Obama '08?

Walter Hinteler wrote:

The following from today's Chicago Tribune (section 2, page 2;

Quote:
FINE POINT
A look at the week in Washington
Linguist has message for Democrats

By Michael Tackett.

Instead, Lakoff says, Democrats must change the nature of the debate, starting by rejecting the premise that America is in fact at war. The war, he says, ended when President Bush said it did with his "Mission Accomplished" stunt on an aircraft carrier. Now, Democrats should refer to the conflict as an occupation. They should say U.S. troops were not trained to be occupiers and that they were betrayed by administration policy, with the U.S. weakened as a result.

I picked out the above out of the entire article because I thought it illustrated a very important point: It is a great example why many Democrats lack credibility in the minds of so many. They said the war did not end when Bush did the "Mission Accomplished" on the aircraft carrier. Now, the proposal is to change their message, that the war is over, and now we are occupiers, not because they believe it apparently, but because it might win more votes. Lakoff sounds like another phony. His proposals are based on what he thinks the people want to hear, not what HE actually believes. Conclusion, the Democrats must wake up everyday and say, "how do I fool the people today?"

Actually, I don't know where Lakoff has been but this mantra has been going on for quite a while. So we are left to ask out here, what do the Democrats really actually believe?

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soz

Perhaps you ought to spin off a separate thread for the language stuff and put the related posts there, leaving this one for its original purpose.

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<shrug> I don't mind too much, it's related in that a) I said in the first post that this could become about the Dems in general and b) it relates to Obama in that he stands out from the Democratic pack in this respect.

As long as it stays roughly on THAT topic and doesn't devolve into the personal poo-flinging stuff.

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soz, I understand your points and agree with you.

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Following is copied/pasted from the print version of today's Chicago Tribune (18.07.2006, section one, page 11, Commentary). The online version is to be found here.

Quote:

THE RELIGIOUS DIVIDE

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Continued from above

Quote:

Conservatives' to-do list

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Thanks for posting that, Walter. I'd heard a lot about that speech, but hadn't tracked it down yet.

This is long for a sig line, but I absolutely adore it:

Quote:

Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religionspecific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.

I do wince a bit at the part about "under god" in the pledge of allegiance. I didn't like it, when I was a kid. But to go back to what I just quoted, there are non-religious reasons to remove "under god," such as the fact that those words were only added in 1954, 62 years after the pledge was written.

However, I think the underlying ideas are stellar, and happy to see him talking about them.

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sozobe wrote:

I do wince a bit at the part about "under god" in the pledge of allegiance. I didn't like it, when I was a kid.

This is a tangent, but I'm curious: How did you feel about the ritualized "I pledge allegiance" to begin with? The whole pledge has a decidedly East German feel to it that I find absolutely repulsive. And I'm sure it's not just me -- few of us in school would have stood for it if our teachers had tried to make us say a pledge of allegiance to Germany. Obviously our nations' different histories play a role here -- but were you, personally, fine with the pledge itself, and was the "under god" part your only problem with it?

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That's a good point -- no, I didn't like any of it.

To be more precise, my school didn't do it at all, so I only encountered it occasionally -- camp, say. I knew the words and everything but I hated the whole business. I do remember "under god" standing out though -- I'd just kinda meaninglessly mumble that part, then start up again after it.

Sozlet recently had a class that was objectionable in all kinds of ways, and at their graduation they did the pledge and I was grumpy and stood but wouldn't do it. Sozlet glared at me and jogged my elbow so I'd do the hand over heart thing, but I wouldn't say the words. Probably unnecessarily contrarian -- Im not downright anti-America or anything -- but yeah, I dislike the whole thing.

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Thomas wrote:

The whole pledge has a decidedly East German feel to it that I find absolutely repulsive.

Exactly - that's what a always thaught .... at a time when you were still playing with some toys the storks through in some pond.

Thomas wrote:

And I'm sure it's not just me -- few of us in school would have stood for it if our teachers had tried to make us say a pledge of allegiance to Germany.

I doubt that any teacher would have even tried to do so at my time .... if he wanted to stay in her/his job.

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sozobe wrote:

Sozlet glared at me and jogged my elbow so I'd do the hand over heart thing, but I wouldn't say the words.

I told ya, yer raising a little Republican there. Maybe you could ask her if Obama would swing her vote, and let her compose a country song for him if she likes him.

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Heaven forfend! Laughing

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Thomas wrote:
The whole pledge has a decidedly East German feel to it that I find absolutely repulsive.
Exactly - that's what a always thaught .... at a time when you were still playing with some toys the storks through in some pond.

Difference is, you probably liked East Germany back then, you old socialist you. Wink

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Thomas wrote:
And I'm sure it's not just me -- few of us in school would have stood for it if our teachers had tried to make us say a pledge of allegiance to Germany.

I doubt that any teacher would have even tried to do so at my time .... if he wanted to stay in her/his job.

Just to give our American correspondents some impression of most Germans' allergy to organized patriotism: Fifteen years ago or so, in the state of Baden-Württemberg, the "Kultusminister" (secretary of education) wanted to make it mandatory that children learn the national anthem in music classes -- including the text. A majority of constituents thought this disqualified him as a far-out right winger, and he almost lost his party the next election over this.

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Back to the subject: Walter's link points to a speech that's in many ways typical for Obama. If you read it rationally, he isn't really saying anything mind-boggling. But he manages to express even ordinary messages in a way that inspires people. If I was a Republican candidate facing a presidential TV debate with Obama, I'd be very, very afraid.

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Thomas wrote:

Back to the subject: Walter's link points to a speech that's in many ways typical for Obama. If you read it rationally, he isn't really saying anything mind-boggling. But he manages to express even ordinary messages in a way that inspires people. If I was a Republican candidate facing a presidential TV debate with Obama, I'd be very, very afraid.

I think so too, walter. He's the best thing I've seen come over the horizon for a long while.

For what it might be worth, he's got Warren Buffet in his camp.

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Don't mix me up with this Baden-Würtembergish-Bavarian liberal, blatham, although I sometimes (like here and re patriotic anti-Dutch football sentiments) agree with him!

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walter

You've seen one german...etc.

But I was referring to Thomas' sentence re some Republican finding himself in a debate with the fellow.

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Oh, I see...I addressed the post to "walter"...duh. It must be the heat (and my god it is hot here)

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Thomas wrote:

Back to the subject: Walter's link points to a speech that's in many ways typical for Obama. If you read it rationally, he isn't really saying anything mind-boggling. But he manages to express even ordinary messages in a way that inspires people. If I was a Republican candidate facing a presidential TV debate with Obama, I'd be very, very afraid.

Hey, thomas-
Do you resemble Phil Collins in person? Because that's who your avatar reminds me of...

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blatham wrote:

Oh, I see...I addressed the post to "walter"...duh. It must be the heat (and my god it is hot here)

So...you are promoting Obama in the forum also.

Thought it was just for my pleasure and education last night.

Okay....we'll see where it goes.

Twisted Evil

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