Obama '08?

sozobe wrote:

I've said a few times I don't like the messianic thing.

I don't think it's a good enough reason NOT to support him, in and of itself, but I get the hesitation.

I had never heard anyone say it that way before. It is concerning.

I'm not going to 'not' support him either if he gets the nomination....but I've now got my ears open.

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maporsche wrote:

Obama will unite the country in the same manner that Jesus united the worlds religions.

Will Obama also walk on water?

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dyslexia wrote:

maporsche wrote:
Obama will unite the country in the same manner that Jesus united the worlds religions.
entirely too much koolaid. try home brewed beer instead.

I guess you didn't get the joke.

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maporsche wrote:

... Jesus united the worlds religions.

When did Islam join ranks with Judaism?

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maporsche wrote:

dyslexia wrote:
maporsche wrote:
Obama will unite the country in the same manner that Jesus united the worlds religions.
entirely too much koolaid. try home brewed beer instead.

I guess you didn't get the joke.

Obviously I'm too stupid and don't have a sense of humour. Btw your complaint re Obama is what?

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Miller wrote:

maporsche wrote:
... Jesus united the worlds religions.

When did Islam join ranks with Judaism?

That of course is the joke Miller.

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dyslexia wrote:

maporsche wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
maporsche wrote:
Obama will unite the country in the same manner that Jesus united the worlds religions.
entirely too much koolaid. try home brewed beer instead.

I guess you didn't get the joke.
Obviously I'm too stupid and don't have a sense of humour. Btw your complaint re Obama is what?

No complaint. I just prefer Hillary in the primaries. If she loses I will support Obama or Edwards.

No problems with the guy or his message (except I think he is niave with all that he thinks he can get done).

I do have a problem now that I know people are referring to him as though he's a messiah. That is a scary revelation. I haven't decided if that is reason enough to fault him though.

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eoe wrote:

sad.

Hey, it can never hurt to laugh about yourself... Tico's post made me see myself as a bit player in this crazy spectacle, and I couldnt help laughing when he brought the popcorn. Smile

Like, reality check on the silliness of it.

Blatham, though, has just seriously pissed me off. Consider it personal. He got offended by all my criticism, so now he's giving me the treatment he normally reserves for conservatives: respond to every critical argument with an ad hominem insult.

I seriously expected him to send an apologetic PM or something after the first time round, when it had me really upset actually - I've always had a problem with his style, but I actually liked and respected him nevertheless. I would have been perfectly eager to welcome him as a guest if he ever made it to Budapest and show him around the city. But apparently he's decided I'm one of the bad guys now and so is perfectly OK with being an ass. Fine. Then I'm perfectly OK with calling him one. Been enough already.

eoe wrote:

Me either. This is all so borderline Magical Negro-ish that's it's ridiculous. Now you can't simply have a black man who transcends on his merits, his accomplishments, his experience. Oh no. He's got to be Messianic. Supernatural.

You guys really are sad.

I cant look into the heart of Maporsche etc, but it was Thomas who wrote about the "messianic" thing most. And to deduct from Thomas's take on Obama that he must just be seeing it through some "magical negro" racist angle is out of line. He's not American, he's German, and he's therefore from a background with a baggage and instinctive associations all of its own. We're all coming at this from very different backgrounds, so it's worth showing a little cross-cultural understanding for where his response to a certain type of crowd response may be coming from.

I still havent seen Obama's speech from last night yet myself, will do once I can - Stasia's asleep so I'm being quiet now. I'm betting that I'll like it - he does great speeches, and I read that this one was his best yet. But I share some of Thomas's sensitivities as well, so I guess I might also well 'get' what he's talking about when I watch it. Hope that doesnt make me sad or racist.

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eoe wrote:

Me either. This is all so borderline Magical Negro-ish that's it's ridiculous. Now you can't simply have a black man who transcends on his merits, his accomplishments, his experience. Oh no. He's got to be Messianic. Supernatural.

You guys really are sad.

Were you talking to me in the post. I thought it was directed to Roxxxane, who was the one that brought up "messianic" into this conversation.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

nimh wrote:
That would be because turnout overall was 61% women, 39% men. That's pretty typical for Democratic primaries. In Michigan, 59% of Democratic primary voters were women; in both Iowa, New Hampshire and Nevada, it was 57%.

Wasn't this a pretty recent phenomenon?

Good question. Dont know really - there's been a "gender gap" in support between Dems and Reps for decades, but I dont know whether that played out so starkly in the turnout in primary contests before. Lemme look..

Here's the Dem primary exit poll for Iowa in 2004, and from there you can navigate to other states. Turns out that:

In the Dem primaries in Iowa in 2004, turnout was 54% women, 46% men; in New Hampshire, it was 54/46 too. In South Carolina, the gap was a little wider back then as well, at 57/43.

So the 'gender gap' in turnout has increased now compared to '04. Of course, overall turnout is much higher this time, so this doesnt mean that fewer men take part now than then. But it does mean that new women are being attracted by the campaign in noticably larger numbers still then men.

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maporsche wrote:

sozobe wrote:
I've said a few times I don't like the messianic thing.

I don't think it's a good enough reason NOT to support him, in and of itself, but I get the hesitation.

I had never heard anyone say it that way before. It is concerning.

I'm not going to 'not' support him either if he gets the nomination....but I've now got my ears open.

For what?

I hadn't read, like, pages and pages of new stuff when I responded, by the way. I've been out for a while, and clicked the orange page thingie to take me where I'd been last, and then responded to what was on that page. So a more thorough response after skimming some of what happened since:

I think Obama himself is quite straightforward and has a nice ironic edge to cut through the crap. He's quick to make fun of himself and while I think you need to have something of an ego to run for president in the first place, I think he's refreshingly grounded and, well, normal. I don't think he has a runaway ego or that he actually thinks of himself as being messianic.

However, two things. One, I think the media gets ahold of the whole rock star/ fervent response he gets and calls it messianic. Two, and this is worse and what I've complained about before, I think his campaign staff gets into the act sometimes. For example, I don't like his current website picture, the whole glowy thing with the white shirt and looking up at him as he looks off into the distance, and "I'm asking you to believe..." next to that. The picture on the front page is much better. (Just plain looking at the camera, surrounded by his family.)

So, a) while I don't think HE thinks of himself as messianic and I'm not worried about how this all translates to what kind of a president he'd be, b) I get why people see a certain messianic haze around him and that it makes them nervous. I think the solution is for him to keep pushing the specifics, get things a little bit more mundane amidst the sublimity. I support him because I like that mundane detail stuff, the policies, the meat and potatoes of who he is and what he will do... and because I am impressed with his ability to get people excited about that stuff. ("It was a call to reasonableness, but he made it sound thrilling.")

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I tend to agree with Finn's last post - except fpr the concluding sentence.

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maporsche wrote:

I do have a problem now that I know people are referring to him as though he's a messiah. That is a scary revelation. I haven't decided if that is reason enough to fault him though.

Wait, who's referring to him as though he's a messiah?

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sozobe wrote:

maporsche wrote:
I do have a problem now that I know people are referring to him as though he's a messiah. That is a scary revelation. I haven't decided if that is reason enough to fault him though.

Wait, who's referring to him as though he's a messiah?

Well isn't that what "Messianic appeal" means? Roxxxane even said it with a capital M, which is normally reserved for the savior. As an adjective it means "relating to the Messiah".

That term being invoked in any discussion about a politician or anybody for that matter is enough for me to do a double-take.

Like I said, I don't know if Obama is stoking these flames, but the fact that there are flames makes me want to put out the fire.

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OK, that makes more sense and what I have been responding to.

I see more pejorative uses than positive ones. I don't think his supporters actually think of him as the Messiah.

I can't speak for Roxxxanne but I thought she meant that it's not necessarily a bad thing for a politician to be able to inspire and electrify crowds -- not that yes, in fact, he is the Messiah.

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As I wrote earlier, Messianic has definitions which transcend the religious. The usage is correct without any religious connotation; but the word is charged with religious meaning and that only in the minds of many, so it's a bad term to use for Obama.

I think a common tactic of Hillary supporters is to focus so much on his style and people's response to it, and extrapolate that into thinking that that's all he's got. It clearly isn't, though it is one of his greatest strengths. And he does resemble Reagan that way; he is an awesome communicator.

Cycloptichorn

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Hillary even has to tell women voters that she's "one of the girls."

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Seattle Times endorsed Obama today

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/editorialsopinion/2004145661_obamaed27.html

Excerpt:

"Obama speaks eloquently about media issues. His positions encourage a public worried about a consolidated media. He supports network neutrality and laments media consolidation. He co-sponsored a bill to stop recent changes to the cross-ownership rule adopted by the Federal Communications Commission. Obama says he would appoint FCC commissioners who will work in the public's interest and against media concentration."

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

As I wrote earlier, Messianic has definitions which transcend the religious.

The word "messianic" has definitions that transcend the religous.

The word that was used was "Messianic", which when used refers to the religious definitions.

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The San Jose Mercury News endorsed Obama and McCain today; my picks.

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