hawkeye10
 
  0  
Fri 9 Sep, 2011 12:34 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
. The Republicans in Congress are polling far lower than the Dems in Congress


No, Dems are doing slightly better , getting approval of the mid 30's while the REPUBS are around 30%. You I am sure have confused the low teens number for the approval of congress as a whole with the REPUB in Congress rating, because your thinking is sloppy like that....

http://www.pollingreport.com/cong_dem.htm

http://www.pollingreport.com/cong_rep.htm

http://www.pollingreport.com/CongJob.htm
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Fri 9 Sep, 2011 12:39 pm
The DOW is in the ditch today, currently down over 3%, which is blamed mostly on Europe fears but still it is now clear that the Obama and Bernanke efforts yesterday to jaw bone their way out of the rout have landed with the thud.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Fri 9 Sep, 2011 12:43 pm
@hawkeye10,
This is fun

Quote:
The speech mostly gave us a sense of déjà vu. From the president’s language, you would never know that Congress already has acted under his watch to save jobs — the $800 billion stimulus plan passed shortly after he took office.

“Over the next two years, this plan will save or create 3.5 million jobs,” Obama proclaimed in a speech to a similar joint session of Congress on Feb. 24, 2009. We’re not sure about the jobs saved part, but the country has certainly not created jobs since then — there are almost 2 million fewer jobs since he made those remarks 2 1/2 years ago. That gives a sense of the economic burden he will carry into his reelection campaign.

So here’s a pop quiz. Which of the following quotes came from the 2009 speech, and which quotes came from the speech this week?

1. “More than 90 percent of these jobs will be in the private sector — jobs rebuilding our roads and bridges; constructing wind turbines and solar panels; laying broadband and expanding mass transit.”

2. “It will lead to new jobs for construction workers, teachers, veterans, first responders, young people and the long-term unemployed.”

3. “It’s a plan that won’t help speculators or that neighbor down the street who bought a house he could never hope to afford, but it will help millions of Americans who are struggling with declining home values — Americans who will now be able to take advantage of the lower interest rates that this plan has already helped bring about. In fact, the average family who refinances today can save nearly $2,000 per year on their mortgage.”

4. “We’re going to work with federal housing agencies to help more people refinance their mortgages at interest rates that are now near 4 percent — a step that can put more than $2,000 a year in a family’s pocket, and give a lift to an economy still burdened by the drop in housing prices.”

5. “Ask yourselves — where would we be right now if the people who sat here before us decided not to build our highways and our bridges; our dams and our airports? What would this country be like if we had chosen not to spend money on public high schools, or research universities, or community colleges? Millions of returning heroes, including my grandfather, had the opportunity to go to school because of the GI Bill. Where would we be if they hadn’t had that chance?”

6. “History reminds us that at every moment of economic upheaval and transformation, this nation has responded with bold action and big ideas. In the midst of civil war, we laid railroad tracks from one coast to another that spurred commerce and industry. From the turmoil of the Industrial Revolution came a system of public high schools that prepared our citizens for a new age. In the wake of war and depression, the GI Bill sent a generation to college and created the largest middle-class in history. And a twilight struggle for freedom led to a nation of highways, an American on the moon, and an explosion of technology that still shapes our world.”

7. “It also charges this Congress to come up with an additional $1.5 trillion in savings.”

8. “We have already identified $2 trillion in savings over the next decade.”

9. “The only way to fully restore America’s economic strength is to make the long-term investments that will lead to new jobs, new industries, and a renewed ability to compete with the rest of the world.”

10. “If we provide the right incentives and support — and if we make sure our trading partners play by the rules — we can be the ones to build everything from fuel-efficient cars to advanced biofuels to semiconductors that are sold all over the world.”

11. “To preserve our long-term fiscal health, we must also address the growing costs in Medicare and Social Security.”

12. “But with an aging population and rising health care costs, we are spending too fast to sustain the program. And if we don’t gradually reform the system while protecting current beneficiaries, it won’t be there when future retirees need it. We have to reform Medicare to strengthen it.”

(Answers: 2009 speech contained 1, 3, 6, 8, 9 and 11)


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/obamas-jobs-speech-deja-vu-all-over-again/2011/09/08/gIQA9amvDK_blog.html?hpid=z1
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 9 Sep, 2011 12:44 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

You ignore one very important point: Germany and Canada were not suffering from the Great Recession. This is a very different time and place in the world economies.

No, you missed the point entirely. The grat recession as you call it affected the whole developed world, including both Germany and Canada. However these countries, because of previous efforts to substantially reduce both the accumulated level of their public debt, the cost pf their social welfare programs and increase incentives toi work in their labor policies, each weathered the storm with relative ease.

cicerone imposter wrote:
why at $2 trillion? it;s because I'm looking at the minimum base from which our economy will benefit, and for the potential for enough tax revenue to make up this spending in a reasonable period of time.
You missed the point here too. In the first place, how do you know the $2 trillion is really the "minimum base from which our economy will benefit"? More to the point though was my suggestion that, if your assumption that the effects of a $2 trillion "stimulus"with borrowed money will benefit the country, why not do $10 million and get five times the benefit? I fooered this just to point out the absurdity of the thinking behind all this. If everyone works for the government we will have a hard time paying their wages based on taxes collected from them. This government has already amply demonstrated it knows how to waste trillions of dollars without comparable economic benefit.

cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Fri 9 Sep, 2011 12:50 pm
@hawkeye10,
I'm more apt to look at these numbers.

Quote:
PollingReport.com


CONGRESS – Job Rating
See also: Detailed trend


...................Approve........ Disapprove

NBC/Wall Street Journal

8/27-31/11 13...................... 82
.

AP-GfK

8/18-22/11 12........................ 87
.

Gallup

8/11-14/11 13....................... 84
.

Fox RV

8/7-9/11 10............................. 81

CNN/Opinion Research

8/1/11 ..... 14........................ 84
.

Gallup

7/7-10/11 18....................... 77
.

Fox RV

6/26-28/11 20..................... 71
.

CBS/New York Times

6/24-28/11 20...................... 70
.

Time

6/20-21/11 21........................ 72

0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 9 Sep, 2011 12:52 pm
@georgeob1,
It's a guess, georgeob. If you wish to question the amount, please explain why you disagree with this number? I'll then have something to hang my hat on. You'll also have to explain "why not $10 trillion?" Why not?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Fri 9 Sep, 2011 01:05 pm
I just finished reading the text of the President's speech. There were a few good ideas in it and I welcomed the acknowledgment that we need to make some changes in meficare to reflect the changing demographics of our population. Too bad he didn't also include social security, which is subject to precisdely the same demograpbic effects and long-term unsustainability, but that would likely be an impediment to some of the political demagogery he and his cohort plan to employ in the coming months.

Mostly though I was concerned by the childish simplicity of it all. Was he talking down to us? Does he think we are that stupid? This impression intensified as I recalled that the last Congress which his party controlled from wall to wall, failed to even bother to pass a budget for the fiscal year that was almost one third over when it ended, and that the mandeted budget submission the President offered (only a few months ago) didn't contain any of the initiatives he proposes now, but did contain wildly unrealistiv spenmding levels what would have seriously worsened the debt problems that he now acknowledges.

I thought it was a sad spectacle, one that amply exhibits the now familiar puerile cleverness with respect to political gamesmanship and, as well, the lack of real comtent and gravitas that we have come to expect from him.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Fri 9 Sep, 2011 01:11 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Mostly though I was concerned by the childish simplicity of it all. Was he talking down to us? Does he think we are that stupid?
When used car salesman use this tactic is is because they have decided that we can be bullied...

You will notice that those who have the money drive this train, and as we see in the markets to day they have yawned in the face of the Obama threats....They dont take Obama seriously and neither will the REPUBS. In fact so far it seems that the REPUB organized response to the Obama speech is to ignore it.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -4  
Fri 9 Sep, 2011 02:09 pm


There is a growing urgency in this country to vote Obama out of the White House.
Americans wish they could make this happen 'right away', but we all must wait for election day.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Fri 9 Sep, 2011 02:24 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Obama requested that it be paid for by finding additional cuts in the upcoming negotiations. If you had paid attention to what he actually said, you might realize this.


I paid a lot of attention to what he said, and it was all a con job.

Another con is his "request" for additional cuts from the Special Committee

The Special Committee is going to have a hard enough time coming up with $1.5 trillion in cuts that they can agree upon.

What's another $500 billion?

Is this the plan he promised to reveal in a week?

Asking a small group of congressmen to find the money?

And what they can't find, we'll take from millionaires and billionaires after he gets elected and the economy turns around just because of the news that we have four more years of The Expectd One.

What a farce
Rockhead
 
  3  
Fri 9 Sep, 2011 02:28 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
how far does our economy and infrastructure have to crumble before it is permissible to ask those who are still making big profits to pay a larger share?

really.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Fri 9 Sep, 2011 02:41 pm
@Rockhead,
It's entirely permissible to ask them right now.

Since Warren Buffet and the fellow billionaires he believes think just like him are not prepared to simply give the government their money, why doesn't Obama just ask them for it. Warren insists he really wants to give it to us, is it too much to ask him?

H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Fri 9 Sep, 2011 03:07 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Obama could set the example and turn over all of his millions to the government,
I'm sure he and his family could get by on his presidential salary and severance pkg.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Fri 9 Sep, 2011 03:14 pm



Why would any sane American trust this empty suit to do anything to help anyone but himself?

Obama continues to piss off larger and larger segments of this countries population... to what end?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Fri 9 Sep, 2011 04:34 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Quote:
Obama requested that it be paid for by finding additional cuts in the upcoming negotiations. If you had paid attention to what he actually said, you might realize this.


I paid a lot of attention to what he said, and it was all a con job.


Everything's a con when you've already pre-decided that the other side is acting in bad faith.

Yaknow, you come across as such an asshole in pretty much every post. It's amazing - almost as if you're actively trying to be as much of a stereotype as possible.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  0  
Fri 9 Sep, 2011 05:09 pm
Karl Rove describes Obama speech, which is likely accurate.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/09/09/twelve-words-to-describe-obamas-jobs-speech/


Thursday night’s show by President Obama struck me as…

Presumptuous: He demanded – 17 times – that Congress immediately pass a bill no one has seen.

Tired: The speech contained little new, just mostly recycled ideas or extensions of current programs that haven’t worked.

Small: Its proposals, while expensive, offer little hope of really jump-starting the economy.

Mind-boggling: Mr. Obama wants to drains hundreds of billions from Social Security for another stimulus.

Slippery: It will all be paid for, the president said, but it’s up to a Congressional committee to figure out how.

Misleading: These were just GOP ideas. Really? Republicans have proposed another $450 billion stimulus bill, Mr. Obama?

Arrogant: He refused to consult in advance with anyone on the Hill, even refusing a meeting request from the House Speaker and Majority Leader.

Self-centered: The only job he’s really concerned about is his own. If he really wanted a bipartisan package, he would have worked with Republicans to come up with one.

Unnecessary: The president would have been better off traveling the country this week to lay out proposals, surrounded by people he could claim would might benefit.

Completely political: Before he spoke, Mr. Obama sent supporters an email titled “Before I head to the Capitol” that ended with “You should donate today.”

Hyper-partisan: This speech – especially its angry tone – was aimed at setting up the Republicans for blame next fall. Then he’ll say the economy would be better if the GOP has just done what I ordered them to do.
Misguided: Mr. Obama is betting his re-elect on a massive spending bill.

Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln enjoyed the show.



Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/09/09/twelve-words-to-describe-obamas-jobs-speech/#ixzz1XV1q47Jw
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 9 Sep, 2011 05:22 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Everything's a con when you've already pre-decided that the other side is acting in bad faith.
True enough, but that failing - by that I mean the assumption of bad faith on the other political side - is fairly widespread on these forums, and I doubt that you could argue that you are free of it either.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Yaknow, you come across as such an asshole in pretty much every post. It's amazing - almost as if you're actively trying to be as much of a stereotype as possible. Cycloptichorn


Perhaps the stereotype is as much in the lens through which you see things as it is in what Finn wrote.

Overall not much of a counterargument.

It is true that, now almost three years into the current administration, most of us have fairly well made up our minds about the actors in the current political drama. Moreover the debate about our economy and the complex, two dimensionsl problem of high public debt and a weak and stagnated recovery from a deep recession that we face today has also largely crystallized among us here. These issues are widely debated, not just here on A2K but everywhere else including among those who style themselves as experts on the economic issues involved.

In my view it comes down to which of the two components one believes is the more urgent of the two and has a more pervasive and lasting effects on the other component. Many self-styled Keynesians declare unemployment and recession as the driving problem, assuming the resulting increased debt will not severely limit future economic activity. Others, my self included, worry more about the lasting effects of high public debt (particularly with the several prominent sclerotic examples in Europe before us), and the likely adverse effects of increased dependency on the social and economic behavior of the population arising from the short term fixes being proposed (here too there are prominent European examples of these bad consequences prominently before us).

The sad aspect of all this is that both sides of the political spectrum have contributed to the causes of the current problem, but neither acknowledges his part in it. In the same bad spirit the political actors have failed to find any synthesis. Democrats preach class warfare and "tax the millionaires with private jets" (when they really mean anyone with an income over $200K) , until now without any expressed willingness to address the inexorable rise of forecast public debt due to entitlement costs, including Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security (indeed they still engage in the worst kind of political demagogery over this). Republicans, concerned more about the debt and aware that no feasible combination of tax increase and discretionary spending cuts will solve this aspect of the problem, are reluctant to go along with otherwise justifiable short term measures.

Beyond all that is the problem of our chronic and growing negative balance of trade. The only lasting way to solve this problem is to increase our labor productivity and efficiency. We can't do it with protectionism or refusing to join the growing body of trade treaties afoot in the world; and we can't do it by following the programs advocated by organized Labor Unions who have already destroyed most of our industrial base. They are working on our aircraft iundustry now (Boeing) and we need to stop them. Finally, we can't do it if we follow the lead of rabid environmentalists who want us to return to the bucolic world of 1830.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Fri 9 Sep, 2011 05:33 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Everything's a con when you've already pre-decided that the other side is acting in bad faith.
True enough, but that failing - by that I mean the assumption of bad faith on the other political side - is fairly widespread on these forums, and I doubt that you could argue that you are free of it either.


Yeah, but I have better examples than you do.

Regarding the rest of your post, it's almost as if you've forgotten that just a year ago, your party was actively running on a platform that accused the Dems of 'cutting Medicare' - and styled themselves as defenders of it to the voters. Hard to paint only the Dems as responsible for the problems with our entitlement programs. And you probably already realize that within 20 years, your side will be protecting the HC reform the same way that your British counterparts protect their system.

Additionally, what you call 'class warfare' doesn't exist. It's merely a projection of the inner feelings that motivate Republican voters onto those who disagree with them. Let me give you a good example: I often advocate policies which you and others refer to as 'class warfare.' But I don't do so out of any desire to have one single cent more for myself. I don't need any more money from the gov't or any help from anyone. I won't benefit personally from almost any of the plans that I believe would help the nation.

So, how am I - or other Dems - engaging in 'class warfare' when I argue that marginal taxes on the wealthy (everyone really) should go up? When I point out that the wealthy pay a far lower share of their income in taxes now than they have in 70 years? And that these things are greatly harming our nation in a wide variety of ways? I don't think so. It's just an attempt to invalidate the arguments of your opponents for which your traditional answers don't quite cut it.

Cycloptichorn
snood
 
  2  
Fri 9 Sep, 2011 06:02 pm
Cyclops said:

Quote:
So, how am I - or other Dems - engaging in 'class warfare' when I argue that marginal taxes on the wealthy (everyone really) should go up? When I point out that the wealthy pay a far lower share of their income in taxes now than they have in 70 years? And that these things are greatly harming our nation in a wide variety of ways? I don't think so. It's just an attempt to invalidate the arguments of your opponents for which your traditional answers don't quite cut it.


Very plainly and well put. And absolutely right. When it comes right down to it, I think the wealthy that resist the increase in taxes know that they are not acting in the greater interest of their nation, and-they-just-don't-care. Notwithstanding all the faux patriotic/ faux populist noises their bought and sold politicians make.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 9 Sep, 2011 07:10 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Regarding the rest of your post, it's almost as if you've forgotten that just a year ago, your party was actively running on a platform that accused the Dems of 'cutting Medicare' - and styled themselves as defenders of it to the voters. Hard to paint only the Dems as responsible for the problems with our entitlement programs. And you probably already realize that within 20 years, your side will be protecting the HC reform the same way that your British counterparts protect their system.
This is not at all related to "the rest of (my) post". Unlike you, I was trying to take a fairly objective view of the situatiuon.

With respect to your usual politicization of everything, it was my observation that Republican reactions to Obama's rather blythe elimination of medicare Advantage and his proposed caps on reimbursement rates were interesting mostly because they gave the lie to key elements of his rhetoric surrounding the wonderful new features of Obamacare and his earlier campaign promises not to affect existing insurance programs. They also concealed many of the new costs in Obamacare in the way the composite program was presented - this is an issue that has grown in extent during the past two years as states are figuring out just how great are the costs to them of the now expanded Medicaid program. Finally the elimination of Medicare Advantage represented to Republicans yet another element of elimination of individual choice or private sector participation in a program they also saw as involving far too much government bureaucratic control. You are again trivializing a more complex issue and falsely characterizing others through the lens of your own stereotypes.

With respect to the class warfare bit, one need listen only to the rhetoric of the President and his redistributionist preferences and that of other prominent Democrats and their media claques. It is quite unmistakeable. Your rather self-serving (and unverifiable) claims that you personally won't benefit from any of this hardly dent the barrage of rhetoric to which we are all subject. Many features of our tax code have changed over the years and most of the rate comparisons you have put forward ignore salient details of the tax code like the indexing of most deductions to adjusted gross income and the AMT which effectively raise the comparable marginal rates for many taxpayers far higher than they were a couple of decades ago. Your post WWII example is inapplicable to the present time for reasons I have previously explained to you.

I believe the basic Republican preference is to focus more on raising the level of economic activity for everyone and less on the Leninist "harvesting of the bourgeois" BS that you put out here. History strongly suggests that the latter doesn't yield any lasting gains for anyone, indeed it increases dependency and reduces real economic growth.
0 Replies
 
 

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