High Seas
 
  1  
Wed 6 Feb, 2008 10:11 pm
Lola wrote:
High Seas wrote:
Lola wrote:
Since the Republican nominee will be McCain, you know they'll try to scare us about national security. It will be much easier for the Republicans to fight and win against Obama, what with his profound vision about the Iraq war, than against Hillary. She's the moderate one on this question. Any independent can see that her position is the only one that is complicated enough to include all matters of concern.

Obama is the ultra liberal in this election and the Republicans will be all over him. And he won't be able to charm them into playing fair.


Not so, in fact he's far more acceptable to conservative Republicans than she could ever be. It's hard to explain the extent to which Mrs. Clinton is loathed. Obama isn't.


With all respect, High Seas, my friend.....isn't that what any good Republican hoping to win would say to get the most competitive candidate nominated? All the better to beat him.

I know Hillary has been greatly disliked by many Republicans. But I don't think she's so disliked by the moveable middle. And besides you guys are in a mess right now. No one is happy and motivated to do anything but bring in third party candidates. And I can't see the religious Right supporting any of the Republican nominees. These guys are off to shoot themselves in the foot as has been their inclination off and on for a long time. Right now, it's on. Foot shooting, that is.

What I can't wait for is to see Ann Coulter campaigning for Hillary as she promised she'd do if McCain won the nomination.

One Republican tactic will be to use every statement from that speech Obama is so proud of against him. It won't be pretty.


Lola - you can see that both George and Finn explained it better than I could. No matter, do you still have the poker chips and the green felt - will bring the deck with me!
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Wed 6 Feb, 2008 10:15 pm
Lola's not speaking to me.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Wed 6 Feb, 2008 10:26 pm
Lola: It is astonishing how you've equated taking a speech off a website, with never having made it, or meant it, or somehow Clinton who never gave any such speech feels the same. She did speak at the time; about how bad Saddam and his WMD's needed to be neutralized. Frankly, I agreed with her, not Obama. That she will now try to pretend this vividly recorded history didn't take place is only slightly more unbelievable then the fact that millions of intelligent people like you actually believe it. This is what I find very strange.

My example $5,000,000 from Iran was intentionally hypothetical to avoid getting bogged down in a subject I haven't studied sufficiently to wish to argue about. I do know that Cyclo is telling you the straight skinny about the Clinton foundation receiving commitments for over $100,000,000 for introducing a relatively unknown Canadian shell company to a vicious dictator, who incidentally now owns a shell company that is suddenly the biggest uranium supplier around. Seems pretty damning, but I really don't know enough details to actually damn him for it. I do know that I wouldn't want Kazakhstani money anywhere near my presidential elections. In fact; I don't want the spouses of ANY of our elected officials doing business in Kazakhstan… or any other tyrannical shithole… let alone the spouse of one who's running for President. This doesn't strike me as a good thing.

It would take you all of a minute or so to Google up the fact that Goldman Sachs paid him $650,000 for four Bill Clinton speeches in recent years… and coincidentally it's employees and PAC have given Hillary $270,000. Citigroup, whose employees and PAC have been Hillary Clinton's top sources of campaign donations with more than $320,000, coincidentally also paid Bill $250,000 for a single speech AND committed $5,500,000 for Clinton's Global Initiative. Now this may or may not strike you as foul play; but it very definitely paints a picture of Bill's speeches and Hillary's campaign's having a little too much in common to just assume that any money Bill contributes comes without strings. If you think for one moment the Republican Machine won't make this into a mountain, regardless, you are fooling yourself.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Wed 6 Feb, 2008 11:12 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Lola's not speaking to me.


Oh yes I am. I thought you made good points in your last post. And when exactly are you going to finally, finally come to us for a visit?
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 12:01 am
Quote:
Finally it has been very interesting to observe the debate between the Obama and Clinton supporters. It's odd only to the extent that the folks opposing one another are most often aligned with them in the political debates on A2K. The nature and tone of this debate is not very different than those that involve the right vs the left. It may be something of a surprise to have your former allies' guns now turned on you, but trust me, almost no one in either Democratic camp is debating in a style or manner they do not use with the members whom you usually consider mistaken or a vile idiot...depending on how you view these things.


Very well said, Finn. And it's something to think about for sure. It is an example of how some things are hard to really understand until you've been on the other end of the stick.

Quote:
Hillary for all her faults has a very intimate knowledge of what the job entails and requires. She has contemplated every issue facing the nation and many that don't actually exist. I'm not sure that she is always been honest in telling us how she intends to handle these issues, but I am sure that she has plans for everyone of them. She has seen how the true world can, with contempt, slap aside idealistic fancies based on hope and wishes rather than reality and cruel truths.


I agree with what you've said about Hillary above. But I would add that anyone who believes themselves to be or claims to be able to be totally "honest" about complicated problems is someone I will see as either too inexperienced to know otherwise or not honest enough to trust.
And in this respect, I question the logic of what you've said. You would trust Hillary if your life depended on it because she's learned the hard practical lessons you believe to be required. Is this not integrity?

She has taken the responsibility to make hard decisions sometimes or often between two not so good solutions dictated by reality and she's willing to answer for them. She can explain why she made a decision (for instance her decision about the authorization to use force in Iraq). It wasn't a black or white situation at the time and the explanation for her decision is maybe too complicated for some to understand or too threatening for some who hunger for the simplicity of absolute right and wrong, or too easy to use by her opponent, to twist around and pretend that he doesn't understand her answer in order to use it against her. A political technique he claims will be part of the change he's so eager to promise. But her explanation is plausible to me and I understand what she's saying.

Compare that to the responsibility Obama has taken for all those decisions for which he voted "present." He has never tried to explain this situation even though he was asked by both Edwards and Clinton. And his supporters have never required him to answer.

Hillary has been, as she describes herself, a work horse in the Senate. She's worked with a lot of people to get things done, often reaching across the aisle. She's proven herself to me and many others. But Obama has not had the opportunity or the time to prove himself. He actually has demonstrated that I have good reason to think he needs some seasoning.

Anyway, thanks for your respectful reply.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 12:13 am
Quote:

Hillary has been, as she describes herself, a work horse in the Senate. She's worked with a lot of people to get things done, often reaching across the aisle.


Really?

Here's her Senate page:

http://www.senate.gov/~clinton/senate/legislation/

Can you point out what exactly has gotten done, that you would count as an accomplishment worth boasting about?

I would challenge anyone to do that, actually.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 12:18 am
joe, Love your new avitar.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 12:46 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Think there's different levels of momentum in this race?

Clinton loaned herself 5 million dollars last month, and is currently holding a 3-day fundraising drive to raise 3 million dollars online.

Cycloptichorn


And you're sure she loaned her campaign this money from Bill's foundation?

Quote:
Obama, upon hearing of this, organized a drive online - without ever once mentioning his website in a speech or on TV, actually without mentioning the drive at all - and has raised 5.3 million dollars. In 24 hours.


Yes, she's organized this fund drive and she's succeeding. As far as comparing what she's been able to raise to what Obama has raised.....I'll say that it's easy to sell utopia to young idealistic people. Billy Graham has never had any trouble raising money. Does this fact prove his beliefs and values are the best? It's easy to sell donuts. They taste good, very yummy. But since it's easy to do, does that mean that it's the best or healthiest diet? No.

And as far as Hillary's future success in fund raising, we'll see. As I've said before, it's offensive to me........and I'd like to get some open minded consideration of this.....to be dismissed as obsolete. Many of us in my generation have worked very hard, taken the bumps and bruises that come along with that hard work and the learning required to keep going after some of our idealistic plans failed. And here we are, at the height of our lives finally at a point where we're in a position to accomplish some of our greatest goals. If you think we're going to sit down and let that opportunity be taken from us by our own children before their time, you are mistaken. I'm delighted they're finally stepping up to take their place in political life. It's time. And I love them for their efforts.

But I and many people of my generation have worked all our lives to elect a woman to the White House. And not just any ole woman, but one who is capable and respectable enough to deserve it, one who shares our democratic values and will succeed in accomplishing many of the changes we've held dear. We've waited for eight years until the time was right. And we're not going to give up without spending a lot of money and fighting like hell. And as I've pointed out, there are more of us baby boomer Democrats who are still strong than there are of the younger generations. Don't you worry about the money. We'll provide it.

Obama can work for it just like Hillary and the rest of us have done. He has plenty of time to accomplish his goals, especially after he's learned a few lessons. Then I'll be delighted to vote and hopefully elect an African American of his caliber to be president.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 12:46 am
I think the best argument for Hillary is that she has been compromised by her own errors of judgement (think of her 1993 health care fiasco) and the various deceptions and financial dealings of the Clinton Administrations. Moreover she has clearly learned to compromise in the other (far better) sense of the word, and shown herself able to deal with the give and take of politics & governance. She is a worldly political animal whose ambitions are there to be seen and whose many faults are by now mostly visible to us all. One would wish for better and more, however in this case I think we have a good fix on the down side. Moreover she has to a greater degree been tested in adversity - not at all perfect, but we know what we will get.

Obama presents the opposite set of hopes and risks. he is clearly a gifted thinker and speaker. The concepts, complexities and inevitable tensions involved in synthesizing a broad strategy for any major issue come easily to him, and he has the rare ability to convey an impression of these tensions & contradictions while at the same time emphasizing simple, clear approaches to proposed solutions. (Some are perhaps too simple and too general, leaving room for one to wonder if he knows what he doesn't know). All this is very good, but experience in life teaches us that those so gifted often don't have the necessity of developing the habit of rigorous, self critical analysis so necessary to avoid error and self delusion. Often their shortcomings are only discovered when they get in over their heads, conveyed on by a sense (and aura) of omniscience, until things really turn to sheit and take them by surprise.

There is another, related factor as well. I am reminded of the wonderful speech of Nicias recorded in Thucydidies' Peloponesian War. Alcibiades, another inspiring, charismatic young man, had proposed to the city fathers of Athens, in the seventh year of the war with Sparta that finally destroyed the city, that they invade Sicily and that he, Alcibiades would lead the expedition. He generated enough enthusiasm and confidence in his invincibility that the assembly was carried away. Nicias, another city leader, followed Alcibiades to the platform and gave a memorable speech, congratulating Alcibiades on his plan and noting the benefits accruing to him for leading the expedition, but adding words of caution. To paraphrase, he asked rhetorically what if the expedition fails to utterly confound Sparta as promised? Who will defend Athens if our fleet and army are far away and the Spartans don't take the bait? Finally he asked if it was wise of the city fathers to put the safety and fate of the city "in the hands of a young man in a hurry". Unfortunately Nicias' message went unheeded and disaster ensued.

Happily there is an alternative - vote Republican.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 12:51 am
Lola wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Think there's different levels of momentum in this race?

Clinton loaned herself 5 million dollars last month, and is currently holding a 3-day fundraising drive to raise 3 million dollars online.

Cycloptichorn


And you're sure she loaned her campaign this money from Bill's foundation?

Quote:
Obama, upon hearing of this, organized a drive online - without ever once mentioning his website in a speech or on TV, actually without mentioning the drive at all - and has raised 5.3 million dollars. In 24 hours.


Yes, she's organized this fund drive and she's succeeding. As far as comparing what she's been able to raise to what Obama has raised.....I'll say that it's easy to sell utopia to young idealistic people. Billy Graham has never had any trouble raising money. Does this fact prove his beliefs and values are the best? It's easy to sell donuts. They taste good, very yummy. But since it's easy to do, does that mean that it's the best or healthiest diet? No.

And as far as Hillary's future success in fund raising, we'll see. As I've said before, it's offensive to me........and I'd like to get some open minded consideration of this.....to be dismissed as obsolete. Many of us in my generation have worked very hard, taken the bumps and bruises that come along with that hard work and the learning required to keep going after some of our idealistic plans failed. And here we are, at the height of our lives finally at a point where we're in a position to accomplish some of our greatest goals. If you think we're going to sit down and let that opportunity be taken from us by our own children before their time, you are mistaken. I'm delighted they're finally stepping up to take their place in political life. It's time. And I love them for their efforts.

But I and many people of my generation have worked all our lives to elect a woman to the White House. And not just any ole woman, but one who is capable and respectable enough to deserve it, one who shares our democratic values and will succeed in accomplishing many of the changes we've held dear. We've waited for eight years until the time was right. And we're not going to give up without spending a lot of money and fighting like hell. And as I've pointed out, there are more of us baby boomer Democrats who are still strong than there are of the younger generations. Don't you worry about the money. We'll provide it.

Obama can work for it just like Hillary and the rest of us have done. He has plenty of time to accomplish his goals, especially after he's learned a few lessons. Then I'll be delighted to vote and hopefully elect an African American of his caliber to be president.


I think that you should worry about the money. I think that you will see the donations for her drop off quite a bit after Saturday, and then next Tuesday. Too high a percentage of donors are maxed out for it to continue at a high pace.

What really strikes me about what you've written is that this thing just isn't going according to plan for you! You say that Hillary has 'waited for 8 years.' Nobody is guaranteed or owed anything. Hillary will have to fight to win it.

Are you willing to admit that you are afraid she is going to lose?

Btw, Obama is up to 6.5 million by now.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 12:55 am
Also,

Quote:


And you're sure she loaned her campaign this money from Bill's foundation?


Well, we're going to find out, aren't we?

Also,

Quote:
As far as comparing what she's been able to raise to what Obama has raised.....I'll say that it's easy to sell utopia to young idealistic people.


And what about old, idealistic people?

People seem pretty convinced that Hillary has 'experience.' You laid down a line about how she's been a workhorse in the Senate. But what has she actually accomplished there? I never hear actual accomplishments being named by her supporters.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 12:57 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Also,


And what about old, idealistic people?


Cycloptichorn


They are not so easily fooled. See the post on the previous pagge.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 01:00 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Also,


And what about old, idealistic people?


Cycloptichorn


They are not so easily fooled. See the post on the previous pagge.


Guess that's why she's behind on money Laughing

Well, we'll see.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 01:00 am
Obama's experience is in the legislative area and not executive while Hillary was the CEO of her own law firm. I hope she will undo Bill Clinton's business merger of the Mass Media which created the mass media cartels that so hampered the Democrats in the 2000/2004 elections.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 01:02 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Also,


And what about old, idealistic people?


Cycloptichorn


They are not so easily fooled. See the post on the previous pagge.
Nonsense. Click here
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 01:10 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:

Hillary has been, as she describes herself, a work horse in the Senate. She's worked with a lot of people to get things done, often reaching across the aisle.


Really?

Here's her Senate page:

http://www.senate.gov/~clinton/senate/legislation/

Can you point out what exactly has gotten done, that you would count as an accomplishment worth boasting about?

I would challenge anyone to do that, actually.

Cycloptichorn



http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=284812&&

Senator Clinton Welcomes Senate Approval of Measures to Aid Servicemembers and their Families, Address National Security Challenges

Expresses Disappointment that Department of Defense Authorization Bill Does Not Force President to Change Course in Iraq


Washington, DC - Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton today welcomed Senate approval, as part of the FY 2008 Department of Defense (DoD) Authorization bill, of a series of measures she introduced which will help provide needed benefits for servicemembers and their families, help prevent nuclear terrorism, ensure needed oversight of United States action in Darfur, assess readiness for ground forces within the Army and Marine Corps, and address national security threats posed by global warming. The bill will now be considered by a House-Senate conference committee.

"While I am disappointed that the minority has blocked Democratic efforts in this bill to force the President to finally change course and begin to end the war in Iraq, I am pleased that seven of my amendments were included in this year's Defense Authorization bill," said Senator Clinton. "Several of these amendments will provide much needed benefits to our servicemembers and their families, others will address national security concerns such as nuclear proliferation and global warming, and another will require a report on the planning and implementation of the policy of the United States to end the ongoing violence in Darfur. I urge the conference committee to take into consideration the benefits of these amendments and include them in the final conference report."

The seven amendments introduced by Senator Clinton that were included in the Defense Authorization bill passed by the Senate will:

• Protect financial benefits for military family members. Senator Clinton's amendment will protect financial benefits for military family members by closing gaps in coverage for Death Gratuity and Survivor Benefits beneficiaries. When tragedy strikes and a military service member makes the ultimate sacrifice, minor dependent children and their guardians are excluded from receiving certain benefits and entitlements. In too many cases, pre-deployment systems and processes designed to protect military family financial benefits are under-resourced or not available and create an unnecessary burden for survivors.

• Increase burial travel allowances for families of deceased servicemembers. Senator Clinton's amendment requires the Department of Defense (DoD) to authorize burial travel allowances for minor siblings of a deceased servicemember, and when necessary, provide burial travel allowances for the person authorized to direct the disposition of the remains. Currently, only spouses, dependent children, and parents of deceased servicemembers are authorized burial travel allowances; while travel for minor siblings of the deceased servicemember is either paid out of pocket, or with emergency funds provided by DoD. In some instances the emergency fund approval process has been untimely, causing a delay in travel plans or an absence of a family member. Additionally, DoD requires servicemembers to designate an individual responsible for burial arrangements as the "Person Authorized to Direct Disposition." This person can be a spouse, parent, or another blood relative, however only spouses and parents are authorized burial travel allowances. Travel for a blood relative who is serving as the "Person Authorized to Direct Disposition," and who is not a spouse or parent of the deceased servicemember, must pay out of pocket or apply for emergency funds to travel to the burial they are responsible for arranging.

• Increase Temporary Lodging Expenses (TLE) for servicemembers. Senator Clinton's amendment will help the increasing number of servicemembers and their families who are moving to bases without sufficient housing. This problem is especially acute at Fort Drum, New York, where soldiers often have to wait for quarters beyond the 20 day TLE period which greatly inhibits their quality of life. Her amendment provides the Secretary of Defense additional authority to increase the TLE period from 20 to 60 days for those servicemembers moving to a military base experiencing a housing shortage. The current 20 day TLE extraordinary circumstances provision expires on December 31, 2008, and the Clinton amendment extends the new TLE authorities for another year to December 31, 2009. Under normal circumstances servicemembers receive 10 days of TLE when they conduct a permanent change of station move. When a military base cannot provide quarters within the 10 day TLE period, the Department of Defense can increase the TLE period to 20 days. However, after the 20 day TLE period expires without housing being provided, the servicemember pays out of pocket for temporary lodging until permanent housing is assigned or a rental housing unit is made available.

• Expand and extend a Government Accountability Office (GAO) study to conduct a comprehensive assessment of the readiness of the ground forces within the Army and Marine Corps. The GAO study would also assess the impact on the ground forces of the troop surge initiated by President Bush. The Senator's amendment is aimed at providing additional transparency of the true readiness of the military, to better identify where Congress can help focus its efforts.

• Address national security risks posed by global warming by implementing many of the recommendations of a report authored by eleven retired three and four-star admirals and generals and released by the CNA Corporation in April. The study, "National Security and the Threat of Climate Change," concluded that global warming presents a "serious national security threat." The study examines how projected climate changes, such as rising sea levels, more intense tropical storms, and increased flooding and drought, will have destabilizing impacts, including reduced access to fresh water, impaired food production, and displacement of major populations. The study concludes that these impacts could act as a "threat multiplier" and increase the potential for failed states, cause mass migrations that add to global tensions, and increase conflict over resources.

• Help prevent nuclear terrorism. Senator Clinton's amendment would require the president and relevant federal departments and agencies to work with the international community to create specific minimum standards for the security of nuclear weapons and weapons-usable fissile material, to convince other countries to adopt these standards, and to assist other countries in meeting and maintaining them. The amendment would also require an annual report to Congress that would include a prioritized diplomatic and technical plan - including measurable milestones, metrics, estimated timetables, and estimated costs of implementation - to eliminate or secure all weapons-usable nuclear material anywhere in the world, and progress in implementing that plan. The report would also include a prioritized list of vulnerable sites around the world with nuclear weapons or weapons-usable nuclear material where security upgrades are needed most urgently.

• Ensure oversight of U.S. action in Darfur. Senator Clinton's amendment requires the Department of Defense (DoD) and the Department of State to report on the planning and implementation of the policy of the United States to end the violence in Darfur, including any plans for a no-fly zone, and ensure appropriate Congressional oversight of U.S. activity in the region. The report also requires an evaluation of the government of Sudan's compliance with its obligations under international law. In addition, the report calls for a comprehensive assessment of the impact of a no-fly zone for Darfur, including on humanitarian efforts in the region, and a plan to minimize any negative impact on those efforts.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 01:12 am
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=279218&&

Senator Clinton Speaks on the Senate Floor on Iraq

Washington, DC - Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton delivered remarks on Iraq on the floor of the Senate at 4:12 am this morning as part of the debate leading up to consideration of the Levin-Reed amendment, of which she is an original co-sponsor.

[A transcript of Senator Clinton's remarks is below]

Mr. President, the description of the problems that are currently existing in Iraq and in the region by my friend and colleague is not only accurate, but unfortunately, an indictment of the policies of this Administration. What has been described in terms of the instability in Iraq and the consequences for further conflict are ones that I take very seriously.

The issue before us now is what is the best approach that we, as a nation, can take that will fulfill our obligations to our men and women in uniform, that will make clear to the Iraqi government and people that their lives and futures are at stake, and will strengthen the hand of the United States diplomatically to deal with the consequences of the misguided policies that have brought to us this point. There are no good answers. Anyone who stands here and believes that he or she has the truth, the facts, understands both what is going on and what is likely to flow from whatever decision we take is most probably to be proven wrong by reality as it unfolds. Many of us have been searching for the best approach to take with respect to our involvement in Iraq for a number of years. But we don't do it with any sense that we know everything that will happen no matter what decisions are taken.

But what we do have is a history of miscalculation and mistakes that we are now attempting to deal with. The Levin-Reed Amendment attempts to put into law a new direction for Iraq, one that I and others believe is long overdue.

The reason that I have come to support this amendment is because if one looks at the actions of our military in Iraq based on the authority under which they are operating, they have achieved the missions they were given. They were asked to remove Saddam Hussein from power and bring him to justice, and they did so. They were asked to provide the Iraqi people with the opportunity for free and fair elections, and they did that as well. They were asked to give the Iraqi government the space and time to make the difficult political decisions that are required in order to have any hope of stabilizing Iraq over the longer term, and they did that as well. Our military has performed not only heroically, but successfully, with courage and determination against odds and enemies from all sides.

What we know is that when the people of Iraq turn against violence, there is a chance for success. That's the basis of the counterinsurgency strategy. It cannot succeed unless the people on the ground are part of the winning strategy.

What has happened in Al Anbar province is an example of that. The tribal sheikhs and the people turned against the violence and extremism of the Al Qaeda factions, many of whom were led by foreign fighters who violated not just the human rights, but the cultural norms that existed in the area. So there became the opportunity for an alliance, an alliance between our military and local people against Al Qaeda. That is why the Levin-Reed Amendment includes the continuing efforts against Al Qaeda as a remaining mission and a vital national security interest of the United States.

If one looks, though, at the map that was just on the easel, that does not describe the situation in the rest of Iraq. In the south, I think it is clear that Iran is the political occupier, that Iranian agents are largely calling the shots and that there is an internecine struggle for power among a variety of Shiite militias. The lawlessness inside Basra and in the surrounding region cannot be quelled by any external force. The British have not only drawn down their troops, but they've withdrawn to their bases. They know they can't go out and calm the waters, because the various factions are vying for power. They're going to continue to do so until someone emerges. And Iran is largely influential in determining who that might be.

In Baghdad, we've gone from neighborhood to neighborhood. And, yes, where we are, we secure the area. The violence recedes only to pop up somewhere else, either in Baghdad or maybe in Diyala or Baqoubah or somewhere else.

So, Madam President, the problem is that Iraq is not Al Anbar province. Al Qaeda is not the major source of the instability in Iraq. It conducts the most violent and spectacular missions. It provides the suicidal killers who blow themselves up and blow up the cars and trucks in which they live at the moment. But they are not the primary cause of the violence and instability in Iraq.

Therefore, the counterinsurgency cannot succeed unless there is a dramatic change in the attitude of both the government and the people of Iraq. I do not see that happening.

The Iraqi government has not been willing to make the hard decisions. The debate as to whether they are incapable or unwilling is beside the point. They haven't done it. We keep hearing every year, every month, every week: things will be different. How many times have we heard that as the Iraqis stand up, our troops will stand down? How many times have we heard that in 6 months, 8 months, 12 months our troops may start coming home?

Meanwhile, there are more American troops in Iraq today than ever before. The Iraqi government is more fractured and less effective.

The right strategy before the surge and the right strategy now, post-escalation, is the same. Start bringing our troops out of this multisided, sectarian civil war. I believe since our troops have accomplished the missions that were originally set forth, that withdrawing them from urban combat, from patrol duty, from the kind of hand-to-hand engagement that they are currently confronted by is the right military and political strategy.

It is clear that as we look at where we are today in Iraq, we are asking our young men and women to police a civil war. There is no argument about the very basic premise that there is no military solution.

And yet, the political front has been neglected. If there had been a political surge and a diplomatic surge, we might be looking at a different situation.

We also know that the training and performance of the Iraqi army and police forces have not been sufficient to relieve our troops of the primary responsibility for the fight. In fact, because of setbacks and other problems, the number of Iraqi troops that are actually available to fight alongside or to take responsibility for the fight has diminished.

And as our troops serve alongside Iraqi army officers and soldiers, they find that, yes, some do have loyalty to Iraq. Others, however, are loyal to sectarian militias. Others have looked the other way when the insurgents have planted bombs. And some have even taken up arms against Americans while wearing the uniforms that we helped provide.

The catalog of miscalculations, misjudgments and mistakes in Iraq shocks the conscience. And the unilateral decision to rush to a preemptive war without allowing the inspectors to finish their work or waiting for diplomacy to run its course, to the failure to send enough troops or provide proper equipment for them, to the denial of a rising insurgency and the failure to adjust the military strategy, to continued support for a government unwilling to make the necessary political compromises, to the adherence to a broken policy more than four years after the invasion began.

Many of us believe that it is time for us to move our troops out of harm's way in the middle of the Iraqi civil war. We believe that is an appropriate military decision that will be made sooner or later.

The recent report which was an interim report did not have very much good news in it. In September, we will get another report which I predict will be also mixed, which will put the best face on whatever the facts are, but the bottom line will remain the same. Our troops and their families are paying the price for this administration's policies.

Since the Bush administration announced this escalation, 14 brave New Yorkers have been killed in Iraq and hundreds more wounded. Two soldiers from the Tenth Mountain Division based in Fort Drum listed as captured or missing.

Since the war began, 3,619 young Americans have been killed. 26,000 wounded. Many with very visible wounds, loss of limbs, loss of eyes. Others with those wounds that are invisible but no less injurious. Depression, anxiety, post traumatic stress disorder and traumatic brain injury.

We've spent more than $450 billion so far, $10 billion each month. We're straining our budget. The president's two major initiatives since he was sworn into office in January 2001 have been tax cuts for the rich and the war in Iraq, neither of which he's paid for. They have been put on the American credit card. They have been funded by borrowing money from foreign countries, further undermining our standing and our leverage in the world.

Our involvement in Iraq continues to erode our position. It has damaged our alliances and it's limited our ability to respond to real threats. The unclassified key judgments of the recent National Intelligence Estimate, called the Terrorist Threat to the U.S. Homeland, says that the threat of Al Qaeda is persistent and evolving. The report states that Al Qaeda will probably seek to leverage the contacts and capabilities of Al Qaeda in Iraq, its most visible and capable affiliate and the only one known to have expressed a desire to attack the homeland.

This reality is a sobering one and I believe one that demands a new direction. I continue to press for a basic three-step approach. First, start bringing our troops out of harm's way now. Second, demand and back up those demands that the Iraqis take responsibility for their country or lose the aid we are providing them.

Everyone knows that the Iraqi government is as much a client of Iran as it is an ally of the United States. Our presence in this multisided sectarian civil war without a diplomatic or political strategy makes it unlikely that the Iraqi government will seek the resolution of the disputes that lie at the heart of this ongoing civil war.

Thirdly, we should begin long overdue intensive regional and international diplomacy on a sustained basis. Now, diplomacy in and of itself does not promise any great solution, but we have neglected it at our peril. Others have rushed to fill the vacuum. In fact, the problems that were pointed out on the map of the region have also been impacted by the Administration's failure to pursue smart diplomacy. And as we look at the deteriorating situation in the Middle East, the pressures on the Israeli government because of the rise of Hamas and the strength of Hezbollah, we can see the consequences of both our failed diplomatic strategy and our problems in Iraq today.

I have called for the strategic redeployment of U.S. forces out of Iraq for several years. I've introduced legislation to end the war, but to remain committed to vital national security interests that can be enumerated and more carefully defined. I voted against funding the war without any plan for ending it or without any companion efforts to engage in realistic, political, and diplomatic initiatives.

That is why I joined a bipartisan majority in supporting the Levin-Reed Amendment. It has been very difficult to get the President's attention. I hear that from both sides of the aisle. The Congress has both a duty and an opportunity to try to do that. We have one Commander in Chief at a time, and we have seen repeatedly this Administration fail to deal with the realities that we confront in Iraq and elsewhere around the world. When they do change course, as long as it takes them to make that decision as we have just seen in North Korea, the results can be very positive. And I can only hope that in the remaining 18 months of this Administration, similar actions are undertaken to deal with the problems we confront in the larger region, including Iraq and the Middle East.

I believe, too, that it's imperative that the Secretary of Defense and the Joint Chiefs inform the Congress of the plans they have for redeployment and withdrawal. Withdrawing troops is dangerous and difficult. We must not redeploy out of Iraq with the same failure of planning with which our troops were deployed into Iraq. And yet, I wrote several weeks ago to Secretary Gates and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General Pace, asking whether there is planning, very specific planning, not the usual response "Oh, yes, we plan for everything, we plan for every contingency." What is the planning that will protect our troops when they do withdraw, which will happen, whether it happens in 120 days or it happens next year or it happens the year after? What have we done to make sure that we do it in as careful and orderly a way as possible?

Madam Chairman, I believe our troops, as well as the American people, deserve a vote yes or no on this bill. If you believe in giving the President the continued power to pursue a failed strategy without checks or balance by this Congress, make your case and cast your vote. If not, then put partisanship aside and stand with the bipartisan majority working to end this war.

Our message to the President is clear: It's time to start thinking of our troops and our broader position in Iraq and beyond, not next year, not next month, but today.

I hope, Madam President, that we will be able to vote on the Levin-Reed Amendment. I fear that we will not in the face of objections on the other side, but we are just postponing the inevitable. Come September, we will have another inconclusive report. We will have more casualties, we will have more who are injured, we will still have the same Iraqi government waiting us out. We will continue to empower Iran and to destabilize Jordan and to give a free hand to Syria and Hezbollah, and we will face an even more dangerous set of choices then. There is no reason to wait.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 01:15 am
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=273572&&

Quote:
Senator Clinton Announces Legislation to End Authority for Iraq War



Washington, DC - In remarks on the Senate floor, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton announced that she and Senator Robert Byrd will introduce legislation to end authority for the war in Iraq. The legislation will propose October 11, 2007 - the five year anniversary of the original resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq - as the expiration date for that resolution.

"The American people have called for change, the facts on the ground demand change, the Congress has passed legislation to require change. It is time to sunset the authorization for the war in Iraq. If the president will not bring himself to accept reality, it is time for Congress to bring reality to him," said Senator Clinton on the Senate floor.

The following is a transcript of Senator Clinton's remarks on the Senate floor:

SENATOR CLINTON: Madam President, I rise to join my colleague and friend, Senator Byrd, to announce our intention to introduce legislation which proposes that October 11, 2007 - the five year anniversary of the original resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq - as the expiration date for that resolution.

As Senator Byrd pointed out, the October 11, 2002, authorization to use force has run its course, and it is time to reverse the failed policies of President Bush and to end this war as soon as possible.

Earlier this week, President Bush vetoed legislation reflecting the will of the Congress and the American people that would have provided needed funding for our troops while also changing course in Iraq and beginning to bring our troops home.

I believe this fall is the time to review the Iraq war authorization and to have a full national debate so the people can be heard. I supported the Byrd amendment on October 10, 2002, which would have limited the original authorization to one year and I believe a full reconsideration of the terms and conditions of that authorization is overdue. This bill would require the president to do just that.

The American people have called for change, the facts on the ground demand change, the Congress has passed legislation to require change. It is time to sunset the authorization for the war in Iraq. If the president will not bring himself to accept reality, it is time for Congress to bring reality to him.

I urge my colleagues to join Senator Byrd and me in supporting this effort to require a new authorization resolution, or to refuse to do so, for these new times and these new conditions that we and our troops are facing every single day. Madam President, I yield the floor.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 01:18 am
http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=291425

Quote:
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Thu 7 Feb, 2008 01:21 am
Oops. Right director; wrong video. Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGWtm8bcoPU
0 Replies
 
 

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