Thomas
 
  1  
Thu 7 Jun, 2007 02:45 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Another utopian fantasy that needs to be exposed is the logical fallacy that government can regulate a fair playing field where poor people can expect the same quality of care as the rich. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Strictly speaking no; but Germany's system is closer to this "utopian fantasy" than it is to America's status quo. The same is probably true for the other healthcare systems in Europe.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Thu 7 Jun, 2007 02:52 pm
Thomas wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Another utopian fantasy that needs to be exposed is the logical fallacy that government can regulate a fair playing field where poor people can expect the same quality of care as the rich. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Strictly speaking no; but Germany's system is closer to this "utopian fantasy" than it is to America's status quo. The same is probably true for the other healthcare systems in Europe.
No disagreement here; but I believe the Top end has been lowered just as surely as the low end has been raised to accomplish it in every single payer system. The best compromising solution for narrowing the gap is to pick up the tab on the low end without fettering the high end. Do you disagree?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Thu 7 Jun, 2007 02:54 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Thomas wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Another utopian fantasy that needs to be exposed is the logical fallacy that government can regulate a fair playing field where poor people can expect the same quality of care as the rich. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Strictly speaking no; but Germany's system is closer to this "utopian fantasy" than it is to America's status quo. The same is probably true for the other healthcare systems in Europe.
No disagreement here; but I believe the Top end has been lowered just as surely as the low end has been raised to accomplish it in every single payer system. The best compromising solution for narrowing the gap is to pick up the tab on the low end without fettering the high end. Do you disagree?

No I agree with that. (And by the way, Germany's universal healthcare isn't single-payer. It's private enterprise with very tight regulations slapped onto it.)
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Thu 7 Jun, 2007 04:04 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
There is only one best cardiologist and he can't treat everyone. The best (and better) anything is always going to be the most expensive…

In the Dutch system, a hospital will have a department of, say, cardiology, and people who call for an appointment are divided equally among the cardiologists. Cardiologists have no right to pick and choose only certain patients, for example only the ones with expensive insurance.

Your point does hold up for, say, psychiatrists, who can just open up their own shop, separate from the hospitals and municipal mental health care clinics. But both GPs and hospitals have to accept subsidized patients and private-insurance patients alike, and the doctors working in the hospitals are simply assigned patients by rote.

OCCOM BILL wrote:
and if you attempt to regulate out his ability to charge accordingly; all you will accomplish is replacing fair competition with a system of bribery where some parasitical piece of **** profits in lieu of the man who legitimately deserves the higher premium (which of course, discourages that man from existing at all).

I dont understand what you're saying here, and dont recognize what problem you'd have with, for example, hospital cardiologists being assigned patients by rote, without distinction between state- or subsidized-insurance ones and private-insurance ones

OCCOM BILL wrote:
Ask any former Soviet what government regulated "fair playing fields" accomplish;

I think there was a whole lot more wrong with Soviet-style government than its pretense of wanting to create "fair playing fields". I think that the miserable quality of Soviet health care can far more plausibly be attributed to that range of flaws that come with dictatorial communism, than with the principle of regulation promoting fair playing fields.

To wit, there is a bevvy of West-European social- and christian-democracies that have also put a lot of regulation in place to create something a lot more like a "fair playing field" than what you have in America - and apart from a country like, say, Italy, it hasnt devolved at all into the "favor-system of friends and bribes" that you describe.

The "if you put regulation in place to curb the market's injustices you move toward the Soviet system and you know how that worked out" argument is black and white thinking, and I think a straw-man too. Putting regulation in place to do just that, does not correlate with moving toward a Soviet system. All it moves you towards is a more social-democratic system, and when it comes to health care access, quality and costs, those social-democratic systems havent done too badly at all compared to the States.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Mon 11 Jun, 2007 07:23 am
Very interesting issue of the New York Times Magazine. It doesn't say much about Obama. But it's almost entirely dedicated to income inequality and how it affects liberal thinkers and politicians in America.

    [url=http://www.nytimes.com/indexes/2007/06/10/magazine/index.html]Click here for the title page[/url]

Come on, click it already. It really, really, really is an interesting read.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Mon 11 Jun, 2007 07:26 am
Yeah, I started to, looked interesting, haven't finished it yet.

(By the way, Edwards got that mole or whatever it was removed from his upper lip. Much less distracting to see him talk now.) (Thought of it 'cause he's the cover boy.)
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Mon 11 Jun, 2007 07:46 am
(Here's a story about the mole removal; he did it shortly after the 2004 campaign wrapped up. When I was looking for that, I found this, indicating that I wasn't the only one who found it horribly distracting.)
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Mon 11 Jun, 2007 07:55 am
Good for him. Now that the mole is removed, people can focus on the real issues in Edwards's campaign -- starting with his haircut.
0 Replies
 
eoe
 
  1  
Mon 11 Jun, 2007 08:37 am
Thomas wrote:
Good for him. Now that the mole is removed, people can focus on the real issues in Edwards's campaign -- starting with his haircut.


Laughing
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Mon 11 Jun, 2007 08:46 am
Now they can focus on the mole on his butt!
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Mon 11 Jun, 2007 10:12 am
I watched Colon Powell on Meet the Press the other night and was somewhat intrigued by what he didn't say…

He defended his going to bat for the war campaign, making it quite clear that he really did believe the faulty intelligence he delivered and explained that sometimes Intel gets it wrong. He further stated that nothing in his speech was any different than what he'd already been saying, based on the best Intel available at the time and that he wasn't surprised to be tapped for it, since that was the case. I believe this man. At the same time; he was also careful to opine that he didn't think the war was justified without WMD and that an 11th hour about face was in order… but matter-of-factly added that also in his opinion; anyone who thinks Saddam wasn't seeking dangerous weapons, or wouldn't have resumed his quest for them in earnest once the restrictions were lifted wasn't basing their opinions in reality.

Now what struck me as more interesting is, shortly after confirming that Obama has indeed sought him out for foreign policy advise, Tim asked him if he was endorsing anyone's bid for President; "Too early". Tim, "Will that someone be a Republican?" Powell, "I'll be endorsing the best man for the job." He didn't say anything directly, and in truth, Russert didn't ask him anything directly; but the undertone I read seemed to indicate a possible Obama endorsement in his future. He also indicated deadpan serious that he wasn't interested in any elected roll in government, but would consider appointments in the future.

I don't know what you guys think; but I think Powell's endorsement would be quite a feather in Obama's cap. I would also welcome a man with Powell's knowledge, experience and integrity and wonder how far across the aisle tapping him for a cabinet position would reach. Very interesting, what he didn't say.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Mon 11 Jun, 2007 10:15 am
OK, so let me get this straight.

Powell endorses Obama, and he'll be appointed to what if he wins? Dog catcher of Georgetown?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Mon 11 Jun, 2007 10:17 am
Quote:

I don't know what you guys think; but I think Powell's endorsement would be quite a feather in Obama's cap. I would also welcome a man with Powell's knowledge, experience and integrity and wonder how far across the aisle tapping him for a cabinet position would reach. Very interesting, what he didn't say.



I agree. Though Powell has lost a little bit of luster after his UN presentation - and I for one don't buy the 'he believed the intel' line one bit, as he was reportedly furious at the time that he had been asked to read such lies in front of the UN - he's still considered to be sane by most Liberals, and he definitely appeals to the moderate crowd.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
noinipo
 
  1  
Mon 11 Jun, 2007 11:02 am
Let's face it, Powell prostituted himself to make the case for the illegal war. He will never live it down.
If he was so pure and honest, he would have never worked for the Republicans.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Mon 11 Jun, 2007 11:09 am
noinipo wrote:
Let's face it, Powell prostituted himself to make the case for the illegal war. He will never live it down.
If he was so pure and honest, he would have never worked for the Republicans.
Thanks for taking the time to disqualify your opinion as hyper partisan nonsense before closing.
0 Replies
 
noinipo
 
  1  
Mon 11 Jun, 2007 11:47 am
Thanks for your hyper partisan opinion.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Mon 11 Jun, 2007 06:25 pm
O'Bill:

Quote:
I would also welcome a man with Powell's knowledge, experience and integrity


Well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad...
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Tue 12 Jun, 2007 07:47 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
I watched Colon Powell on Meet the Press the other night and was somewhat intrigued by what he didn't say…

He defended his going to bat for the war campaign, making it quite clear that he really did believe the faulty intelligence he delivered and explained that sometimes Intel gets it wrong. He further stated that nothing in his speech was any different than what he'd already been saying, based on the best Intel available at the time and that he wasn't surprised to be tapped for it, since that was the case. I believe this man. At the same time; he was also careful to opine that he didn't think the war was justified without WMD and that an 11th hour about face was in order… but matter-of-factly added that also in his opinion; anyone who thinks Saddam wasn't seeking dangerous weapons, or wouldn't have resumed his quest for them in earnest once the restrictions were lifted wasn't basing their opinions in reality.


Sounds like a man good at riding the fence.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 12 Jun, 2007 07:51 pm
I think I'll step quietly out the door while no one is looking.
0 Replies
 
eoe
 
  1  
Tue 12 Jun, 2007 08:32 pm
okie wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
I watched Colon Powell on Meet the Press the other night and was somewhat intrigued by what he didn't say…

He defended his going to bat for the war campaign, making it quite clear that he really did believe the faulty intelligence he delivered and explained that sometimes Intel gets it wrong. He further stated that nothing in his speech was any different than what he'd already been saying, based on the best Intel available at the time and that he wasn't surprised to be tapped for it, since that was the case. I believe this man. At the same time; he was also careful to opine that he didn't think the war was justified without WMD and that an 11th hour about face was in order… but matter-of-factly added that also in his opinion; anyone who thinks Saddam wasn't seeking dangerous weapons, or wouldn't have resumed his quest for them in earnest once the restrictions were lifted wasn't basing their opinions in reality.


Sounds like a man good at riding the fence.


What true politician isn't?
0 Replies
 
 

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