Obama '08?

I've no doubt that during the Vietnam War, as with every war, atrocities were committed, and by American forces.

I'm not sure what constitutes an "atrocity" in war. Isn't shooting someone in the face or slitting his throat with a knife, or blowing his legs off with a mine pretty atrocious?

A sniper picks off three or four enemy soldiers walking down a street...not atrocious? Soldiers shoot three or four enemy soldiers who have surrendered...atrocious?

A drone takes out a high value enemy target driving through the Yemeni desert in a bus...his family is with him and they are vaporized as well. The "damage" is collateral, but not atrocious.

A squad of marines who have just seen their buddies blown to bits, follow a furtive figure into a village and shoot several women who come up in their faces screaming and spitting...that must be an atrocity...right?

It's all atrocious, but here again we have constructed "rules" that tell us what murder and mayhem is acceptable and what is not, and then we send a bunch of kids into the most intensely fucked up situations anyone will ever experience and we expect them to assiduously follow these rules.

What is truly amazing is that there were less than 400 incidents during the Vietnam War that could be classified as "atrocities."

Kerry of Vietnam is a despicable narcissist. If even half of what the so-called Swiftboaters alleged is true, his exploits in Vietnam were exaggerated puffery, and if they are all true ( closer to the mark), he is a vile opportunist.

But wait, he is a vile opportunist...witness his speech before congress upon returning from Vietnam.

This wasn't someone blowing off the lid of a dark American secret, this was someone who felt which way the wind of the time was blowing and made his move to let it carry him aloft.

It is entirely in keeping with the contempt shown for him by his fellow Swift Boaters, that he condemned his fellow warriors with as broad a brush as he needed to make a name for himself.

Okie your nearly perfect question can be rephrased:

If Kerry of Vietnam witnessed all of these atrocities, and he was such a White Knight, why didn't he report them when reporting might actually have made a difference?

Oh yes, he didn't want to rat out certain of his brothers in arms.

So instead he waited until he was back home and then he ratted out all of his brothers in arms, in a calculated move to launch his political career.

There is a reason so many of the men who served with him in Vietnam find him contemptible.

I didn't serve, as John Kerry did, and his service was anything but dishonorable. In fact it is the one redeeming aspect of his utterly self-centered life.

But if everyone who serves doesn't get a free pass when it comes to " atrocities," why should any of them get one for opportunistic hucksterism?

Well, by golly gee, imagine having atrocities in a war. Hot damn, martha. Next thing ya know they'll be killing each other. I think paragoose should form a government agency to get to the bottom of this.

Gosh golly gee. A government agency did get to the bottom of it and it found that Kerry's testimony was pretty accurate. Atrocities did occur.

Yes, it was a war. Unfortunately things that shouldn't happen often do during war. Prisoners are shot. Civilians are purposely targeted. Women are raped by soldiers. It happens. That doesn't make Kerry a liar however. It only shows that what he said was true because those things happen.

The issue is not whether Kerry was lying or not, it is about why he decided to tell his 'truth' and when.

Typical lame excuses, typical lame diversions, typically scummy Finn d'Hypocrite bullshit.

There were not just 400 atrocities. The whole venture was an atrocity. What started out as terrorism escalated in a war of aggression, the ultimate war crime. From that untold numbers of atrocities/war crimes unfolded.

The whole "war" was against the civilian population of the south to try to terrorize them into supporting the US puppet governments.

Did I mention how depraved you are, Finn, trying to explain away war crimes with you silly little stories?

[/quote]All of what you say is right on target, Finn. One of the things that is so important to note about his testimony to Congress is not the idea that isolated atrocities might have ocurred, but Kerry portrayed the idea that they were commonplace and universal to all military units and areas in Vietnam. This is the part of his testimony that I find very misleading and highly offensive: ".......150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command....." This I know to be a despicable lie, not only from my own experience there, but by the fact that I know enough of what some other veterans also experienced there. As an infantryman in the field for a year, I did not witness even one atrocity or war crime, nor did I witness anything close to what Kerry described about rape, cutting off ears, cutting off heads, taping wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turning up the power, cutting off limbs, blowing up bodies, randomly shooting at civilians, razing villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks" I therefore am compelled to conclude that Kerry was a despicable liar and a fraud, not only him but many of those at the Winter Soldier event.

okie, Many of us proved you are a despicable liar and a fraud. Anyone with your reputation calling the kettle black is a bit laughable.

This is a fine example of your thickheaded nature, Okie. But it goes way beyond that to something that's hardly new. You can lie with the best of them. But lying as a way to make excuses for war crimes is a particularly heinous act.

Cuddle up to Finn. You two make not at all strange bed partners.

I don't know if my memory is accurate, so JTT, I need to ask you - aren't you the one that argued on a thread that Bush was actually the one that brought the towers down on 9/11?

After seeing Mr Obama perform in Dublin and in London I can't see any of the predicted GOP candidates laying a glove on him next year unless some disaster occurs. That Mike Huckabee was in the running to go against him was a joke.

And that is precisely what the US military found to be TRUE okie. That you want to continue to deny it doesn't make any difference. The facts are that over 150 military personnel testified about those acts. The facts are all in documents you don't want to believe exist.

That has to be your silliest tangent of all time, Okie.

No, your memory is faulty as are your "thinking" processes. It was actually Barbara Bush that organized and carried out the whole deal.

I may have gotten you mixed up with another poster. The point is that you, JTT, have posted some of the dumbest stuff of anyone here, and you will believe anything if it fits your template of hating America, George, Bush, conservatism, etc.

Day to day basis with full awareness of officers at all levels of command? They must have been in a different country than I was, JTT. In summary, it is total and absolute baloney. I cannot speak for what was going on in all units there, but I can speak as any eyewitness of the units I served with, and its baloney, JTT. I will take just one of Kerry's references to atrocities, that of rape. The closest I knew of anything relative to that was watching a couple GI's from my unit go over the hill or mound for a few minutes with a prostitute from a local village, a little bit poorer, and probably a little more worried about what they might have contracted. I would call that very poor judgement, but not rape, JTT. In my opinion the platoon leader or company commander should have called a halt to that sort of activity, but they did not, not in that case at least. My question at the time was what kinds of questions were those guys asked about our units operations and what did they say if they said anything? But I was a lowly private or maybe Spec 4 by then, so it was not my call to make. I have said before that there was much pot smoking going on over there too, and considering that now, I wonder if that is where alot of those fantastic atrocities and stories of events originated with losers like Kerry?

Okie..
It doesn't say everyone did it. It said some did it and officers were often aware. Your platoon wasn't the only one in Vietnam. Your company wasn't the only one in Vietnam.

The documents show that is the case. It was not a few isolated incidents. There were over 800 incidents reported.

At this point you are arguing the meaning of the word "is".

okie, Your personal observations are based on what you think you saw and experienced in Vietnam. There are plenty of recorded history by vets that say otherwise. Your myopia about history is common knowledge on a2k, and your opinions worthless.

There are many recorded history of US atrocities in Vietnam. Have you ever heard of agent orange? That was a holocaust perpetrated by the US on the Vietnamese people.

Here's some recorded history on YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwzfWRGnYbQ

He said they were not isolated incidents, and that it happened on a day to day basis , not with some oficers aware, but all levels of command knew of it. I don't know if you can read with comprehension or you are simply going to play defense lawyer again tnd throw out common sense, but that to me implies that atrocities were widespread throughout Vietnam in virtually all units and areas. True but at least I have actual facts that I witnessed or did not witness, which is more than Kerry had.

And how many of those incidents have actually been verified for sure? From a link I posted a few days ago, maybe one and even that one is not for sure. Sure, we all know about My Lai, but you cannot indict the entire military based upon that.

Now you are just acting like an idiot okie..
Over 320 of the incidents were confirmed.
Over 500 more were reported but not investigated because the perpetrators had left the military or investigators were unable to confirm.
All levels of command knew about them because command dealt with them in different ways. In some cases command was told to investigate. In other cases command prosecuted.

Claiming there was "maybe one" shows you are incapable of assimilating facts that go against your preconceived notions. Military documents show that there were a hell of a lot more than one.

I do not claim to speak for other vets. They will have to deal with what they think and say. All I know is what I know, and it is from personal observation. I can tell you this, I have met many Vietnam wannabes or guys that could tell some pretty questionable stories. Such is not that uncommon for any war. Look it up, ci. Do a search on Phony Winter Soldier syndrome.

By the way, it is your privilege to consider my opinions worthless, but as of today your opinions are less than worthless in my opinion. You are all bluster and no substance. You can spout insults with the best of insulters, but you have little or nothing of substance to offer any subject. I haven't seen any lately at least.

I wish both you guys would relax a bit - you're both nice guys with interesting opinions to offer on a variety of subjects.

Cycloptichorn