Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Tue 12 Oct, 2010 09:21 am
@JPB,
I don't disagree with that assessment either, JPB. Ol' GW knew that which of he spoke, for sure.

Can you imagine an end to the 2-party system in America, though? It would be chaos - for a while at least.

Cycloptichorn
JPB
 
  1  
Tue 12 Oct, 2010 09:31 am
@Cycloptichorn,
He goes on to say...

Quote:
"The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty."


Seems as though George had a crystal ball, doesn't it? I see us at the pendulum swinging phase now.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Tue 12 Oct, 2010 09:42 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Can you imagine an end to the 2-party system in America, though? It would be chaos - for a while at least.


Imagine it? Are you kidding? Can I imagine an atmosphere of public service whereby those elected to serve are there to solve the problems and issues before them rather than serve the bidding of their parties? Hell, YES, I can imagine it!!!
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Tue 12 Oct, 2010 09:44 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Can you imagine an end to the 2-party system in America, though? It would be chaos - for a while at least.


Imagine it? Are you kidding? Can I imagine an atmosphere of public service whereby those elected to serve are there to solve the problems and issues before them rather than serve the bidding of their parties? Hell, YES, I can imagine it!!!


Somehow I don't see it ending up as cut-and-dry as that. What's more likely is that we would move to a several-party system which is more similar to our current one than you might want.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Tue 12 Oct, 2010 10:21 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Bullshit. You are refusing to admit the fact that the Democrats are keeping themselves from passing bills which they have enough Democrats in both houses to end Republican filibusters and pass.

Furthermore, the Democrats, who are refusing to go along to get along with their leadership, are opposed to what their leadership advocates. Thank goodness, because what the Democrat leadership has advocated and is advocating is distructive to our government and our nation.
CoastalRat
 
  2  
Tue 12 Oct, 2010 10:27 am
@ican711nm,
That is why Obama's message that repubs are the party of no is not going to gain traction in my opinion. Too much was made in the media of the fact that they had gained the 60 vote threshold to turn back republican filibusters. I think (hope) that the electorate is smart enough to see through the rhetoric. I sometimes have my doubts however.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Tue 12 Oct, 2010 10:27 am
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Bullshit. You are refusing to admit the fact that the Democrats are keeping themselves from passing bills which they have enough Democrats in both houses to end Republican filibusters and pass.


Untrue. There are not enough Democrats in the Senate to overcome a filibuster; there are only 58 members of the Dem party in the Senate.

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Tue 12 Oct, 2010 10:28 am
@CoastalRat,
CoastalRat wrote:

That is why Obama's message that repubs are the party of no is not going to gain traction in my opinion. Too much was made in the media of the fact that they had gained the 60 vote threshold to turn back republican filibusters. I think (hope) that the electorate is smart enough to see through the rhetoric. I sometimes have my doubts however.


I'm sorry, but this is just a little ridiculous. The Republicans have abused procedure to unprecedented levels, blocking legislation whether it's controversial or not. If anyone has earned the 'party of No' title, it's the current batch of Republicans.

Cycloptichorn
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Tue 12 Oct, 2010 10:29 am
@Cycloptichorn,
True Cy, but both independents caucus with the dems and I believe more often than not can be expected to support dem policies. But you are correct.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Tue 12 Oct, 2010 10:31 am
@CoastalRat,
CoastalRat wrote:

True Cy, but both independents caucus with the dems and I believe more often than not can be expected to support dem policies. But you are correct.


Lieberman often caucuses with the Dems on social issues, but just as often throws a wrench in the works and supports Republicans on issues such as taxes and defense.

Cycloptichorn
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Tue 12 Oct, 2010 10:33 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Sorry Cy, but the "party of no" title could be given to whatever party is not in power. Just so happens it is currently the republicans. But just wait. In a few months the democrats will be the party of no, at least in the House if current projections hold true. (Not saying they will. I don't see enough gain in the Senate for republicans, but I do still think they will control the House.)
CoastalRat
 
  2  
Tue 12 Oct, 2010 10:34 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Lieberman often caucuses with the Dems on social issues, but just as often throws a wrench in the works and supports Republicans on issues such as taxes and defense.


You are correct again Cy. That is normally the case with Liebermann.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Tue 12 Oct, 2010 10:35 am
@CoastalRat,
CoastalRat wrote:

Sorry Cy, but the "party of no" title could be given to whatever party is not in power. Just so happens it is currently the republicans. But just wait. In a few months the democrats will be the party of no, at least in the House if current projections hold true. (Not saying they will. I don't see enough gain in the Senate for republicans, but I do still think they will control the House.)


You're simply incorrect. This isn't just some opinion of mine, CR - the Republicans have used the Filibuster and other procedural tricks at levels which are more than DOUBLE any Congress has ever done before. Unprecedented levels. The Dems never used tricks to hold up the business of Congress this way in the past, and no past Republican minorities have, either.

It's just false to claim that we can't look at the incidence rate of obstructionism and make judgments that some are more obstructionist than others. I reject your assertions of equivalence, and if you like, I'm more than happy to provide you data to back up my opinion.

I would say that the best evidence that the Republican party is indeed the 'party of no,' is the fact that they are embracing that title - here's just an example from today:

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/10/12/mccain-tea-party-fox/

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Tue 12 Oct, 2010 10:36 am
@CoastalRat,
CoastalRat wrote:

Quote:
Lieberman often caucuses with the Dems on social issues, but just as often throws a wrench in the works and supports Republicans on issues such as taxes and defense.


You are correct again Cy. That is normally the case with Liebermann.


Well - seeing as Defense and Taxes are the two main issues of the day, how can you agree with this without agreeing to the fact that the Republicans are indeed blocking legislation time and time again with their procedural tricks?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Tue 12 Oct, 2010 10:40 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Oh, I forgot to add one more thought to the party of no post. (Edit to add that this would serve to answer your most recent post about repubs embracing the title)

What is wrong with your party, regardless of which it is, being the party of no, particularly when the bills being discussed are so far left (or right as the case may be) that they cannot be reconciled with core values of your side?

I mean, would you really want your side caving in on privatizing SS issue just because a republican president and congress wanted it? No, you'd want your side fighting tooth and nail and doing all they could to stop it.

The problem is that Obama and his admin is seen (emphasize seen) as so far left that little of what he wants is palatable to the right. And he has not been able to or willing to find common ground. So be it. But even Clinton managed to find common ground (and it is why I think of his presidency as being successful, even with the Lewinsky scandal.)
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Tue 12 Oct, 2010 10:50 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
You're simply incorrect. This isn't just some opinion of mine, CR - the Republicans have used the Filibuster and other procedural tricks at levels which are more than DOUBLE any Congress has ever done before. Unprecedented levels. The Dems never used tricks to hold up the business of Congress this way in the past, and no past Republican minorities have, either.


I don't think I've argued that this congress has used procedural rules and such as much as any other congress. I would not argue that without first looking up my facts and without doing so I will take your word for it. But any president of any party can point to the other party in congress and call them the party of no. President Obama doing so as a key part of his campaign speeches is a mistake in my opinion. That is all my comment about the party of no thing was meant to convey.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Tue 12 Oct, 2010 10:53 am
@CoastalRat,
Quote:

What is wrong with your party, regardless of which it is, being the party of no, particularly when the bills being discussed are so far left (or right as the case may be) that they cannot be reconciled with core values of your side?


Well, that sounds nice, but it doesn't match the current situation in Washington at all, or the bills being put forth by the Democrats.

The Dems recently proposed a small-business tax cut bills, EXACTLY like those championed by Republicans in the past; the bill was filibustered by the Republican party.

There are no bills being put forth which are 'so far left' that they cannot be reconciled with the Republican party. I mean, can you name one?

The Stim bill was 40% tax cuts.

The Health Care Reform bill included the individual mandate and State Exchanges - both REPUBLICAN ideas for how to handle health care, not Democratic ones. It also included some elements of tort reform, a Republican idea for lowering hospital costs.

It is simply erroneous to say that the Dems are putting forth legislation that far to the left. They are not. There have been no bills put forth which cannot be reconciled with the Republicans' worldview.

Quote:


The problem is that Obama and his admin is seen (emphasize seen) as so far left that little of what he wants is palatable to the right.


This is because your politicians and media specifically are portraying him that way for their personal gain. I mean, can't you see this?

Quote:
And he has not been able to or willing to find common ground. So be it. But even Clinton managed to find common ground (and it is why I think of his presidency as being successful, even with the Lewinsky scandal.)


It's hard for me to reconcile your claim that he is 'unwilling' to find common ground with the facts of the past congress. Let us take the HCR bill:

Quote:
When Barack Obama informed congressional Republicans last month that he would support a controversial parliamentary move to protect health-care reform from a filibuster in the Senate, they were furious. That meant the bill could pass with a simple majority of 51 votes, eliminating the need for any GOP support for the bill. Where, they demanded, was the bipartisanship the President had promised? So, right there in the Cabinet Room, the President put a proposal on the table, according to two people who were present. Obama said he was willing to curb malpractice awards, a move long sought by the Republicans and certain to bring strong opposition from the trial lawyers who fund the Democratic Party.

What, he wanted to know, did the Republicans have to offer in return?

Nothing, it turned out. Republicans were unprepared to make any concessions, if they had any to make.


Stim bill - Republicans were unwilling to compromise on anything. Financial Reform: Republicans were unwilling to compromise on anything. Where is your opprobrium towards the REPUBLICAN party for refusing to work with the majority on a single issue?

Right now we have a gigantic crisis in the courts, because there are hundreds of positions which can't be filled due to individual senators blocking nominees from coming to a vote. Coburn has placed a 'hold' on ALL legislation in the Senate, for god's sake! Does that sound like what the country needs, to move forward?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Tue 12 Oct, 2010 11:19 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
there are only 58 members of the Dem party in the Senate.

Great! That will prevent the Democrats from continuing their distruction of our economy and our country after the November 2nd elections and prior to many of them being replaced on January 3rd next year.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Tue 12 Oct, 2010 11:22 am
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
there are only 58 members of the Dem party in the Senate.

Great! That will prevent the Democrats from continuing their distruction of our economy and our country after the November 2nd elections and prior to many of them being replaced on January 3rd next year.


That isn't really an issue anyway - there are several Republicans who will win their election and get sat immediately, due to the fact that they are participating in special elections.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  -2  
Tue 12 Oct, 2010 01:17 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

Quote:
Parados, you deserve credit, you did find quotes of mine, wherein I used the term destroy for Obama's actions in those posts. My apologies to you. I probably was particularly irritated on those days I placed those posts.

I don't see an apology for calling me a liar okie. I only see you admitting that you were wrong.

That should be enough. You don't see an apology, which makes me wonder if you can read with comprehension? What do you think "my apologies to you" mean anyway? I did apologize. In terms of being a liar, I am not going to apologize for that, because first of all I think you have twisted or misrepresented what I have said about other things. In fact, you have not provided any evidence for some or much of what you have accused me of. Secondly, you have called me a liar, to which I have not seen any retraction even though you have not at all provided evidence that I knowingly lie here. I had forgotten about saying that Obama should be impeached, which I acknowledged when you quoted me, but many of your other accusations about things I have said, you have yet to provide any evidence of them.

You still insist that I said Obama hated America, even though you cannot find any quotes like that, only statements that I think he does not have the same affection or love for America that I think he should have, also that I think he has some resentments and hangups, that he also thinks America has been unfair to some. I stand by those statements, but that is far different than saying that I think he hates America. You are a master at twisting other peoples words, parados, but I suggest if you are going to quote me, then do it accurately. I am not going to let you off the hook over you twisting and re-interpreting what I have said. Why not just quote what I have said, and I will gladly either defend the words or clarify them for you?
 

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