative - vote Republican.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 10:15 am
Brand X wrote:
Gargamel wrote:
You're comparing Obama to Bush and Carl Rove? I realize I've jumped on this thread late, but I had every intention of taking you seriously.


Drama queen gone wild!
Isn't that a hoot? As if the Obama camp has played half the dirty pool the Clintons have.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 10:20 am
Lola wrote:
And here we are, at the height of our lives finally at a point where we're in a position to accomplish some of our greatest goals. If you think we're going to sit down and let that opportunity be taken from us by our own children before their time, you are mistaken.

Well, well. If you havent, unintentionally, unveiled the core emotion and logic, right here, that runs behind Hillary's anger about this young black man daring to challenge her, when it's finally her turn to get what is rightfully hers. I say you've neatly revealed the whole resentful core of this visceral motivation driving the Hillary camp, both candidate and many supporters.

And it sure dont look pretty Shocked
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 10:26 am
Lola wrote:
I'm still working on it. Stand by.

Good job on the overview of Hillary's legislative achievements though. Seriously. That needed to be done. The "what has she/he ever done?" argument gets a bit old if nobody's willing to look up the nitty-gritty of it. It's good to see this list for Hillary.

If she does win, I'm sure we'll all be looking these posts back up whenever the Republicans say, "what has she ever done.."
0 Replies
 
Gala
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 10:28 am
I can tell you 3 things about Obama I don't like:

a) The worship s***
b) His boasting never supporting the war when he was fortunate enough to not be in the senate at the time of the vote
c) Enough with the endorements, they're not really working except for Oprah's and that one is downright embarrassing

3 things about Hllary Clinton I don't like:

a) Her husband has become a turd in my eyes. (I liked him before he began campaigning for her).
b) Her being "next in line" to inherit the throne
c) She's a bore
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 10:29 am
Gala wrote:
I can tell you 3 things about Obama I don't like:

a) The worship s***
b) His boasting never supporting the war when he was fortunate enough to not be in the senate at the time of the vote
c) Enough with the endorements, they're not really working except for Oprah's and that one is downright embarrassing

3 things about Hllary Clinton I don't like:

a) Her husband has become a turd in my eyes. (I liked him before he began campaigning for her).
b) Her being "next in line" to inherit the throne
c) She's a bore


Thank you Gala, good points all around.

Do you think it's fair to say that Hillary Clinton has her own flavor of 'worship' going on?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 10:33 am
nimh wrote:
Lola wrote:
And here we are, at the height of our lives finally at a point where we're in a position to accomplish some of our greatest goals. If you think we're going to sit down and let that opportunity be taken from us by our own children before their time, you are mistaken.

Well, well. If you havent, unintentionally, unveiled the core emotion and logic, right here, that runs behind Hillary's anger about this young black man daring to challenge her, when it's finally her turn to get what is rightfully hers. I say you've neatly revealed the whole resentful core of this visceral motivation driving the Hillary camp, both candidate and many supporters.

And it sure dont look pretty Shocked


That's what I've been talking about for a while now!!!

I spend a lot of time directly engaging with Hillary supporters online, and I can tell ya that the last week or so has seen a really nasty turn amongst many of them.

Btw, nimh, from Rassmussen:

Quote:
The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Thursday shows a tie in the race for the Democratic Presidential Nomination. Senators Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are each supported by 44% of Likely Democratic Primary Voters (see recent daily numbers).


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 10:42 am
Re: Is Media Missing 'Bias' Issue in Obama-Clinton Contest?
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
Is Media Missing 'Bias' Issue in Obama-Clinton Contest?
By Greg Mitchell - E & P
February 06, 2008

Exit polls indicated that he got about 43% of the white vote around the U.S. -- but does this even come close to lining up to the likely votes cast? If someone could crunch those numbers it would be interesting to know if there is any way Obama could have performed so middling in nearly all of the non-caucus states, unless white voters were not being straight with pollsters. That 43% figure just doesn't seem to fit.

I put this forth not with tremendous confidence but just as a way of sparking some discussion and investigation

The exit polls are adjusted through election night to take the actual results into account, and once the full results are in, they are re-weighted again so that the topline numbers conform to the actual vote.

So if you look at the exit polls the day after the elections, their numbers will add up to the actual results.

I dont know when the author got the 43%, during the night or afterwards. Exit polls are by state, so to get a figure for "around the US" would involve a lot of calculating, and you'd miss some too as no exit polls were held in most of the caucus states. But I did post an overview of the white vote for Obama and Hillary by state in the Polls thread. I'd say 43% seems a bit high - the median is at 37%, but that's not accounting for the size of states.

Otherwise a very interesting article by the way.
0 Replies
 
Gala
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 10:45 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Do you think it's fair to say that Hillary Clinton has her own flavor of 'worship' going on?

Cycloptichorn


Yes, she has her large group of followers and worshipers too. The difference with her's and the other contenders is the worship on them is 'standard'-- Obama's has reached a fevered pitch.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 10:59 am
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
We don't know that Obama will be another Jimmy Carter, hopelessly over his head, but that is a legitimate risk in voting for him. His supporters can only rely on their own faith in the belief that someone who they find to be so talented and principled just has to be able to do the job well.

Hillary for all her faults has a very intimate knowledge of what the job entails and requires. She has contemplated every issue facing the nation and many that don't actually exist. I'm not sure that she is always been honest in telling us how she intends to handle these issues, but I am sure that she has plans for everyone of them. She has seen how the true world can, with contempt, slap aside idealistic fancies based on hope and wishes rather than reality and cruel truths.


georgeob1 wrote:
I think the best argument for Hillary is that she has been compromised by her own errors of judgement (think of her 1993 health care fiasco) and the various deceptions and financial dealings of the Clinton Administrations. Moreover she has clearly learned to compromise in the other (far better) sense of the word, and shown herself able to deal with the give and take of politics & governance. She is a worldly political animal whose ambitions are there to be seen and whose many faults are by now mostly visible to us all. One would wish for better and more, however in this case I think we have a good fix on the down side. Moreover she has to a greater degree been tested in adversity - not at all perfect, but we know what we will get.

Obama presents the opposite set of hopes and risks. he is clearly a gifted thinker and speaker. The concepts, complexities and inevitable tensions involved in synthesizing a broad strategy for any major issue come easily to him, and he has the rare ability to convey an impression of these tensions & contradictions while at the same time emphasizing simple, clear approaches to proposed solutions. (Some are perhaps too simple and too general, leaving room for one to wonder if he knows what he doesn't know). All this is very good, but experience in life teaches us that those so gifted often don't have the necessity of developing the habit of rigorous, self critical analysis so necessary to avoid error and self delusion. Often their shortcomings are only discovered when they get in over their heads, conveyed on by a sense (and aura) of omniscience, until things really turn to sheit and take them by surprise.


Now those are articulate and persuasive cases for Hillary.

Much better than Lola's argument for Hillary a few posts earlier (or later), which was basically, "What did Obama think, [he] could [just] enter the race in which Hillary was already positioned to become the long awaited first female president [..]?" It's Obama's fault that the party is now facing "a racial and generational divide", because he should have just stayed out of it! Obama is hypocritical when he "says he doesn't want it to be about race or gender," because if that were true, why, he should have just accepted Hillary as the rightful heir from the start.

Meh.

How odd that the actually persuasive arguments, the most articulate arguments, for Hillary as candidate come from two of our resident conservatives! I do appreciate their input, Finn and George have been interjecting some solid input in these Democratic threads lately. Perhaps we should give their take more consideration - after all, God knows that we are right about their race! Razz
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 11:54 am
One of the consequences of Obama's tremendous motivational skills; is some people have become highly motivated. No big shock there. While there are surely some who may have earned the abusive talk about worshipping idols; I've yet to see any such reaction on A2K. Indeed; it is the Hillary supporters who are instinctually distrustful and have taken Hillary completely on faith about her war plans… since there is no evidence to support her latest evolution being legitimate.

Obama downsides: Personally; I find him weak on Defense, weak on Health Care, a bit too Hawkish on Immigration, plan-less on deficit spending (let alone paying off the nearly 10 trillion our parents have racked up for our children). His platform doesn't address the faulty Income Tax structure of our government, the inexplicable dependence on the Federal Reserve, or show any signs of addressing the Climate Change in earnest (Nuclear solution Vs. a bunch of nifty sounding talk are the real options).

For her part; Hillary's platform is stronger on Defense, probably stronger on Health Care (though I suspect if she succeeded it would actually retard the progress towards Single Payer), is equally Hawkish on Immigration, and is no less clueless on tax matters and climate change. Frankly; she has a slightly better platform from my perspective.

The problem is I don't believe her. I've spent my life looking people in the eye, listening to their words and judging their sincerity. Where Bill has proven himself to be a tremendous liar, Hillary has demonstrated neither the ability to lie convincingly nor any indication that she values the truth.

There's been a lot of hay made about Obama's superior ability to speak and reach people. Has it occurred to any of his detractors that this may not be some slick trick? Have you considered the possibility that he comes across with the power of extreme conviction because he actually believes what he's saying?

I've known hundreds, if not thousands of sales people in my time. I can tell you by my measure; it is an extraordinary few that can sell a product they don't believe in with the same zeal as one they do believe in. Bill Clinton proved he was this man with his "biggest fairy tale I ever heard" nonsense… and his finger wagging scandal denial before it. It seems Obama's detractors have convinced themselves that Obama possesses this same ability to tell stories, regardless of the truth. But I've seen no evidence of this.

Rather than tell fairy tails, he consistently tries to sell the truth. Here is a man who stood in a black church and gently chastised them for looking down at gays and Hispanics. Where was the profit in bringing these things up there? This is only one example of what I see as integrity that I'm quite unaccustomed to seeing in politicians.

Now, he really could be another extraordinary liar… like Bill Clinton. I've certainly seen no evidence to the contrary… but until there is some evidence to suggest he is a liar; I'll continue to be quite intrigued by the mere possibility of electing an honest politician.

I have long believed the country would be better served by an honest fool than a brilliant party man. And Obama is certainly no fool. Being quite tired of the business as usual Washington politics; I'll happily take a chance that maybe, just maybe, Obama is that honest man I've been hoping for.

Save your naiveté accusations as I'm neither naïve nor stupid and am, in fact, quite familiar with the cynical majority who scoff at ideas like honest politicians, ending world hunger, and peace. I pity them.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 01:14 pm
Lola wrote:
Obama says he doesn't want it to be about race or gender, apparently he doesn't care about a generational split. How naive. How ignorant about human nature. How foolish when we could have worked together to meet our goals, goals we actually share, one at a time. No matter who wins, we'll all have a very sour taste in our mouths. And I think it will take a long time to heal.



1. Obama has hundreds of thousands of donors who are no where near tapped out on their campaign contribution limits and will continue to donate when he is the nominee.

2. It is obnoxious to point to him as the cause of a generational split while backing the wife of the man who won his presidency using the same tactic.

3. It is selfish to demand younger Americans cater to the Baby Boomer generation because the Baby Boomer generation gave up. Is it their problem that the Boomers were too busy working their way up the ladders of Wallstreet to notice that other generations learned from them and were successfully grooming a network of organizers. Sure sounds like a familiar refrain heard in the 60's.

3. The only thing foolish was the attempt by your candidate to disrupt the unity of the coalition of candidates who agreed to and campaigned accordingly to the rules for this election season regarding MI and FL. It is backfiring and they have placed the unity of the DNC in a no-win situation no matter how the disruption is mended.


How hypocritical.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 01:22 pm
Romney just dropped out.
0 Replies
 
 

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