cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 31 Dec, 2010 02:20 pm
@parados,
Many middle class families who do not have the money to visit a doctor do not go to the emergency room for care.

From hotair.com:
Quote:
Obama: My hope was a year ago today when I was being sworn in that reversing that process was going to be easier partly because we were entering into a crisis situation and I thought that the urgency of the moment would allow us to join together and make common cause. That hasn’t happened. Some of it, frankly, is I think a strategic decision that was made on the side of the opposition that… I think that some of it had to do with a sense that the best political strategy was to simply say no.

hotair.com:
Here, in a nutshell, is the heads-we-win, tails-you-lose mentality that keeps the State plodding blindly forward, crushing a formerly vibrant economy beneath it. If you don’t answer Obama’s trillion-dollar health-care plan with your own trillion-dollar program, you’re an obstructionist – not an opponent to be debated, but an obstacle to be swept aside. The middle class is frustrated because they understand the basic concept of fiscal responsibility, and they know they – and their children – will be expected to pay for these titanic solutions.
parados
 
  2  
Fri 31 Dec, 2010 02:41 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Many middle class families who do not have the money to visit a doctor do not go to the emergency room for care.

They wait until it really is dire circumstances and will cost more than if something had been treated earlier.

A certain percentage of illnesses people will get over but those don't cost a whole lot to treat in the first place. It's not like cancer will just go away.

Society pays for health care and we pay for health care for everyone. Currently we don't pay for it with taxes but with insurance payments. If we went to single payer tomorrow we Society would still pay for health care but we would pay it through taxation. You are confusing costs with taxation. Cost is cost. Taxation is only one of many ways to meet the cost.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 31 Dec, 2010 02:46 pm
@parados,
That's the problem with MediCare; the cost is much more than the revenues produced. That will not change even when ObamaCare kicks in. That means the government ends up picking up that tab; whether you want to call that tax or not is irrelevant; it increases our national debt.

From alwayshealth.com:
Quote:
Why Men Do Not Visit the Doctor

"If a woman does not feel well, she will go to a doctor, but if a man is unwell, he will normally try and ignore it."

According to the Greek physician Hippocrates 'a wise man ought to realize that his health is his most valuable possession, unfortunately most men fail to take this advice seriously. The fact is that a man’s average life is shorter than that of a woman’s average life and for fifteen years of that life he can expect to be chronically ill.

A survey states that over a third of American men have not had a medical check up last year, while around nine million men have not visited a doctor in five years. These statistics are staggering. It is estimated that men make a 150 million fewer trips to the doctor than women, every year!

Researchers explain that this is very common in most men across the world. Most men feel that a visit to the doctor is a threat to their masculinity.

Added to this are fear, denial and embarrassment. Researchers believe that from a young age men are taught to hold their heads high and ‘get tough’. Admitting to pain or any other problems is seen as a confession to being weak and threatens male pride and machismo.


How do you intend to make men go to see their doctors to make sure their illness doesn't grow into something more serious - at much higher cost? It's not about "having health insurance."
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 31 Dec, 2010 02:57 pm
From the WSJ:
Quote:
How Seniors Will Pay for ObamaCare
In many areas, Medicare Advantage enrollees will lose about one-third of their health insurance benefits. The cuts will finance new subsidies for younger people.

By JOHN C. GOODMAN

Today marks the six-month anniversary of the enactment of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, widely known as ObamaCare. It is a day when the first significant round of benefits kicks in, and the Obama administration is taking every opportunity to tout them to the American public.

Insurers, we are being told, will no longer be able to impose annual limits or lifetime caps on benefits, and they will face a higher standard before than can drop anyone's coverage. Children will be guaranteed access to insurance, regardless of health condition. And there is more to come in the future.

Yet the administration is strangely silent about who will bear the cost of these benefits. Search the government's own health-reform website and you'll get the idea that the whole thing is one big free lunch.


The reality is that the cost of ObamaCare will be quite high for some people. By 2017, thousands of people in Dallas, Houston and San Antonio will be paying more than $5,000 a year in lost health-care benefits to make ObamaCare possible, according to a study published this month by Robert Book at the Heritage Foundation and James Capretta at the Ethics and Public Policy Center. For some New York City dwellers, the figure will exceed $6,000 a year. Unfortunate residents of Ascension, La., will pay more than $9,000 in lost benefits.


Where will we see less cost?
parados
 
  2  
Fri 31 Dec, 2010 03:07 pm
@cicerone imposter,
You continue to look at individual costs instead of total costs. I can't help you if you can't see the forest for the trees CI.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 31 Dec, 2010 03:14 pm
@parados,
They are anecdotal, but I try to support those with sources that support a more global picture of what really happens in health care. If you wish to argue that spreading the cost will reduce the cost, I'd like to see some numbers provided by a reputable organizations that produce such numbers. That's also in contrast to the practice of the majority of men who do not seek doctors for their illness - who may end up with a more serious problem or die.

I just don't see the whole picture of ObamaCare as "costing less."
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 31 Dec, 2010 04:55 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

You continue to look at individual costs instead of total costs. I can't help you if you can't see the forest for the trees CI.



Seeing the forrest in the case of the new health care law is difficult indeed.

The greatest share of the "cost reductions" associated with the plan were associated with the Medicare reimbursement reductions that the Administration has - for obvious political reasons - decided not to pursue, an action that makes it fairly clear that they never really intended to do so and were engaging in a financial shell game.

Huge elements of the cost of Obama care have been transferred to state budgets in the increased eligibility mandated for the Medicaid program. None of these additional costs were included in the propaganda used to rationalize the legislation - the focus was entirely on Federal outlays. Finally we are seeing numerous instances of new regulations laid down on private insurers that will add enormously to their costs, and evenytually to the rates they charge their customers. These new cost were also left out of all the propaganda.

I'll agree that a government managed medical program applicable equally to all could achieve some real savings, chiefly through the elimination of costly, but relatively ineffective treatments based on gross average statistics for longevity and effect on life expectancy. However that would entail clear government-imposed limits on available care and treatment - including the very overstated idea of "death panels" and a considerable loss of individual freedom for us all (not to mention some still unresolved constitutional issues). Unfortunately the Administration has not had the political courage to enact the legislation that might actually achieve the public benefits (if that is the right term) that they so deceitfully claim for the grotesque hermaphrodite they actually enacted in the name of health care "reform".
parados
 
  2  
Fri 31 Dec, 2010 05:06 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
The greatest share of the "cost reductions" associated with the plan were associated with the Medicare reimbursement reductions that the Administration has - for obvious political reasons - decided not to pursue, an action that makes it fairly clear that they never really intended to do so and were engaging in a financial shell game.

And when did they decide to not pursue the reductions in payments under Medicare Advantage?

I think you are confusing the smoke with reality george.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 31 Dec, 2010 05:08 pm
@georgeob1,
I see rationing as a consequence of ObamaCare no matter how you slice it; 40 million more patients to a system that's bursting at the seams can't be the same practice policies for all hospitals, doctors and nurses - and limits on hospital beds.

I just don't see it.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 31 Dec, 2010 05:20 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

Quote:
The greatest share of the "cost reductions" associated with the plan were associated with the Medicare reimbursement reductions that the Administration has - for obvious political reasons - decided not to pursue, an action that makes it fairly clear that they never really intended to do so and were engaging in a financial shell game.

And when did they decide to not pursue the reductions in payments under Medicare Advantage?

I think you are confusing the smoke with reality george.

Several months after the enactment of the Health care law. Do you believe the Administration was at all surprised at the public reaction to the cuts in Medicare? Really ? I believe it is obvious thart that they were either incredibly naive and lacking in insight in a political area in which they had otherwise demonstrated at least a normal level of proviciency, or were engaging in a rather common form of political deception.

Moreover this is consistent with their other accounting tricks in ignoring mandated expenditures by state governments and private insurers as well. I just don't think they are that stupitd.

Do you have a different theory?
parados
 
  1  
Fri 31 Dec, 2010 10:23 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I believe it is obvious thart that they were either incredibly naive and lacking in insight in a political area in which they had otherwise demonstrated at least a normal level of proviciency, or were engaging in a rather common form of political deception.

And let me ask you AGAIN..

When did they decide to not pursue the reductions in payments under Medicare Advantage.\

It isn't an accounting trick if it didn't happen george. I think you are confusing the failure to cut payments to Drs under Medicare with a reduction in payments under Medicare Advantage.
parados
 
  1  
Fri 31 Dec, 2010 10:29 pm
@parados,
As of Nov 29th, the cuts were still in place. I don't recall any legislation in the lame duck session that eliminated the Medicare cuts. Perhaps you can enlighten me as to which legislation that was. Or is that just niggling on my part to point out you are wrong in your claim?

Quote:

Monday, November 29, 2010; 10:31 PM
One of the most significant savings envisioned in the new health- care law - limiting payments to the private health plans that cover 11 million older Americans under Medicare - is, so far, bringing little of the turbulence that the insurance industry and many Republicans predicted.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/29/AR2010112905130.html
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 31 Dec, 2010 10:36 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

It isn't an accounting trick if it didn't happen george. I think you are confusing the failure to cut payments to Drs under Medicare with a reduction in payments under Medicare Advantage.


You may be right. I recall that the Medicare Advantage reductions were in the "advertised medicare savings" and that they were indeed accomplished. I'm not sure if the scheduled physician services cuts were also included in those advertised savings(they are a bit like the AMT in that they are scheduled annually but never really done by an inept and impotent Congress), and as you note they were delayed again this year.

My points about the deceptive exclusion of cost increases to state Medicaid budgets and nearly all private insurance plans from the total cost propaganda were entirely correct.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 31 Dec, 2010 10:54 pm
@georgeob1,
If I remember correctly, the most recent premiums went up double-digits on health insurance.
parados
 
  1  
Fri 31 Dec, 2010 11:01 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:

My points about the deceptive exclusion of cost increases to state Medicaid budgets and nearly all private insurance plans from the total cost propaganda were entirely correct.

Since neither of those are the Federal budget, how was it propaganda?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Fri 31 Dec, 2010 11:02 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Which isn't much different from any year prior to the legislation. I can't think of a single year in the last 30 where health insurance hasn't gone up faster than inflation.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Fri 31 Dec, 2010 11:09 pm
@parados,
That's true, and the main reason why Obama did a dismal job on ObamaCare. As the health insurance premiums continued to increase, the number who had health benefits paid a higher share of the premium, and those millions who lost their jobs no longer had health insurance, and yet the premiums continue to increase at double-digit rates. This could not be sustained for very long, and our country needed a universal health care that included cost savings through cutting of waste, increase efficiency through digitized records, and establish clinics to handle the non-emergency patients at much lower cost.

Nobody still don't know how much ObamaCare is going to end up costing, but I've seen "trillions" in several articles. It wasn't backed up with where, how and why the cost would go that high, so I'm a bit skeptical about those first numbers.

We'll have to wait and see, but I'm sure "tens of billions" is not an unreasonable assumption for the first full year ObamaCare is implemented.
parados
 
  2  
Fri 31 Dec, 2010 11:11 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Over the next 10 years, health care in this country is going to cost trillions. We have a $13 trillion economy and I seem to recall health care is about 20% of the economy.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 31 Dec, 2010 11:13 pm
@parados,
It's currently running at 18% - the highest of any country.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  0  
Fri 31 Dec, 2010 11:51 pm
@revelette,
Carrying on a conversation with a 12 y/o? You are generous with your flattery.
0 Replies
 
 

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