ossobuco
 
  1  
Sun 20 May, 2007 02:05 am
Thanks for link. I land with Obama, but Hillary has some beef in the burger
(at the same time she is sooooo not me).



Picturing... Clinton, Bloomberg, Giuliani. Pulls covers over head.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Sun 20 May, 2007 06:02 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
2 Speeches Show Contrasting Campaign Styles

Quote:
Obama Offers Inspiration; Clinton Details Action Plan
...
Obama has generated considerable enthusiasm on college campuses as a candidate who promises the sharpest break with the polarized politics of the past decade, while Clinton is counting on support from younger women to help fuel a potentially history-making campaign that is more grounded in the political establishment.

I'd lift another paragraph from that article, namely:

Quote:
The speeches by the two leading candidates for the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination underscored the basic differences in their campaigns: Obama offering words of inspiration and hope for a new politics of citizen engagement that can transform the country, and Clinton providing a blueprint for putting government to work to deal with the problems afflicting ordinary Americans.


Snippets like this echo, to me, the New Yorker article on Obama that I finally got to read - and which strongly had the opposite effect of what the author must have intended. They are actually reconciling me tiny little bit by tiny little bit with Hillary - still a long way to go until I find her halfway palatable, but at least I am starting to listen. And they go a long way in actually turning me off from Obama.

I'll return to the New Yorker article later (I promise, no really, soon, I just need a little time to elaborate). But basically, my perspective is this: the Bush Jr. administrations were, together with the Reagan administrations, the most radical that the US has had since WW2. They went a long way in utterly transforming political discourse, policy, and the political apparatus. For the worse, much worse. To be able to repair the damage even partly, you'll need a Democratic president with a clear focus of purpose and strong willpower, a tad of ruthlessness even; and that focus needs to be singlemindedly on implementing progressive policy.

At this point in time, you do not need a Vaclav Havel like philosopher-king (and I say that as a great admirer of Havel), because you can not possibly risk wasting the potential chance of a new Democratic presidency the way Bill Clinton did. After Reagan completely turned US society upside down, destroying any kind of social safety net and even the societal notion of social solidarity between rich and poor itself, Clinton proceeded to tinker on the margins for eight years. In 1996, Steve Earle sang, despondently, about the best we could hope for now being "four more years / of things not getting worse". You can not afford to leave it at that again.

You need someone

a) who is aware of how deeply conservative "machine" politics has entrenched itself; cross-aisle cooperation is fine, but any illusion that if you'll just be reasonable enough and focus on sensible proposals enough and you show that you're willing to collaborate, things will just start happening, is dangerously naive.

b) who is eager to be co-operative, but willing to be combative. Who looks for coalitions, sure, thats good - but who is not restricted by any innate uneasiness with conflict and urge to avoid it whenever at all possible.

c) who has both the ideas and the willingness to launch policies that will tackle the systemic basis of problems, rather than just the implementation that can be improved here or there. Sure, you'll still not get half of it through, and you'll still need to build coalitions in Congress to get success with anything. But if you already start off with more of a tendency to just observe general trends in society in a passive voice and maybe propose various sensible and practical little adaptations of policy, then you're guaranteed to remain another Bill Clinton, and thats really not what you want right now.

Anyway, all of this in turn is rather vague and general, but like I said, I want to come back to the New Yorker thing in particular still later.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Sun 20 May, 2007 06:10 am
Obama is starting to remind me of Ross Perot.
He was always saying that there were things wrong and that he was going to "fix them",but he never said how he would fix them.

Obama seems to be doing the same thing.
He sems to be great at broad "we gotta fix this" statements,but a little vague on exactly HOW he wants to fix things.

If he isnt careful,that will come back to bite him.
0 Replies
 
teenyboone
 
  1  
Sun 20 May, 2007 07:01 am
Cool Ossobucco:
We're on the same page. I am for a couple of Dems:
Obama and Kucinich and as of right now, it's a toss up, for me! Hillary is too far right, for me! Too pro-business over pro-consumer safety. Money, is her bottom line!
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Sun 20 May, 2007 07:31 am
Speaking about Kucinich,here is sort of an interesting little article about his wife...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1813550.ece
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Sun 20 May, 2007 07:49 am
Hi nimh, great, I'm glad you got the article, and thanks for sharing your first impressions.

I suspected you might take that general view. You've long reminded me of a friend of mine. We were very politically active in high school -- organizing protests, etc. -- and had mostly the same politics except that I thought the way to actually get things done was gradually and from within the system, while she favored something more revolutionary. We've stuck with our respective viewpoints for 20 years and still argue about it. :-)

Obama's thinking is very much in line with mine. I don't think he seeks out confrontations, but I think he's very willing to stand firm when it comes to something he believes in, and push it through. (Like the videotaping of confessions in Illinois.) I, personally, think that his approach is the most effective, the most likely to get the country to where things need to be.
0 Replies
 
teenyboone
 
  1  
Sun 20 May, 2007 07:57 am
mysteryman wrote:
Speaking about Kucinich,here is sort of an interesting little article about his wife...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article181355

0.ece


So what are you saying and what does her tongue stud have to do with his abilities? Sounds like a "rag-sheet"! Cool
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Sun 20 May, 2007 07:58 am
mysteryman wrote:
Speaking about Kucinich,here is sort of an interesting little article about his wife...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1813550.ece

I particularly aghast to learn that Mrs Kucinich is taller than her husband, I suppose that in the republican handbook that would rank as communistic as being pro-choice and pro-civil rights. Just really dreadful. btw MM did you also know that Kucinich is a vegan? wait, it gets worse, they have a mixed marriage she being Jewish and he a Roman Catholic. but things can get worse, from his own website we learn that he would "endeavor to promote justice and democratic principles to expand human rights ... and develop new structures in nonviolent dispute resolution." Man. What a heretic.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Sun 20 May, 2007 08:36 am
teenyboone wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
Speaking about Kucinich,here is sort of an interesting little article about his wife...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article181355

0.ece


So what are you saying and what does her tongue stud have to do with his abilities? Sounds like a "rag-sheet"! Cool


Since when is the Times of London a rag sheet?

Also,I was not insinuating anything,nor was I implying anything.
I saw the article and thought it was interesting,nothing more.

If I had wanted to add any commentary I would have.
I said all I wanted to say about the article.
Sounds like you are getting defensive about nothing.

dys said...

Quote:
I particularly aghast to learn that Mrs Kucinich is taller than her husband, I suppose that in the republican handbook that would rank as communistic as being pro-choice and pro-civil rights. Just really dreadful. btw MM did you also know that Kucinich is a vegan? wait, it gets worse, they have a mixed marriage she being Jewish and he a Roman Catholic. but things can get worse, from his own website we learn that he would "endeavor to promote justice and democratic principles to expand human rights ... and develop new structures in nonviolent dispute resolution." Man. What a heretic.


Who cares what religion they are,its not important to me.
But,since you mentioned it,it must be important to you.
As for him being vegan,again who cares.
Apparently it matters to you,since you mentioned it.
And I dont care which one of them is the tallest,its not important.

Since I have not seen his website,I will take your word for what it says.
If you are correct about his website,those sound like ideals I can agree with,so again what was your point?

I simply posted an article I found interesting,with no commentary of any kind from me.

You and tenny both seem to be getting your panties in a wad about nothing,and are both getting very defensive for no reason.
Why is that?
0 Replies
 
teenyboone
 
  1  
Sun 20 May, 2007 04:11 pm
mysteryman wrote:
teenyboone wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
Speaking about Kucinich,here is sort of an interesting little article about his wife...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article181355

0.ece


So what are you saying and what does her tongue stud have to do with his abilities? Sounds like a "rag-sheet"! Cool


Since when is the Times of London a rag sheet?

Also,I was not insinuating anything,nor was I implying anything.
I saw the article and thought it was interesting,nothing more.

If I had wanted to add any commentary I would have.
I said all I wanted to say about the article.
Sounds like you are getting defensive about nothing.

dys said...

Quote:
I particularly aghast to learn that Mrs Kucinich is taller than her husband, I suppose that in the republican handbook that would rank as communistic as being pro-choice and pro-civil rights. Just really dreadful. btw MM did you also know that Kucinich is a vegan? wait, it gets worse, they have a mixed marriage she being Jewish and he a Roman Catholic. but things can get worse, from his own website we learn that he would "endeavor to promote justice and democratic principles to expand human rights ... and develop new structures in nonviolent dispute resolution." Man. What a heretic.


Who cares what religion they are,its not important to me.
But,since you mentioned it,it must be important to you.
As for him being vegan,again who cares.
Apparently it matters to you,since you mentioned it.
And I dont care which one of them is the tallest,its not important.

Since I have not seen his website,I will take your word for what it says.
If you are correct about his website,those sound like ideals I can agree with,so again what was your point?

I simply posted an article I found interesting,with no commentary of any kind from me.

You and tenny both seem to be getting your panties in a wad about nothing,and are both getting very defensive for no reason.
Why is that?


And I was commenting on the link! Right, you didn't say anything, but the link, said it all! So I didn't agree with the Times of London! I don't agree with MUCH of what is written in the NY Times, either! It too, is becoming a rag sheet! My opinion, just like the last one, is all! If you can post it, then I can reply! No more no less. Not criticizing you, just the article. This IS still America, isn't it? At least for now, before Bush snatches your so-called "rights", away from you! Cool
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Sun 20 May, 2007 04:35 pm
I know I sound all over the place. I go back a long way on intervention stuff, and all the harm a certain series of military interventions have caused to our sense of ourselves in the US while messing up whole parts of the world for a great deal of money. I know this is arguable at length, but, just saying where I come from. The people who might most represent me on this are unlikely to win nomination. So, when I mention Hillary having beef in the burger, or Bloomberg being interesting, and, after the NYer article on Obama, even when I mention Obama, I'm thinking, who can I stand?

I'm looking as well at Kucinich, Gravel, and Paul; think Richardson is not my guy for local reasons I still don't have verification about. Need to revisit
Edwards, who last I noticed was sabering about Russia.

Oy vey.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Mon 21 May, 2007 07:55 am
sozobe wrote:
I suspected you might take that general view. You've long reminded me of a friend of mine. We were very politically active in high school -- organizing protests, etc. -- and had mostly the same politics except that I thought the way to actually get things done was gradually and from within the system, while she favored something more revolutionary. We've stuck with our respective viewpoints for 20 years and still argue about it. :-)

Yes, I've got the impression that you're yearning for ("finally!") someone reasonable in the White House, and I'm yearning for ("finally!") a fighter.

sozobe wrote:
I, personally, think that his approach is the most effective, the most likely to get the country to where things need to be.

Thats basically where we disagree. Bill Clinton tried gradualism and triangulation, and it didnt yield the US anything more but eight years of things not getting worse.

I think a "nice guy" will be buried in the White House, in today's political context. So I fear that anyone with a "why cant we just all be reasonable about this?" attitude to taking on presidential policy will be shown up as naive. On the community council, sure, on the school board, yeah, in the state Senate, absolutely, and even in the US Senate, where the 60-seat majority thing requires continuous deliberation, yes. But not in the White House.

Anyway, will return later, promise promise.. but not right now..
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Mon 21 May, 2007 08:01 am
nimh wrote:
Yes, I've got the impression that you're yearning for ("finally!") someone reasonable in the White House, and I'm yearning for ("finally!") a fighter.

I always knew you're a Jesse Ventura man. But is he running for office?
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Mon 21 May, 2007 08:07 am
I know what you mean, but I think he has the steel where it's necessary.

I think a central difference between Obama and Clinton is that Clinton had (has) this need for everyone to like him. The whole thing of Gingrich saying that he had to take a shower after talking to him.

Obama doesn't seem to have that same need. He seems to be bemused by the attention, and seems to think that this is an opportunity not to be squandered, but it's that opportunity -- to really accomplish something, to improve the current sorry state of things -- that seems to really galvanize him. He seems to tolerate rather than seek out the spotlight, use it as a means to an end. While with Clinton, the spotlight is a big big part of what drives him.

I think that's important in terms of getting things done, too. Clinton was a very good president, I think. I wouldn't mind someone else like him -- I think he did much more than make things not-worse. But I think Obama would be more single-minded and focused, would kind of quietly do this and that and at the end of four years we'd realize holy ****, look at all that's been accomplished.

In other words, I think he IS a fighter, but I think his brand of fighting is more likely to get somewhere than the "put up your dukes" style of fighting. Despite Bush's best attempts, there is still a balance of power, and a president needs to get people to go along with him or her to make stuff happen.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Mon 21 May, 2007 10:53 am
Thomas wrote:
nimh wrote:
Yes, I've got the impression that you're yearning for ("finally!") someone reasonable in the White House, and I'm yearning for ("finally!") a fighter.

I always knew you're a Jesse Ventura man. But is he running for office?
Laughing

sozobe wrote:
Despite Bush's best attempts, there is still a balance of power, and a president needs to get people to go along with him or her to make stuff happen.
I agree that he is probably most likely to negotiate compromise between the partisans and probably the best man for foreign dialog as well.


It's his politics that stop me from throwing myself at his campaign. :wink:
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Sat 26 May, 2007 12:50 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
In case anybody wants Schlussel's version instead of the George Soros funded "Media Matters" version [..]


Foxfyre wrote:
It would have been more honest of the Soros-funded people to have pointed out that their excerpt was a running commentary [..]. It would have been more honest of the Soros-funded people to have added an addendum [..].

This was Foxfyre calling Media Matters "the Soros-funded people," three times in two posts. I let it slide at the time.

But just to put the matter straight, "Media Matters has never received funding from progressive philanthropist George Soros"; "Soros has never given money to Media Matters, either directly or through another organization".

In fact, when the rightwing website Politico published an op-ed by Tom DeLay alleging that "George Soros [..] has funded an organization called Media Matters for America," it published a correction to distance itself from DeLay's claim:

http://mediamatters.org/static/images/home/politico-20070426.gif

So where does Foxfyre come up with these claims? Well, Drudge made this claim, DeLay made it, Rush Limbaugh ("Media Matters is a Hillary Clinton, George Soros, DNC front group") made it. All unconcerned with it not being true.

Can Foxfyre follow the Politico's example?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Sat 26 May, 2007 01:38 pm
nimh wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
In case anybody wants Schlussel's version instead of the George Soros funded "Media Matters" version [..]


Foxfyre wrote:
It would have been more honest of the Soros-funded people to have pointed out that their excerpt was a running commentary [..]. It would have been more honest of the Soros-funded people to have added an addendum [..].

This was Foxfyre calling Media Matters "the Soros-funded people," three times in two posts. I let it slide at the time.

But just to put the matter straight, "Media Matters has never received funding from progressive philanthropist George Soros"; "Soros has never given money to Media Matters, either directly or through another organization".

In fact, when the rightwing website Politico published an op-ed by Tom DeLay alleging that "George Soros [..] has funded an organization called Media Matters for America," it published a correction to distance itself from DeLay's claim:

http://mediamatters.org/static/images/home/politico-20070426.gif

So where does Foxfyre come up with these claims? Well, Drudge made this claim, DeLay made it, Rush Limbaugh ("Media Matters is a Hillary Clinton, George Soros, DNC front group") made it. All unconcerned with it not being true.

Can Foxfyre follow the Politico's example?


Foxfyre provided her sources, none of which are those you are attributing to me now without sourcing your own opinions. I probably at some point did say George Soros funded Media Matters without qualification based on incorrect information I received. I maintain that there is ample evidence out there--some I've posted and numerous other sources all of which you would likely reject--outlining and specifyin ghow he does fund David Brock and Media Matters through the various leftwing organization that directly fund Media Matters. You are welcome to believe what you wish about the connections. So am I. In my opinion Media Matters is about the most reprehensible and irresponsible media source out there. All of my points about it were made in showing an illustration of one instance that supports my opinion about them.

I am quite happy to state that, so far as I know, George Soros does not write checks directly to Media Matters. The honest among us won't try to deny there is no connection at all, however, or that Media Matters is not benefitting on purpose from Soros funding, and if anybody wants to believe Soros doesn't know what the organizations he funds are doing with his money, I have a nice bridge to sell you.

I don't know how far back you had to go to find those quotes to take out of context, however. You really are obsessed aren't you. Why is that do you think? Would it be helpful if you supplied me with a list of topics, phrases, words, or expressions that are acceptable to you? At least that would help me know when another one of these things is coming.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 26 May, 2007 02:19 pm
Fox has a bridge to sell.... ROFLMAO
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Sat 26 May, 2007 03:08 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Would it be helpful if you supplied me with a list of topics, phrases, words, or expressions that are acceptable to you? At least that would help me know when another one of these things is coming.


Here's a helpful hint. The next time you're about to attempt to smear somebody with a lie, expect to be called on it, and then stop yourself before you post it. I guarantee that will stop this from happening.

Also, I think it's funny that you'd get all indignant with nimh and try to paint it as a personal failing of his to catch you in your lies. That's just over-the-top ridiculous.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Sat 26 May, 2007 04:23 pm
kickycan wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Would it be helpful if you supplied me with a list of topics, phrases, words, or expressions that are acceptable to you? At least that would help me know when another one of these things is coming.


Here's a helpful hint. The next time you're about to attempt to smear somebody with a lie, expect to be called on it, and then stop yourself before you post it. I guarantee that will stop this from happening.

Also, I think it's funny that you'd get all indignant with nimh and try to paint it as a personal failing of his to catch you in your lies. That's just over-the-top ridiculous.


Who do you think I smeared with a lie, Kicky? Please be specific.
0 Replies
 
 

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