nimh
 
  1  
Thu 31 May, 2007 12:56 pm
In TNR, Jonathan Cohn has followed up on his initial Plank post with a more in-depth analysis of Obama's health care plan.

It's very nuanced; it doesnt have any of the scathing tone in some of Ezra Klein's piece. Plus, it explains things in some detail, but in a way that even I can understand it.

For those who are just curious about the guy's conclusion, politically speaking:

Quote:
Does this mean Obama's plan is fatally flawed? Of course not. It still would represent serious progress. [..] But, for those of us who will vote in the Democratic primaries, again, the question is how Obama's plan compares to other approaches. [..] As far as I'm concerned, Obama definitely showed us something good on Tuesday. It's just not as good as what I've seen elsewhere.


But better read the full thing. Since I'm not sure its freely accessible, I'll just be a pirate and paste it in here in full.

Quote:
Barack Obama's cautious health care plan.
Wading Pool


by Jonathan Cohn
Only at TNR Online | Post date 05.31.07

In Iowa on Tuesday, when Senator Barack Obama gave a speech about health care, he started by introducing Amy Chicos and telling her story. It seems that Amy and her husband, Lane, run a small business providing broadband Internet access to their small town. Twenty years ago, Lane was diagnosed with cancer--and ended up losing a lung, a leg bone, and part of his hip. He's in complete remission now, which is the good news. But, as a cancer survivor, he has sky high insurance premiums. The Chicos now pay 40 percent of their income for health insurance. They struggle to pay for the basic necessities, like food and gas. They have no savings, either--just huge credit card debt and the prospect of bankruptcy looming in the near future.

After recounting this saga, Obama suggested that "This is not who we are. And this is not who we have to be." He then proceeded to unveil a plan designed to help the Chicos and the millions of other Americans who face financial hardship because of medical bills--by reducing the cost of medicine and by helping people to pay for insurance.

Exactly how many people would he help and by how much? Is his proposed scheme the best possible way to achieve that? Those are two important questions, but before we get to them let's step back for a moment.

In the context of a primary campaign, with policy proposals flying left and right, it's easy to forget the simple message all voters should take away--particularly if Barack Obama really does end up as the Democratic nominee for president. That message is this: He thinks it's wrong that people have to go through what the Chicos have gone through. He thinks society has an obligation to fix that problem. And he's got a plan that would help accomplish this.

These are all good things--and, at least relative to whatever Republican he runs against in 2008, they more than recommend him for the job.


Still, it is not November 2008 yet. It's May 2007--at the early stages of the presidential primaries, when we have the luxury of deciding between multiple candidates. And, while proposals like these are not the sole basis on which to make decisions about who we would like our parties to nominate, they offer us a lot of valuable insights.

Indeed, when evaluating a health care proposal like the one Obama put out on Tuesday, the plan's details matter most for what they tell us about the candidate who settled upon them. All policy decisions require making trade-offs. So what trade-offs has the candidate made? What does that reveal about his priorities and political instincts? What can we discern about his management style? And does the package as a whole suggest this is somebody who knows how to sell an idea? Here is where the verdict on Obama's plan--or, more accurately, Obama--is mixed.

The best thing you can say about his plan is that he places a great deal of emphasis on actually making medical care less expensive by eliminating waste. His initiatives for doing this--like stressing disease management, investing in information technology, and creating an independent institute to evaluate the effectiveness of treatments--are detailed and well-thought out. This reflects, among other things, the fact that Obama has surrounded himself with some of the leading experts in this field, like economist David Cutler and physician David Blumenthal.

But what about his approach to expanding coverage? From afar, it looks a lot like the plan already put forth by former Senator John Edwards. Rather than provide all Americans with basic insurance from the government--the way a single-payer system would--Obama has opted to leave current health insurance arrangements in place.

His plan assumes that most people who already have private health insurance will hold onto that coverage. As for the people who don't have insurance--or might lose it sometime in the future--Obama would offer several alternatives. Some people would qualify for coverage under expanded safety-net programs like Medicaid. Others would have the opportunity to buy coverage through a new purchasing pool that Obama would create, choosing between closely regulated private insurance plans or a new, government-run program that Obama would offer as an alternative. (Small businesses could also buy into the government-run plan.) Along the way, Obama would throw in subsidies--a lot of them, as a matter of fact--to help people who struggle with medical bills pay for their insurance.

This is all fine and good. There's an undeniable political logic to increasing coverage this way: You're telling people who don't have insurance they'll finally have a realistic chance to get it. And you're telling people who do have health insurance they don't have to feel threatened in any way--they'll get to keep what they already have, only it will be cheaper (because of all the money Obama would save through new efficiencies).

But there are some differences between what Obama and Edwards have proposed. And by far the biggest, most important one is the fact that Edwards has a "mandate" in his plan: He would require every single American to get insurance. That means his plan is truly "universal." Obama says he, too, is committed to covering everybody by 2012. And he has a mandate that all children get insurance. But there is no similar mandate on adults. There is, in other words, no requirement that every adult American have health insurance. And that means his plan is not universal--at least not in the same sense that Edwards and his advisers mean it.


Why does this matter? Obama's advisers, for what it's worth, think it doesn't. Not much, anyway. They believe that their initiative will help cover most Americans within two or three years. After that, they say, they can come back to the problem and, following through on Obama's promise, cover that relatively small portion of the population that still doesn't have coverage. If that requires passing some sort of mandate then, so be it. They're prepared to do so.

I think they mean it. But can they do it? The best studies out there--by Urban Institute researchers, the RAND Corporation, and MIT economist Jonathan Gruber--suggest that, without a mandate, improving affordability will cover roughly one-third of the people who don't have coverage. Mandating that kids (but not adults) have coverage bumps that up to about a half. Obama's advisers think that, by really loading up on the subsidies--and making enrollment a lot easier by, for example, having an automatic enrollment with voluntary opt-out at your place of work--they can goose that up to two-thirds. But that's getting optimistic--and, even then, you still have around 15 million people who are uninsured.

In other words, the "mop-up" job at the end would quite likely be more than a mop-up. It'd be a substantial task, maybe even a huge one. That's why most health care experts believe you can't get that close to universal coverage without some sort of a mandate.

So if it's going to take a mandate to really cover everybody, why not include it up front?

Obama's logic here starts with a policy concern--namely, fearing that a mandate will create more problems than it solves. Obama doesn't want to make people buy insurance until, first, he's sure he's made it affordable. Otherwise, he fears, some working-class people would be forced to buy insurance when, in fact, doing so would impose real financial hardship. Lest this fear seem purely hypothetical, Obama's advisers say this is pretty much what has happened in Massachusetts--where, having passed a mandate, the state has struggled to deliver a good insurance product at rates everybody can afford.

This is a real problem, for sure. But it's also an eminently solvable one. (And, in fact, some would argue Massachusetts is solving it.) You can browbeat the insurers into providing cheaper private coverage; you can spend more money on subsidies; or you beef up public programs as alternatives. In a real pinch, you can even loosen the mandates temporarily, to buy a little extra time. Whatever--the point is that, once the mandate is in place, you've pretty much locked yourself in to providing insurance to everybody, one way or another. And that's precisely what should happen.

Obama's other concern seems to be political--and I don't mean that in a nasty, these-guys-are-so-craven sort of way. Like so many in the Democratic Party, Obama's advisers remember all too well how excessive ambition killed the Clinton plan politically. They don't want to make that mistake again. They fear a mandate sounds scarier to the public, particularly middle-class voters. If, on the other hand, they create the structures for expanding coverage, people will get accustomed to having those mechanisms around--and requiring that everybody get insurance wouldn't be such a big deal.

Like all political arguments, this one comes down to a judgment call. But I, for one, don't see it the way Obama does. Everybody talks about mandates now. Remember, the plan that Mitt Romney passed in Massachusetts and the one Arnold Schwarzenegger has proposed for California both involve mandates. The idea just isn't that controversial anymore.

What's more, there's a good reason you have conservatives, as well liberals, touting this: It's a way of stressing individual responsibility. To people with insurance, the ones you really have to worry about losing in a health-care fight, it signals that you're requiring everybody to start paying their fair share. It's also a way to buy some love from the employer community, for whom the words "individual mandate" seem (mysteriously, in my view) to wash away fears of government involvement in health care.


Does this mean Obama's plan is fatally flawed? Of course not. It still would represent serious progress. (That said, if you want to get into more of the details, Ezra Klein has put his finger on some other valid concerns here.) But, for those of us who will vote in the Democratic primaries, again, the question is how Obama's plan compares to other approaches--and what it tells us about Obama's abilities, as both a candidate and lawmaker-in-chief, relative to his rivals.

With that in mind, let me make one last point via a summertime analogy: Going into your swimming pool on a day when the water might be a little chilly. You can wade in a step at a time, or you can jump into the deep end. The advantage of the former approach is that you minimize the temperature shock at any one time. The downside is that it takes a lot longer to get in, and there's always the chance that, for one reason or another, you won't go all the way. You might chicken out at your waist; or something else might capture your attention and you might forget about swimming altogether.

By contrast, jumping in the deep end involves a little more risk: You might feel really cold for a few seconds. But you'll probably get comfortable pretty quickly. And, once you've made the decision to jump, you're guaranteed to be in the water. You can't get un-wet.

When it comes to achieving universal health care, Obama wants to wade into it: He doesn't want to move everybody into universal coverage until the arrangements are all in place and people feel totally comfortable with it. Yes, he's promising to cover everybody. But the promise is only as good as his word, sincere though it may be.

Those who prefer mandates--a category that, again, happens to include rival John Edwards--prefer to jump in the deep end. They want to seize this opportunity and get the mandate on the books from day one (even if, as practical matter, it's phased in so it becomes fully effective only after a few years). In so doing, they are offering what is, in effect, a stronger guarantee.

Reasonable people can disagree on which approach makes the most sense. And, needless to say, this shouldn't be the only criterion on which to judge these two candidates--or any of their rivals. (We're still waiting to see what Hillary Clinton has to say about coverage and access; her proposal to reduce costs, like Obama's, was impressive.) Still, it'd be foolish to ignore this altogether. As far as I'm concerned, Obama definitely showed us something good on Tuesday. It's just not as good as what I've seen elsewhere.

Jonathan Cohn is a senior editor at The New Republic, a senior fellow at Demos, and the author of Sick: The untold story of America's health care crisis--and the people who pay the price (HarperCollins).
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Thu 31 May, 2007 01:08 pm
In the New York Times, Atul Gawande today has a column about Obama's plans too. I'd never heard of Gawande but she introduces herself:

Quote:
As a surgeon, I've worked with the veterans' health system, Medicare, Medicaid and private insurance companies. I've seen health care in Canada, Britain, Switzerland and the Netherlands. And I was in the Clinton administration when our plan for universal coverage failed.

Her take on Obama's plan does not, like Ezra's and Kohn's, focus on outlining how it differs or agrees exactly from Edwards' or Schwarzenegger's or who else's plan, and evaluating the pros and cons of each difference.

Instead, she focuses rather on there at least being a common, hopeful, thread through all of them - and on the whole question in the end coming down to who is best qualified to get the solution through. This is a column the Obama camp will be glad with. Here's the relevant bit:

Quote:
The Obama Health Plan

(not online at the Times site, but here's a copy
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Thu 31 May, 2007 01:10 pm
Gawande is a he, and one of my favorite medical writers. Well, THE favorite, though I like Jerome Groopman, too. Gawande had a pair of Op-Eds about why health care reform is so important, I'm REALLY happy to see him weigh in here.

Thanks for pointing to that (I have the NYT but haven't had time to get to it today) and the long TNR article.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Thu 31 May, 2007 01:12 pm
Note: Gawande is a guy - I saw his photo along with the other New Yorker med writer, Jerrold Groopman (not sure about the Jerrold part being correct) in an article somewhere about the development of medical writing for the public.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Thu 31 May, 2007 01:14 pm
ehBeth wrote:
People don't necessarily get sick more often if they're covered for longer periods

I think we have a mismatch in what we mean by "get sick more often". You seem to mean that the numbers of days someone is sick each year doesn't increase when you're insured for twenty years instead of ten. I agree. What I meant by "get sick more often" is a trivial thing: If you're sick for ten days each year, and you're health-insured for twenty years instead of ten, you'll be sick for 200 days instead of 100 while you're insured.

This is contrasted to: If you're life-insured for 20 years and you die, you'll have died once; if you're life insured for 10 years and you die, you'll have died once.

ehBeth wrote:
(deleting the whole rest of my post because I found this chart (life) and the health premium one as well.

Interesting. Life insurance premia (premiums?) do seem to rise faster than inversely proportional to life expectancy. I wonder why.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Thu 31 May, 2007 01:14 pm
Very Happy
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Thu 31 May, 2007 01:17 pm
:-D
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Thu 31 May, 2007 01:18 pm
nimh wrote:
For those who are just curious about the guy's conclusion, politically speaking:

Quote:
Does this mean Obama's plan is fatally flawed? Of course not. It still would represent serious progress. [..] But, for those of us who will vote in the Democratic primaries, again, the question is how Obama's plan compares to other approaches. [..] As far as I'm concerned, Obama definitely showed us something good on Tuesday. It's just not as good as what I've seen elsewhere.

Looking into my crystal ball, I foresee a Paul Krugman column within the next week. And I foresee that his judgment will be harsher.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Thu 31 May, 2007 02:04 pm
Finally (but by now my head hurts), there's follow ups on the Prospect's blog, Tapped.

Ezra Klein came back to notice that just last year, Obama was still saying: "Health care should be like auto insurance - mandatory for all Americans. A larger pool of subscribers would drive down health care costs."

He's obviously backed down from that.

Why? On the right (at the Politico, where that quote was dug up), they say, well, Obama must have been warned by his health policy wonks to back down from the mandate idea. Klein says that's unlikely, since there's "nary a health policy expert who doesn't believe you need a mandate of some kind" nowadays. It's the opposite, he says: Obama must have backed down from it out of electoral fear ("mandates make some folks uncomfortable").

That's a pity, argues Klein:

Quote:
Obama's staff is firm in upholding that they'd happily revisit the mandate issue later on, and that Obama's commitment is to full coverage by the end of his first term. I'm skeptical, though, that after passing a universal health care bill that fails to deliver on its promises, Obama will have the capital to come back to Congress in three years and ask for a purely punitive measure to enhance coverage.

What's he mean with "punitive measure"? I am guessing (but Thomas, help me out here), that what he's saying is, elliptically, roughly, the following.

If you start out with an individual mandate, everyone will have to get health insurance, straight from the start - and the responsibility of the rest of the plan then is just to make it affordable, so as to avoid a backlash. But if you start off with offering expanded health insurance but leaving it voluntary for people to join it or not, then your plan is also left still with having to actually try to persuade people to join it.

Now if you make it affordable enough, you can probably persuade the people with health complaints or a risk of health complains to join in. Also the poor people who know that, should anything happen to them, they're up **** creek. But you wont get the people who feel they dont need insurance. The overconfidently young and healthy, and those rich enough to be willing to take the risk of paying up by themselves should anything happen after all, rather than taking part in what basically is a redistributive system.

Yet it's these people that you need to take part as well, because they are the ones who'd lessen the overall costs of the scheme, and would make it financially feasible at all, in the long run. But to haul in those people after all by making participation mandatary, when all those who would have voluntarily signed up are already in, will indeed look a lot like a "punitive measure" - a measure thats left purely to force in the unwilling. That would be something quite difficult to push through for a President at the lame-duck end of his term.

Hence the conclusion that, if you're going to bite the bullet of mandates, you'd better do it straight away, when the griping of those who wouldnt voluntarily join it is not some stand-alone thing going on, but comes right along with a lot of grateful people who are very happy to be joining it.

(more in next post)
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Thu 31 May, 2007 02:13 pm
Still on Tapped, Mark Schmitt takes issue with Klein's point about Obama fearfully moving to the uncontroversial centre right from the bat. He points out that, actually, when it comes to the issue of mandates, what Obama might be fearing is criticism from the left:

Quote:
Traditionally [..], the objection to mandates has come from the left, and it has come in primaries. Al Gore objected to Bill Bradley's children-only mandate in 2000, from the left. My colleagues at the New America Foundation [..] have been criticized mostly from people on the left who complained [..] that [..] unless all the other pieces are in place (community rating, guaranteed issue, and adequate subsidies) the individual mandate alone is a trap.

What's he talking about? I wouldnt have understood from this bit, but I think it's what Jonathan Kohn explained more clearly in the article I posted above:

Quote:
Obama's [..] policy concern [is that he] doesn't want to make people buy insurance until, first, he's sure he's made it affordable. Otherwise, he fears, some working-class people would be forced to buy insurance when, in fact, doing so would impose real financial hardship.

Note, though, that Kohn also comments that this is an "eminently solvable" problem, which "some would argue Massachusetts is solving" already. And in his follow-up reply to Schmitt, Klein says the same thing: this isnt really seen as a concern anymore.

Schmitt, says Klein, "is largely talking about the [2000 presidential] Bradley campaign here -- a campaign he was deeply involved in"; but things have changed since Bradley got mauled by Al Gore:

Quote:
it's probably more illuminative to look at how the Left is reacting now, rather than how it reacted in 2000. Indeed, Edwards has received little but praise for his plan -- which includes a mandate and has been offered during the primary. Wyden's been widely lauded for his and it includes a mandate. So whatever the Left's "traditional" take on mandates may have been, it's hard to find evidence that they remain seriously controversial. [..]

Something that hadnt sunk in with me yet that Klein points out as well, indirectly, is that Edwards' plan actually is the middle ground.

After all, as Gawande pointed out, neither of their plans opts for a "single-payer" model. What is not on the agenda is the Canadian system, or the UK's model of a National Health Service. That would be the truly leftwing solution: cut out the middle man (private insurance companies) altogether.

The choice, in abstracto, would apparently be a "government mandate", alternatively an "individual mandate" - or no mandate. The country is not ready, Klein says, for a government mandate system, so the individual mandate should be reached for instead, rather than copping out altogether:

Quote:
[E]very one of the major candidates, Obama included, has pledged themselves to a universal plan. The ground has changed. But even as that's happened, it's not changed enough that you're seeing viable proposals using a government mandate. So if you want universality -- and the base certainly does -- you're sort of stuck with the individual mandate.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Thu 31 May, 2007 02:16 pm
Hope all of that made sense .. I'm a complete newbie to this subject, never really understood how the Dutch system worked in detail either.

Gawande - guy - check.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Thu 31 May, 2007 02:27 pm
Thomas wrote:
ehBeth wrote:
People don't necessarily get sick more often if they're covered for longer periods


I think we have a mismatch in what we mean by "get sick more often". You seem to mean that the numbers of days someone is sick each year doesn't increase when you're insured for twenty years instead of ten. I agree. What I meant by "get sick more often" is a trivial thing: If you're sick for ten days each year, and you're health-insured for twenty years instead of ten, you'll be sick for 200 days instead of 100 while you're insured.


An actuary would disagree with you and say it's not such a trivial matter.

To begin with, people with health insurance tend to have (overall - in actuary-land) fewer significant illnesses. They can get examinations/earlier treatment - there's a whole group of illnesses that can be de-escalated in that way. The savings there are part of the money-making split for insurers. It's sort of odd. Insured people are better insurance risks simply because they're insured. They will have, over the life of the policy, have fewer sick days than an otherwise comparable uninsured group over the same period of time.

<picture actuaries dancing and clapping their hands>


check out pps 5 and 6 of this for health status related to insurance coverage (compare insured v uninsured - being in receipt of Medicaid is clearly very bad news in more ways than one)
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Thu 31 May, 2007 02:30 pm
Thomas wrote:
Interesting. Life insurance premia (premiums?) do seem to rise faster than inversely proportional to life expectancy. I wonder why.


Premiums.

and I know this will sound strange - but the older you are, the more likely you are to die - that's why buying life insurance late makes insurance companies happy - more money over the life of the policy (even if it's a LOT shorter period of premium payments)
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Thu 31 May, 2007 02:42 pm
ehBeth wrote:
To begin with, people with health insurance tend to have (overall - in actuary-land) fewer significant illnesses.

I have no problem with that. My last post was only supposed to clarify what I mean by "more illnesses". I didn't mean to describe how insurance coverage impacts the rate of illnesses.

ehBeth wrote:
and I know this will sound strange - but the older you are, the more likely you are to die - that's why buying life insurance late makes insurance companies happy - more money over the life of the policy (even if it's a LOT shorter period of premium payments)

Apparently so. I still don't understand the "that's why" in your sentence, but maybe that's a puzzle for another day.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Fri 1 Jun, 2007 03:19 am
Hmmmm. I wonder who else is practicing a sport like this. It sounds kind of familiar to me -- especially the slogan at the end ....
    June 1, 2007 [b]One Place Where Obama Goes Elbow to Elbow [/b] By JODI KANTOR Last Christmas, Senator Barack Obama flew to Hawaii to contemplate a presidential bid in the peace of his childhood home. But there, on a humid playground near Waikiki Beach, he found himself being roughed up by some of his best friends. It was the third and final game of the group's annual three-on-three basketball showdown, and with the score nearly tied, things were getting dirty. "Every time he tried to score, I fouled him," Martin Nesbitt recalled. "I grabbed him, I'd hit his arm, I'd hold him." Michael Ramos, another participant, explained, "No blood, no foul."

Full article
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Fri 1 Jun, 2007 06:22 am
:-D

Quote:
"If he would hit a couple buckets, he would let you know about it," said Alexi Giannoulias, who played in the late 1990s with Mr. Obama at the East Bank Club, a luxurious spot in downtown Chicago.

He is gentleman enough to call fouls on himself: Steven Donziger, a law school classmate, has heard Mr. Obama mutter, "my bad," tossing the other team the ball. But "he knew how to get in the mix when he needed to," Mr. Giannoulias said. "There are always elbows, there's always a little bit of jersey tucking and tugging," he said, continuing, "Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to win."

...

Mr. Obama cannot match their technical prowess, say those who played regularly with him. But he is fiercely competitive, and makes up for his deficits with collaboration and strategy. "He's very good at finding a way to win when he's playing with people who are supposedly stronger," Mr. Nesbitt said.


I would never elect a president because he plays pick-up basketball exactly like I do, but that was an awfully fun article to read.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Fri 1 Jun, 2007 09:52 pm
I know, right? I mean, it sounds really corny, but I just really like the guy.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Fri 1 Jun, 2007 10:04 pm
snood wrote:
I know, right? I mean, it sounds really corny, but I just really like the guy.


No ****?

He's black (sort of); you're black (or so your avatar would have us believe) and you like the guy.

Hey, I like the guy too.

I won't ever vote for him for president, but maybe that's because I can't relate to his white Kansanian side.

I'm sympathetic to your oft presented argument that it would be great for African-Americans if an African-American were elected president, but is this the guy?

He is as much white as he is black.

That's cool to me, but it's hard to see how it specifically inspires blacks.

Maybe it's his Baptist rhetorical cadence.

We know you wet your pants for the guy Snood, now tell us why he should be the leader of the US and the Free World.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Fri 1 Jun, 2007 10:21 pm
bm

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Fri 1 Jun, 2007 10:49 pm
I've viscerally liked some politicians and abhorred others. I've come to see the major flaws in some I've really liked, and gotten to see good points about those I've abhorred. Ok, if not abhorred, reacted badly against at some point.

I'm still working all that out, and I'd better hurry up, since it works out that way in regular life too.

My present (you may call it absurd, and I'll agree) scenario, is that we US folks finally extricate ourselves from Iraq, budgetted for zillions in fix up, not that I'm arguing, with all the giant base building somehow lost and set against us, and then send all the tired weary guys to Afghanistan to try the game again.

I don't want to vote for anyone calmly talking about any possibility of nuking iran or continue this pathology in afghanistan, where we went in to support the mujahadeen (sp) to thwart Russia. What players, what players!

I seem to remember Obama quietly talking re nukes and Iran. Perhaps that was a phantasm.

Who, then, is left for me? You understand, or you may not, that I consider myself middle on the right-left-libertarian-authoritarian axes, relative to the larger world.....
0 Replies
 
 

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