cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 3 Dec, 2007 10:50 pm
It's hard to believe that Edwards was ahead of Clinton in June/July.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 05:21 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
It's hard to believe that Edwards was ahead of Clinton in June/July.

Just in Iowa, though! Not nationally...
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 05:58 am
Nimh you've been exhaustively poring over polls since 20 months before the national election. Do you feel you've either gained or shared insights commiserate with all the effort?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 06:27 am
snood wrote:
Nimh you've been exhaustively poring over polls since 20 months before the national election. Do you feel you've either gained or shared insights commiserate with all the effort?

For some of us, crunching numbers and interpreting statistic isn't an effort to be justified. It's fun!
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 06:52 am
""So you decide which makes more sense: Entrust our country to someone who is ready on day one ... or to put America in the hands of someone with little national or international experience, who started running for president the day he arrived in the U.S. Senate," Clinton said."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071203/D8TA91782.html

Sounds to me, Clinton is talking about herself!!

Obama should use her own words against her.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 07:28 am
snood wrote:
Nimh you've been exhaustively poring over polls since 20 months before the national election. Do you feel you've either gained or shared insights commiserate with all the effort?

Well, I've had a lot of fun doing it... and made a lot of really pretty-looking graphs! Razz

Basically, what Thomas said. I find it fascinating. The workings and trends and the gaming of it - that part is probably the same kind of fun that someone else might have in playing fantasy football or the like. (I mean, OK, so thats what I did when I was a kid :wink: ).

But also all the detail about different states, their demographic and electoral peculiarities and differences, and the breakdowns by age, gender etc.. How people of different backgrounds and in different places differ in their reactions.. it's a cool way of learning lots of interesting, if sometimes random, little things about US culture/geography/history. (What's up with Duluth, for example?)

I did notice that the reception of my efforts here has been very different than in '04.. Back then I had a whole separate thread on polls and data, which a small band of A2Kers seemed to follow with enjoyment.. and we had fun there, bantering and exchanging ever new information, that people seemed to be interested in not necessarily out of partisan engagement but just for the facts (and hell) of it. But now, as often as not, what I get back seems to be mainly annoyance.

Perhaps it's because the polls thread back then drew mostly people who kind of were fascinated by the race itself, I mean the tricks and marbles of it, regardless of any partisan preferences they had. Those momentarily took a backseat or were dealt with playfully in that thread. This time I've been posting within the regular threads, and well, I suppose every poll and analysis of polls has one or the other poster's candidate behind, or looking badly, or seeing his strategical flaws revealed, and so someone appears to be perennially slightly pissed off. That part is kind of deflating. But tracking the numbers and mining the details and compiling the tables and graphs itself is just fun - and no more peculiar a hobby, I guess, than - say - sitting by the riverside catching fish and then throwing them back again Razz
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 07:35 am
Thanks for the analysis (-ses) and the pretty graph too. :-)
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 04:37 pm
Obama has been offered several golden opportunities to nail Hillary,she keeps throwing softballs and he keeps ignoring them.
I wonder why.

She has attacked him for writing in a third grade paper that he wanted to be President, claiming that proved he had desided to run for the Presidency much earlier then he claimed.
He should have hit that out of the park.

She has assailed him for his supposed PAC, and he ignored the chance to nail her for the many PAC's she is supposed to have.

I cant help but wonder if he really wants to be President, because he doesnt seem to be fighting back at all.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 04:40 pm
Kindergarten, actually.

I don't know details but he's promising to fight back, actually. I got this email from Obama today:

Quote:
When I decided to run for president, I accepted that my opponents would dig through my record looking for something to attack.

I didn't realize they'd go all the way back to kindergarten.

I'll respond to each of the Clinton campaign's desperate attacks directly and honestly. But when I respond to each attack, I want to be able to say that I am not alone.

I want to be able to say that 10,000 people responded with me in the first 48 hours. And we're almost there.

Respond now with your donation of $25, and show our opponents that this kind of negativity will only make us stronger in our determination to bring about the change America needs:

[I removed the link, I think it noses up against the TOS]

It's going to take all of us to change this game once and for all.

Thank you,

Barack
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 04:41 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Obama has been offered several golden opportunities to nail Hillary,she keeps throwing softballs and he keeps ignoring them.
I wonder why.

She has attacked him for writing in a third grade paper that he wanted to be President, claiming that proved he had desided to run for the Presidency much earlier then he claimed.
He should have hit that out of the park.

She has assailed him for his supposed PAC, and he ignored the chance to nail her for the many PAC's she is supposed to have.

I cant help but wonder if he really wants to be President, because he doesnt seem to be fighting back at all.


His numbers are rising and hers are falling. Not hard to see that things are going his direction.

I think that if she continues to use such blatantly stupid campaign tactics, there's no reason for him to even have to say anything. Why bother telling people what they already know?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 04:41 pm
And I'm back in my actually rut, actually.

It happens now and then.

Actually.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 04:49 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
Obama has been offered several golden opportunities to nail Hillary,she keeps throwing softballs and he keeps ignoring them.
I wonder why.

She has attacked him for writing in a third grade paper that he wanted to be President, claiming that proved he had desided to run for the Presidency much earlier then he claimed.
He should have hit that out of the park.

She has assailed him for his supposed PAC, and he ignored the chance to nail her for the many PAC's she is supposed to have.

I cant help but wonder if he really wants to be President, because he doesnt seem to be fighting back at all.


His numbers are rising and hers are falling. Not hard to see that things are going his direction.

I think that if she continues to use such blatantly stupid campaign tactics, there's no reason for him to even have to say anything. Why bother telling people what they already know?

Cycloptichorn


Of course, it doesnt help her that she has Bill campaigning for her.
I heard a report last week that at a campaign appearance for her, he mentioned himself about 90 times and mentioned her only about 7 times.
I dont know if thats true, but if it is it isnt helping her at all.

Now Bill is claiming that she is a victim, that the press wont cover her accomplishments fairly.

So, what are those accomplishments?
What makes her qualified to be President?
If the fact that she was first lady of Arkansas and then of the US makes her qualified, then Laura Bush is also qualified.

Why wont the Clintons release ALL of the records and e-mails from when they were in the WH and let us all see what she did during his admin?

She is giving Obama every opportunity to beat her, lets see if he takes advantage of it.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 04:54 pm
I do agree with you that I'd like to see him answer the charges. (Anyone know where the charges are? I've seen them referred to but not the actual charges. I'll go look.) I'd prefer firm and dismissive -- like "What kind of idiocy is this, geez? Obviously it's not true and I'm setting the record straight [sets record straight]. Now let's move on. About my energy proposal..." (Not that it'd be that exact wording, but tone.)

I wouldn't want too much fight to it I don't think -- this is a real opportunity, I think, Iowa-wise, and getting too aggressive in response wouldn't maximize that opportunity. But he can't let it go, either.

Will definitely be interested in what his response is -- sounds like he plans to do it within 48 hours (I got the email at about noon today).
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 04:58 pm
Found it!

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=4479

OK, you were right about third grade:

Quote:
In third grade, Senator Obama wrote an essay titled 'I Want To Be a President.' His third grade teacher: Fermina Katarina Sinaga "asked her class to write an essay titled 'My dream: What I want to be in the future.' Senator Obama wrote 'I want to be a President,' she said." [The Los Angeles Times, 3/15/07]

In kindergarten, Senator Obama wrote an essay titled 'I Want to Become President.' "Iis Darmawan, 63, Senator Obama's kindergarten teacher, remembers him as an exceptionally tall and curly haired child who quickly picked up the local language and had sharp math skills. He wrote an essay titled, 'I Want To Become President,' the teacher said." [AP, 1/25/07 ]


But now they're backtracking and saying it was just a joke!

http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics/2007/12/clinton-aide-sa.html

Heh. This might be good!
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 05:04 pm
sozobe wrote:
Found it!

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=4479

OK, you were right about third grade:

Quote:
In third grade, Senator Obama wrote an essay titled 'I Want To Be a President.' His third grade teacher: Fermina Katarina Sinaga "asked her class to write an essay titled 'My dream: What I want to be in the future.' Senator Obama wrote 'I want to be a President,' she said." [The Los Angeles Times, 3/15/07]

In kindergarten, Senator Obama wrote an essay titled 'I Want to Become President.' "Iis Darmawan, 63, Senator Obama's kindergarten teacher, remembers him as an exceptionally tall and curly haired child who quickly picked up the local language and had sharp math skills. He wrote an essay titled, 'I Want To Become President,' the teacher said." [AP, 1/25/07 ]


But now they're backtracking and saying it was just a joke!

http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics/2007/12/clinton-aide-sa.html

Heh. This might be good!


Something tells me that this "joke" is going to backfire on Hillary, big time.
When I was in third grade, I wanted to be the President, then a cowboy, then an astronaut, then a police officer.
I didnt become any of them, but since I wrote it does that mean I've been scheming and planning it all this time?

I dont think so.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 05:04 pm
This seems to be part of Obama's response:

http://hillaryattacks.barackobama.com/
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 05:05 pm
Yeah, Edwards had a good comment:

Quote:
That didn't stop John Edwards, who ranks third in Iowa polls, from having some fun with Obama's alleged third-grade ambitions. "I think that does present a serious character question," he said teasingly in Waterloo. "I want to confess to all of you, in third grade, I wanted to be two things. I wanted to be a cowboy and I wanted to be Superman."

His verdict: "Boy, you can tell you're getting close to the caucus."


http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2007-12-03-obama_N.htm
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 05:08 pm
The wholle Drama is nothing to do with normal DECENT civilized citizen's future nor anything to do with democracy.
I am quoite sure Obama is an alibi contestant.
i will be depressed even after the election.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 07:58 pm
sozobe wrote:
Thanks for the analysis (-ses) and the pretty graph too. :-)

Thanks Soz! Smile
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Tue 4 Dec, 2007 08:27 pm
The whole what-Obama-said-in-Kindergarten thing is really oddness abounding... and it's certainly backfired. I must have read about it in a dozen places now, and without exception the reaction was one of scathing ridicule towards Hillary. Definitely a wrong move.

That said - it was a really grasping demonstration of incredible pettiness on the part of the Clinton camp - but am I the only one who can actually imagine what they were trying to point out? I mean, Obama - we're talking the guy here who, just last month, was high-mindedly postulating,

    "I am not in this race to fulfill some long-held ambitions or because I believe it's somehow owed to me. I never expected to be here, I always knew this journey was improbable. [..] I am running in this race because of what Dr. King called "the fierce urgency of now." Because I believe that there's such a thing as being too late. And that hour is almost upon us."
It was a barely veiled attack against she whose name could not be mentioned. Hillary, the hardly concealed implication was, is in the race merely for reasons of personal ambition, to fulfil some long-standing plan of personal success. This dug directly at the wingnut theories that have long entered a kind of public semi-awareness about the Clinton couple's supposed long-standing plot for successive power. Obama, on the other hand, he's above that, he seems to be saying here - he's clean, he's in the race out of a more worthy calling, a Dr. King kind of calling, "the fierce urgency of now".

Now Hillary's campaign was being spitefully petty digging up "dirt" about primary school papers, of all things, so it ended up just looking desperate. But to take up the role of devil's advocate here, I can see the holier-than-thou streak of Obama's that they were so annoyed about and ended up trying to lash out at.

In reality, as Blatham I think has repeatedly pointed out when defending Hillary, it takes a degree of personal ambition for anyone to even enter the slug of a political career that extents even to the long haul of a presidential race - there's noone who manages that purely through idealism. Blatham did have a point that the attacks against Hillary as somehow being specifically "driven by ambition" were at the least exaggerated; unfair to the extent that, of course, in the end they all are. The papers showing Obama the ten-year old (or whatever it was) declaring he wanted to be president neatly underscored that, so I can actually see how they got into the temptation of using it to slam back at him on this count.

It's just mystifying that the idea wasnt shot down in time by a more level-headed mind in the campaign.
0 Replies
 
 

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