maporsche
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 08:06 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
maporsche wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I would fight against this plan.


Glad to hear it Cyclops. The status quo is much better.


I don't think it's fair to force people to pay for something for which there is no guarantee of the costs.


Who is suggesting that this is the case? Clinton's plan calls for reduced costs as well. Even if those reduced costs don't come down as far, there is still a cap on what an individual/family can pay. Obama's plan has the same cost reduction challenges that Clinton's plan has, stop pretending that it doesn't.

Quote:

Let me ask you a question: how is it determined who is rich enough to afford to pay, and who receives subsidies?


It's capped at a percentage of a family's/persons income. Anything above that cap is subsidized.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 08:09 pm
maporsche wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
maporsche wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I would fight against this plan.


Glad to hear it Cyclops. The status quo is much better.


I don't think it's fair to force people to pay for something for which there is no guarantee of the costs.


Who is suggesting that this is the case? Clinton's plan calls for reduced costs as well. Even if those reduced costs don't come down as far, there is still a cap on what an individual/family can pay. Obama's plan has the same cost reduction challenges that Clinton's plan has, stop pretending that it doesn't.

[quotes]
Let me ask you a question: how is it determined who is rich enough to afford to pay, and who receives subsidies?


It's capped at a percentage of a family's/persons income. Anything above that cap is subsidized.[/quote]

Another question for you:

What's the difference between a family who makes 50k a year in Houston, Texas, and one who makes 50k a year in New York city?

If the costs don't come down, it doesn't matter if the gov't subsidizes the costs or not; you still pay those costs! Don't you understand that when the gov't subsidizes something, it comes out of tax dollars? And that you pay those tax dollars?

You can't get something for nothing, yo

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 08:14 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
maporsche wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
maporsche wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I would fight against this plan.


Glad to hear it Cyclops. The status quo is much better.


I don't think it's fair to force people to pay for something for which there is no guarantee of the costs.


Who is suggesting that this is the case? Clinton's plan calls for reduced costs as well. Even if those reduced costs don't come down as far, there is still a cap on what an individual/family can pay. Obama's plan has the same cost reduction challenges that Clinton's plan has, stop pretending that it doesn't.

Quote:

Let me ask you a question: how is it determined who is rich enough to afford to pay, and who receives subsidies?


It's capped at a percentage of a family's/persons income. Anything above that cap is subsidized.


Another question for you:

What's the difference between a family who makes 50k a year in Houston, Texas, and one who makes 50k a year in New York city?

If the costs don't come down, it doesn't matter if the gov't subsidizes the costs or not; you still pay those costs! Don't you understand that when the gov't subsidizes something, it comes out of tax dollars? And that you pay those tax dollars?

You can't get something for nothing, yo


Well, YO, I'm not ignorant in that the difference will come from our tax dollars. Obama's "Freeloader Plan" will come out of our tax dollars too, and will be much more expensive and penalizing to voters.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 08:21 pm
1st, there's no evidence that his plan will be more expensive.

2nd, it won't be more expensive to those who don't pay into it. That's called 'choice.'

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 08:24 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
1st, there's no evidence that his plan will be more expensive.

2nd, it won't be more expensive to those who don't pay into it. That's called 'choice.'


No, it will be more expensive for those that choose to buy health insurance. Those that don't pay into are are those FREELOADERS that I'm referring to. Those same ones who will cause the healthcare of everyone else to rise.



A point was made about healthcare plans in other countries that tried to do this w/o a mandate.....and now most all of them have mandates. I find their experiences interesting.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 08:26 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
1st, there's no evidence that his plan will be more expensive.


No, it's going to be much cheaper with all these people foregoing preventitive treatment, wellness education from their doctors, and using the emergency room as their doctor's office.

Talk about short term thinking.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 08:34 pm
maporsche wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
1st, there's no evidence that his plan will be more expensive.

2nd, it won't be more expensive to those who don't pay into it. That's called 'choice.'


No, it will be more expensive for those that choose to buy health insurance. Those that don't pay into are are those FREELOADERS that I'm referring to. Those same ones who will cause the healthcare of everyone else to rise.



A point was made about healthcare plans in other countries that tried to do this w/o a mandate.....and now most all of them have mandates. I find their experiences interesting.


I'm afraid that you've slipped into a little bit of hyperbole. Those that do not buy into the plans do not make healthcare more expensive for everyone else. Nobody has claimed that they do, other then yourself.

You never told me what the difference was between a family who makes 50k a year living in Houston and one who lives in NYC making 50k a year. Is there a difference?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 08:43 pm
Call me crazy, but misusing the emergency room as a doctor's office is still better than no doctor's office at all.

It seems like you are more concerned with people misusing the system. I'm concerned too, but not cynical enough to stalemate a system that can help a lot of people eager to use it properly.

As for misusing a system, I'd rather the system being misused for the benefit of the citizen and not the benefit of the health care providers or drug companies.

Call me crazy. 2 Cents

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 09:10 pm
Alright Giants!


(sorry)
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 09:12 pm
With any luck this is a good omen -- the season of the underdog?
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 09:14 pm
Diest TKO wrote:
Call me crazy, but misusing the emergency room as a doctor's office is still better than no doctor's office at all.

It seems like you are more concerned with people misusing the system. I'm concerned too, but not cynical enough to stalemate a system that can help a lot of people eager to use it properly.

As for misusing a system, I'd rather the system being misused for the benefit of the citizen and not the benefit of the health care providers or drug companies.

Call me crazy. 2 Cents

T
K
O



I agree with you. I'm not saying that people shouldn't use the emergency room if they don't have health insurance. What I'm saying is that these costs are passed onto tax payers.

Under Obama's plan, the tax payers are responsible for those w/o healthcare. The Freeloader Plan.

Under Clinton's plan, no one can get away from buying healthcare, so we all are responsible. The American way.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 09:19 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:

You never told me what the difference was between a family who makes 50k a year living in Houston and one who lives in NYC making 50k a year. Is there a difference?


Sure there is.

Does our progressive income tax system make any allowances for cost of living? Does the person in NYC pay the same income tax as the person in Houston?

How about Social Security? Do they both get the same check?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 09:30 pm
Butrflynet wrote:
1. Her husband was reading it to her.

2. He didn't qualify it as a letter to the editor before reading it to her.

3. When she went through the paper looking for it, she didn't find it because she was looking for an article not a letter to the editor.

4. She didn't bother looking online since she had the paper right in front of her.

She's been corrected, she's admitted the faulty quotation.

Can we get beyond this now, please?


Thank you.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 09:38 pm
maporsche wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:

You never told me what the difference was between a family who makes 50k a year living in Houston and one who lives in NYC making 50k a year. Is there a difference?


Sure there is.

Does our progressive income tax system make any allowances for cost of living? Does the person in NYC pay the same income tax as the person in Houston?

How about Social Security? Do they both get the same check?


Who determines the cost of living in each state? How is this determined? Are you advocating that it is not important?

If that's true then I assure you that some will be forced to pay, but unable to afford it.

Also, how will we charge people who post no income each year, who receive no paycheck - yet still use the system? What about people who don't file taxes?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 10:10 pm
Let's put it into perspective. I believe every state has some sort of federally subsidized Medicade program for the poorest citizens and most wealthier Americans have insurance if they want it. (Here in New Mexico, the 'evil Bush economics' apparently put so many people over the income threshhold that the state was actually advertising for people to sign up for Medicade.) Medicare provides insurance for the elderly with free basic healthcare and low cost supplemental insurance. That leaves the working poor just over the threshhold income level for Medicade who have a difficult time finding affordable insurance coverage.

A state pool could fill that gap just as a state pool for liability insurance helps out many small businesses who otherwise can't get it.

And as gradual privitization of current government funded programs is the most sensible way to go, its hard to make a good case for need for the government to take over and mismanage 13% to 20% of the nation's economy by ensuring healthcare to everbody.

As for who pays taxes and who is treated unfairly and who is likely to wind up paying for universal healthcare, consider this (with no claim of fine point accuracy but it is similar to charts/graphs I've seen on the CATO site, Heritage Foundation etc.):

First visit THIS SITE to see how much the average American is hit with the tax bite.

Then, bearing in mind that the median income for an American family in 2006 was I think around $48,000, there is this:

Quote:
The Top 50% pay 96.54% of All Income Taxes(The top 1% pay more than a third: 34.27%)
The share of total income taxes paid by the top 1% of wage earners rose to 34.27% from 33.71% in 2002. Their income share (not just wages) rose from 16.12% to 16.77%. However, their average tax rate actually dropped from 27.25% down to 24.31%

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/3882/cy2003par0008imagefileah7.gif

*Data covers calendar year 2003, not fiscal year 2003 - and includes all income,not just wages, excluding Social Security

Think of it this way: less than 3-1/2 dollars out of every $100 paid in income taxes in the United States is paid by someone in the bottom 50% of wage earners.

Are the top half millionaires? Noooo, more like ""thousandaires."" The top 50% were those individuals or couples filing jointly who earned $29,019 and up in 2003. (The top 1% earned $295,495-plus.) Americans who want to are continuing to improve their lives, and those who don''t want to, aren''t. Here are the wage earners in each category and the percentages they pay……

The top 1% pay over a third, 34.27% of all income taxes. (Up from 2003: 33.71%)

The top 5% pay 54.36% of all income taxes (Up from 2002: 53.80%).
The top 10% pay 65.84% (Up from 2002: 65.73%).

The top 25% pay 83.88% (Down from 2002: 83.90%).

The top 50% pay 96.54% (Up from 2002: 96.50%).

The bottom 50%? They pay a paltry 3.46% of all income taxes (Down from 2002: 3.50%).

The top 1% is paying nearly ten times the federal income taxes than the bottom 50%! And who earns what? The top 1% earns 16.77% of all income (2002: 16.12%). The top 5% earns 31.18% of all the income (2002: 30.55%). The top 10% earns 42.36% of all the income (2002: 41.77%); the top 25% earns 64.86% of all the income (2002: 64.37%) , and the top 50% earns 86.01% (2002: 85.77%) of all the income.
http://ballyblog.wordpress.com/2006/10/20/only-the-rich-pay-taxes/


NOW who is going to pay the horrendous cost of ensuring that every American has health care? You raise the marginal rate for that top 25% or so and they'll again move more of their assets and income off shore so they can shelter more of it.

The poor? They aren't paying now.

So that leaves those folks in the middle to pick up the bill, and that probably includes a lot of those folks working at Walmart too.

And THAT is why there is such resistance to a federally funded universal healthcare plan no matter who proposes it.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 10:10 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
McCain has already ruined this argument for you, Finn.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/mccain_bush-hug-713122-1.jpg

You'd better get used to seeing this picture.

Cycloptichorn


Ditto:

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/2199/obamanopatriotfk4.jpg
0 Replies
 
nappyheadedhohoho
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 10:25 pm
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Maybe the government should just send everyone a check for $50,000 on January 1 each year. It can be funded with the taxes taken from people who want to work. Heck the mere fact that they want to work evidences an advantage over the rest of their fellow Americans. Whatever a family doesn't need can be refunded the government every December 31st. With that money the government can fund the military.


A simpler solution is for the state to confiscate all wages, then give back a portion based on how much you deserve and whether you will spend it wisely.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 10:28 pm
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Alright Giants!


(sorry)


Very good game.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 10:51 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
With any luck this is a good omen -- the season of the underdog?


According to blatham, that will be the Republican
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 11:19 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
McCain has already ruined this argument for you, Finn.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/mccain_bush-hug-713122-1.jpg

You'd better get used to seeing this picture.

Cycloptichorn


Ditto:

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/2199/obamanopatriotfk4.jpg


Laughing no worries man, no worries.

I'm sure you could find a picture worse then that. Right?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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