plainoldme
 
  1  
Sat 21 May, 2011 12:46 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Oh, I know that's what you are trying to do. But you're so bad at it, the effort fails completely. Try putting together a metaphor that more accurately models the situation if you want to get your point across.


He can't because he understands neither the situation nor the metaphor.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Sun 22 May, 2011 04:12 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
Quote:
You somehow have this mindset that what everybody earns goes into one giant pie that is collectively owned by everyone, to be cut up into slices not according to who made the pie, contributed to the pie, or who owns the house where the pie was made, but by the number of people occupying the kitchen.
Interesting metaphor, Okie. Isn't this exactly how the US nation was founded? Wasn't this huge pie just cut up and handed out to folks who had not had any hand in making the pie. Wasn't this huge pie simply stolen rather than shared?
ou are making one huge mistake in your conclusion, which is assuming the pie was somehow magically mixed from the ingredients and baked, without anyone figuring out how to do it and then actually doing it. For example, a prairie unplowed and unplanted produces no wheat, a forest unharvested and unmilled produces no wood or lumber, nor does a mountain of rock provide any structures or dwellings made of rock, without someone cleaving the rock and transporting it to the construction site. An iron ore deposit does not produce any steel and a a bolt of lightning produces no power, but inventors and discoverers like Thomas Edison and Andrew Carnegie, they helped create the pie by discovering components of the pie and then building the tools to put it together and to bake it.
JTT
 
  1  
Sun 22 May, 2011 05:04 pm
@okie,
And to enable these inventors and the millions of other newcomers, the US government instituted a program of genocide upon Native Americans.

1890, nearly 300 men, women and children were slaughtered at Wounded Knee. Some 20 Medals of Dishonor were awarded to the brave soldiers who gunned down the "enemy".

The greed and the butchery didn't stop at the borders of this rich land, it was carried and visited upon countless innocents the world over.

After the Native Americans had been practically wiped off the face of the Earth, attention was turned to the Philippines and other Latin American countries where the rape and pillage continued unabated for the next century.

Renaldo Dubois
 
  -1  
Sun 22 May, 2011 05:08 pm
@JTT,
Oh my God, please stop, you're scaring the children.
JTT
 
  3  
Sun 22 May, 2011 05:23 pm
@Renaldo Dubois,
No, just the child like, Renaldo.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  2  
Sun 22 May, 2011 06:55 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

And to enable these inventors and the millions of other newcomers, the US government instituted a program of genocide upon Native Americans./quote]
Quote:
The greed and the butchery didn't stop at the borders of this rich land, it was carried and visited upon countless innocents the world over.

After the Native Americans had been practically wiped off the face of the Earth, attention was turned to the Philippines and other Latin American countries where the rape and pillage continued unabated for the next century.
It would be nice but probably too much to expect you to ever gain a more balanced perspective of reality instead of your template of liberal thought, JTT. For example, there has been genocide inflicted upon other human beings since the dawn of man. If you ever studied archeology, you would know there is evidence of terrible things done by Native Americans upon other Native Americans, including evidence of cannabalism. It did not suddenly start when Europeans arrived on these shores.

Regarding the Philippines, unless the United States had driven the Japanese out of that region, there would have been even more atrocities than had already taken place. I personally know of one Philippine man that served with the U.S. military during the World War, and was so grateful to this country for what we did for his country, that he brought his entire family here after the war, to enjoy the freedoms that are offered here. Because of his service, he and family were given automatic citizenship here.

I am not denying the atrocities and wrongs that ocurred, but I am simply trying to point out that you need to look at history more objectively and not so one sided. I have visited the Sand Creek Massacre Site in Eastern Colorado, and I would agree what happened there was a particularly egregious event. I would advise you however that if you would ever take the time to travel some of the southwest, including the Navajo and Hopi reservations, you could in fact find and meet some of the most patriotic Americans in this entire country. Learn about the Navajo Code Talkers, etc., a special group of Navajos that served in World War II. In other words, broaden your horizon of thought and break out of your world of liberal prejudice that you must have gained somewhere, I suspect from some liberal professor or university.
JTT
 
  1  
Sun 22 May, 2011 07:03 pm
@okie,
Quote:
Regarding the Philippines, unless the United States had driven the Japanese out of that region, there would have been even more atrocities than had already taken place.


Okie, Okie, Okie.

Quote:

American Soldiers in the Philippines Write Home about the War

During the U.S. war in the Philippines between 1899 and 1904 (which grew out of the Spanish-American War that had erupted in 1898), ordinary American soldiers shared the nationalist zeal of their commanders and pursued the Filipino “enemy” with brutality and sometimes outright lawlessness. Racism, which flourished in the United States in this period, led American soldiers to repeatedly assert their desire “to get at the niggers.” An anti-imperialist movement, which rejected annexation by the United States of former Spanish colonies like Puerto Rico and the Philippines, attempted to build opposition at home to the increasingly brutal war. Although few soldiers joined the anti-imperialist cause, their statements did sometimes provide ammunition for the opponents of annexation and war. In 1899, the Anti-Imperialist League published a pamphlet of Soldiers Letters, with the provocative subtitle: “Being Materials for a History of a War of Criminal Aggression.” Historian Jim Zwick notes that the publication “was immediately controversial. Supporters of the war discounted the accounts of atrocities as the boasting of soldiers wanting to impress their friends and families at home or, because the identities of some of the writers were withheld from publication, as outright fabrications.” But the brutal portrayal of the war that is found in these letters (excerpts from twenty-seven of them are included here) is supported in other accounts.

Private Fred B. Hinchman, Company A. United States Engineers, writes from Manila, February 22d:

At 1:30 o’clock the general gave me a memorandum with regard to sending out a Tennessee battalion to the line. He tersely put it that “they were looking for a fight.” At the Puente Colgante [suspension bridge] I met one of our company, who told me that the Fourteenth and Washingtons were driving all before them, and taking no prisoners. This is now our rule of procedure for cause. After delivering my message I had not walked a block when I heard shots down the street. Hurrying forward, I found a group of our men taking pot-shots across the river, into a bamboo thicket, at about 1,200 yards. I longed to join them, but had my reply to take back, and that, of course, was the first thing to attend to I reached the office at 3 P.M., just in time to see a platoon of the Washingtons, with about fifty prisoners, who had been taken before they learned how not to take them.


Fred D. Sweet, of the Utah Light Battery:

The scene reminded me of the shooting of jack-rabbits in Utah, only the rabbits sometimes got away, but the insurgents did not.

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/58/





cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Sun 22 May, 2011 07:08 pm
@JTT,
JTT, You're wasting your time trying to provide facts of history to okie. He's not interested in facts; he has his own interpretation of history that isn't in any history book. He's a grade 1 ignoramus - first class. There's no way to educate him with factual history, because his brain has already calcified with bull ****.

I put him on Ignore; to save myself precious time and the aggravation of having to read his stupid posts.
JTT
 
  1  
Sun 22 May, 2011 07:17 pm
@cicerone imposter,
There were, as always, some fair and honest men, CI. But what they wrote is even more damning.

General Reeve, lately Colonel of the Thirteenth Minnesota Regiment:

I deprecate this war, this slaughter of our own boys and of the Filipinos, because it seems to me that we are doing something that is contrary to our principles in the past. Certainly we are doing something that we should have shrunk from not so very long ago.



Ellis G. Davis, Company A, 20th Kansas:

They will never surrender until their whole race is exterminated. They are fighting for a good cause, and the Americans should be the last of all nations to transgress upon such rights. Their independence is dearer to them than life, as ours was in years gone by, and is today. They should have their independence, and would have had it if those who make the laws in America had not been so slow in deciding the Philippine question Of course, we have to fight now to protect the honor of our country but there is not a man who enlisted to fight these people, and should the United States annex these islands, none but the most bloodthirsty will claim himself a hero. This is not a lack of patriotism, but my honest belief.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Sun 22 May, 2011 07:24 pm
@cicerone imposter,
So you have no interest in learning anything that does not fit your template either, is that right, ci? for example, information about atrocities by some Native Americans upon other Native americans, do you deny that, or do you simply not want to consider it as a possibility, ci? I am simply pointing out to you however that archeological excavations do in fact support it as part of ancient history. There are reasons why the ancestral Pueblo peoples do not wish to be called the "Anasazi," and there are reasons why there have been some resentments to this day between the Navajo and some Pueblo tribes.
JTT
 
  1  
Sun 22 May, 2011 07:26 pm
@okie,
Quote:
It would be nice but probably too much to expect you to ever gain a more balanced perspective of reality


Let's expand on that for a bit, Okie.

What do you expect would be the result of say, Canada or Saudi Arabia shutting off their supply of oil to the US?
okie
 
  0  
Sun 22 May, 2011 07:36 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
Let's expand on that for a bit, Okie.
What do you expect would be the result of say, Canada or Saudi Arabia shutting off their supply of oil to the US?
Interesting question, and a question that I think points out why some of our current energy policies are extremely flawed and dangerous. I have long believed and have pointed out on this forum that we are acting very selfishly when we deny drilling for our own oil in places like Alaska and offshore. If drilling is so damaging to the environment, I believe it is potentially just as damaging in Saudi Arabia as it is here in this country. It is the NIMBY mindset, which was exemplified by Ted Kennedy when he opposed wind turbines in his back yard. The same principle applies to many resources, not just in the energy sector.
JTT
 
  2  
Sun 22 May, 2011 07:42 pm
@okie,
Your tangent, while interesting, Okie, didn't address my question at all.

What do you expect would be the result of say, Canada or Saudi Arabia shutting off their supply of oil to the US?
okie
 
  -1  
Sun 22 May, 2011 07:57 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
Your tangent, while interesting, Okie, didn't address my question at all.
It is not only interesting, but it is crucial for us as a country.
Quote:
What do you expect would be the result of say, Canada or Saudi Arabia shutting off their supply of oil to the US?
I would not expect Canada in particular to shut off any supply. Nor do I expect it from Saudi Arabia, but again it merely points out how badly we need our own oil from places like Alaska to replace any shortfall due to a cutoff of supply from any other nation.

My prediction not only applies to us, but to all nations, I believe future wars will be fought over energy and other supplies. I do not support that kind of selfishness, that of taking from others forcefully, thus I strongly support a sound energy policy within our own country, including drilling and developing our own energy supplies.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Sun 22 May, 2011 09:18 pm
@okie,
Quote:
So you have no interest in learning anything that does not fit your template either, is that right, ci? for example, information about atrocities by some Native Americans upon other Native americans . . . {etc}


Not only does okie know nothing about history, he understands nothing about context.

Let's repeat that word: CONTEXT.

No wonder he can not understand history, logic or cause and effect.
JTT
 
  1  
Sun 22 May, 2011 09:36 pm
@plainoldme,
Let's not jump to hasty conclusions, Pom. I think that Okie is headed in the right direction.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 22 May, 2011 10:08 pm
@JTT,
What direction might that be? Right? ROFLMAO
JTT
 
  1  
Sun 22 May, 2011 10:15 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Good one, CI.

But actually, Okie has been making an effort to discuss American atrocities. He's still rather reaganesque about it, but he is trying.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 22 May, 2011 10:27 pm
@JTT,
I hope you have a long life, because that's what it will take before you realize he has made any progress. LOL Think worm; lot'sa walls.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Mon 23 May, 2011 11:10 am
@okie,
Your tangents are interesting, Okie.

Let me rephrase the question.

What do you expect would be the reaction of the US to Canada or Saudi Arabia shutting off the supply of oil to the US?
 

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