okie
 
  1  
Wed 19 May, 2010 02:13 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

I think maybe we fight until we figure out that we need to work together and fix things, both for our kids and to keep our bankers happy. This could take awhile.

The problem with quote unquote "working together" is that to Democrats, this means conservatives give in and do it their way. Sorry, I don't buy it, we've been going their way far too long, and that is the main reason we are in the mess we are in. The only way to fix the mess is to defeat liberalism and return to conservative principles, the only principles that work. They are the principles on which the country and the constitution were founded and made successful, and they are the only principles that will return us to responsible and sane policies.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Wed 19 May, 2010 03:03 pm
@okie,
Quote:
The only way to fix the mess is to defeat liberalism and return to conservative principles, the only principles that work.
a nice illustration of how we got into this deep hole. Way too many people believe that their view can bash the other side into submission, so compromise is seen as giving up too soon, settling for less that they could get.

Libs do the same thing, on the smallest pretense ofter the Obama win they decided that they had clearance to ignore all other views, and the people who did not agree with them. It did not work out so well now did it?

Instead of watching the left/right struggle we should be watching the adult/child also known as the well educated/poorly educated struggle. Trouble is anyone who has been to University thinks that they are well educated, when in fact most universities now practice indoctrination rather than education. We need the adults (well educated) to try to take over the leadership roles, the idiot masses tend to ignore the wise but that is no excuse for not trying.
spendius
 
  0  
Wed 19 May, 2010 03:13 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
the idiot masses tend to ignore the wise but that is no excuse for not trying.


That's because the wise tell them things they don't wish to hear and in a democratic market economy they don't have to once giant media companies are so highly geared that they have to give them what they want.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Wed 19 May, 2010 03:19 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
That's because the wise tell them things they don't wish to hear and in a democratic market economy they don't have to once giant media companies are so highly geared that they have to give them what they want.
that is not a critical flaw in democracy, that is evidence of a failure of education. The well educated recognize and appreciate wisdom, and have a taste for the refined things that advanced civilization can bring.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Wed 19 May, 2010 03:23 pm
@okie,
Quote:
They are the principles on which the country and the constitution were founded and made successful, and they are the only principles that will return us to responsible and sane policies.


Like the wheelbarrow and rickets and money that can be counted out?

Let's face it--Mr Obama's win was from a seemingly impossible position. What obstacles did the conservatives have to overcome? A black, junior senator from the industrial belt with an uncertain pedigree.

What are your top five acheivable sane policies?
okie
 
  0  
Wed 19 May, 2010 03:51 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
We need the adults (well educated) to try to take over the leadership roles, the idiot masses tend to ignore the wise but that is no excuse for not trying.

hawkeye, I think ultimately in a democracy, the country will eventually get what it deserves. Historically, this principle has proven to happen, and so the downside of a democracy or representative republic is that people have freedom, yes, but that freedom carries with it alot of responsibility, responsibility of electing leaders that are good for the long term health of the country, not the short term wants of the people. If the people become short sighted and selfish, and demand the government take care of them, they will in fact vote for their own re-enslavement and loss of liberty. So, the idiot masses can ignore the wise, and a culture will ultimately get what it deserves. This is why the moral backbone of a culture is so important, we must understand what is at stake at least a majority of us must understand it and be able ot outvote the idiot masses. In a democracy, it amounts to a battle of ideas, political ideas, and a free and open press is so crucial to this battle as well. That is one reason I participate on a forum like this, I can feel like I have tried to express what I think and thoroughly believe is best for the country, and I only convince or sway one person, it will have been worth it.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Wed 19 May, 2010 04:35 pm
@okie,
forums like this, and the exchange of ideas in general, is the balm that America needs. Only the competition of ideas can lead to the fixing of education, poor education being the poison that is wrecking this democracy. However, even here at a2k we have seen a strong push for censorship......the habitual shouting down of ideas considered not morally worth consideration. The level of discourse in America is pathetic , and I see a lot of evidence that much of the world suffers from the same deficiency. Optimism is hard to justify at the moment.

Note: I gather that you think morality is bad because people want to do things that are "bad". I take it as a given that people are partly bad, my problem with American morality is that it is used as a shield to prevent us as a collective from doing what needs to be done. At root the problem is that people care about the wrong things, which is a function of bad education, and perhaps you and I could agree that far....
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 19 May, 2010 04:38 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
However, even here at a2k we have seen a strong push for censorship......the habitual shouting down of ideas considered not morally worth consideration.


That's not censorship, buddy. Censorship would be the owners of the site refusing to allow you to post your views. What you are describing is the experience of being highly out of sync with the majority on issues, and having that majority use their freedom of expression to let you know.

Cycloptichorn
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Wed 19 May, 2010 04:42 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
That's not censorship, buddy. Censorship would be the owners of the site refusing to allow you to post your views
I dont agree with that narrow definition of censorship. I think that collectives that refuse to hear ideas that they don't want to consider have engaged in censorship. Censorship is the constricting of discourse by force, who does it does not matter.
okie
 
  1  
Wed 19 May, 2010 04:42 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

What are your top five acheivable sane policies?

A great question, and one that I take as a great opportunity to provide the best answers I can come up with. I am glad for the question also because I have not yet taken the time to personally pick 5 primary politicies out of what could be a pretty long list. Here is my list after some thought. The list is not necessarily in order of absolute priority, but perhaps approximate priority. And I have added a 6th point, which should actually apply to all of the other points as well as the entire government.

1. Fiscally responsible federal government - actually this policy has several aspects to it, which can be assisted by some of the other 5 primary policies that I list here, but ultimately the bottom line must be a balanced federal budget, federal expenditures must not exceed federal tax revenues. To achieve that goal, cutting spending should be the highest priority.

2. Smaller federal government and a re-affirmation of our belief in people and the state and local governments to take care of most of our needs. One example would be education, wherein we could eliminate the federal department of education and entrust the education of our children to the people, either through locally run government schools and their school boards as we already have, or through private schools funded by some kind of voucher system.

3. Re-affirm our belief in capitalism and free market solutions to most of our needs, rather than government solutions. A large component of this policy would be the reduction of the adversarial relationship between government and business. Tax policies and other regulatory policies should be reformed to make it more attractive to operate in the U.S. instead of going offshore. I do not give it much chance, but one huge reform could be getting rid of the income tax system and replace it with the "Fair Tax," or retail sales tax, which I think would stimulate one of the largest economic booms ever witnessed in America.

4. Fix our broken immigration policy. A nation that cannot secure its borders will not survive as a nation. I think a key component of being able to fix this problem is not to hire more border patrol agents, but to provide a good way for employers to check citizenship, and then very severely fine any employer or person that hires any illegal alien. When the jobs dry up, the illegals will quit streaming across the border and they will go home. Also, make it highly illegal for any state or local authority or entity to provide any service or refuge for illegal aliens, and provide the appropriate punishment for those entitites under the law. Another part of my immigration policy is that if we find that we seriously need more immigrants to provide the needed labor in some industries or regions, then up the numbers, but screen out the criminals, drug dealers, and gangsters, the people must meet the a decent criteria for citizenship in this country.

5. Clarify and better define our national defense, foreign policy, and terrorist policies, and stay committed to those policies. Do not allow political correctness and other nonsensical policies hinder our ability to detect, arrest, and prosecute people that are bent upon doing our country and our people harm.

6. An extra point, one that should just be understood to be there throughout all of the policies and bueaucracies. We must have a moral foundation throughout our culture and society, as individuals, which will translate into our collective moral foundation. A part of this is to root out all corruption in government, as honesty should remain supreme. As part of some unfinished business along this line, I think entitities like Fannie and Freddie should be answering some very serious questions and the guilty should be prosecuted. Also voter fraud should not be tolerated, and organizations like ACORN should be called to account. Another example, foreign campaign contributions to Obama need to be properly investigated and prosecuted.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Wed 19 May, 2010 05:01 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

forums like this, and the exchange of ideas in general, is the balm that America needs. Only the competition of ideas can lead to the fixing of education, poor education being the poison that is wrecking this democracy. However, even here at a2k we have seen a strong push for censorship......the habitual shouting down of ideas considered not morally worth consideration. The level of discourse in America is pathetic , and I see a lot of evidence that much of the world suffers from the same deficiency. Optimism is hard to justify at the moment.

Note: I gather that you think morality is bad because people want to do things that are "bad". I take it as a given that people are partly bad, my problem with American morality is that it is used as a shield to prevent us as a collective from doing what needs to be done. At root the problem is that people care about the wrong things, which is a function of bad education, and perhaps you and I could agree that far....

Fascinating post, hawkeye. In regard to morality, I think the collective morality of a culture is a result of all of our individual levels of morality. In other words, if everyone thinks its great or okay to abort their unborn, then thats a very bad symptom of a very deep rooted problem, that being the people are not believing they need to take responsibility for their actions. That is only one example. I also think helping our neighbors is a personal responsibility, and doing so personally or giving to a charity is far more productive than believing that government should take care of the problem. For example, I think Democrats have this belief that personal morality doesn't matter, that somehow if they vote for the government to tax the bejeebers out of everybody to give to their voters, thats all that matters, their conscience is then clear. I am sorry, but that is just not right, I cannot become moral by forcing somebody else to do what I don't have the gumption to do.

Morality starts at home, with us as individuals, and as we go, so goes the nation. Therefore, we must take responsibility for our lives, our sexuality, our offspring, our families, our jobs, our living, and our freedom and liberty. As Benjamin Franklin said: "Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 19 May, 2010 05:03 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
That's not censorship, buddy. Censorship would be the owners of the site refusing to allow you to post your views
I dont agree with that narrow definition of censorship. I think that collectives that refuse to hear ideas that they don't want to consider have engaged in censorship. Censorship is the constricting of discourse by force, who does it does not matter.


Nobody is 'refusing to hear' your ideas. They simply think that they do not merit serious discussion, or that they are worthy of scorn. That is a problem with your ideas, not censorship.

Cycloptichorn
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Wed 19 May, 2010 05:13 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Nobody is 'refusing to hear' your ideas. They simply think that they do not merit serious discussion, or that they are worthy of scorn. That is a problem with your ideas, not censorship.
Perhaps, but i was not talking about myself...You have jumped topics.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 19 May, 2010 05:15 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Nobody is 'refusing to hear' your ideas. They simply think that they do not merit serious discussion, or that they are worthy of scorn. That is a problem with your ideas, not censorship.
Perhaps, but i was not talking about myself...You have jumped topics.


What topics do people refuse to hear? I'd be interested to know.

Cycloptichorn
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Wed 19 May, 2010 05:25 pm
@okie,
Quote:
Therefore, we must take responsibility for our lives, our sexuality, our offspring, our families, our jobs, our living, and our freedom and liberty.
Exactly, and because I believe that it appears to many that I line up with you right wingers. I have nothing but scorn for the plank in liberal ideology that invites individuals to shuck their personal responsibility by claiming victim status, and also by demanding that rights are owed before they are earned. Not that you boys on the right have shown much responsibility mind you, but at least you seem to have some understanding that irresponsibility is bad somehow.

I am on the left, not the right, but you guys are correct about some things.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Wed 19 May, 2010 05:35 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
What topics do people refuse to hear? I'd be interested to know.
the subject is censorship, the bankruptcy of American discourse. A good current example of this is the nearly complete lack of honest media or political discussion about the Arizona law. Left wing political pressure groups have been very successful in killing debate, even though they are clearly the minority opinion in America.
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Wed 19 May, 2010 07:01 pm
@H2O MAN,
H2O MAN wrote:

http://www.foxnews.com/images/root_images/051910_correctedmohammed_20100519_135526.jpg


Do yall remember how, back in 1987 or so, there was an "artist" who put a crucifix in a bottle of piss. A couple of years later there was a painting of Mary surrounded by porn images.
In both cases, the National Endowment for the Arts was involved, which complicated the issue. Public funding of "art" that many in this country found offensive to many in the U.S.
I was reading a conservative blog this afternoon. Yes, there are some conservative blogs I - a liberal - follow and respect.
I inadvertently shredded my notes, but the author's point seemed to be that we in the U.S. and elsewhere have the right and should defend the right to free speech.
But, he says in conclusion, while we should defend that right, that doesn't mean we shouldn't learn to keep our mouths shut.
slkshock7
 
  1  
Wed 19 May, 2010 07:04 pm
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy,
Makes me wonder if anybody in the NEA would have the cojones to fund an artist who wanted to display the Koran in a bottle of piss.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Wed 19 May, 2010 07:11 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
The only way to fix the mess is to defeat liberalism and return to conservative principles, the only principles that work.
a nice illustration of how we got into this deep hole. Way too many people believe that their view can bash the other side into submission, so compromise is seen as giving up too soon, settling for less that they could get.

Libs do the same thing, on the smallest pretense ofter the Obama win they decided that they had clearance to ignore all other views, and the people who did not agree with them. It did not work out so well now did it?

Instead of watching the left/right struggle we should be watching the adult/child also known as the well educated/poorly educated struggle. Trouble is anyone who has been to University thinks that they are well educated, when in fact most universities now practice indoctrination rather than education. We need the adults (well educated) to try to take over the leadership roles, the idiot masses tend to ignore the wise but that is no excuse for not trying.


This is so amusing considering that Republican principles, or lack thereof, got us into the terrible messes this country has been in over the past decade. Bush and company lied us into a horrible war, foolishly occupied another country, ruined the economy, which cost eight million jobs, trashed trillions from the economy, and had the only decade in history in which this country had a net loss of jobs. And you want people to vote Republican? LOL
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Wed 19 May, 2010 07:55 pm
@Advocate,
Quote:
And you want people to vote Republican?
I am a leftest, who wants America to get smart and replace both parties....so no.
0 Replies
 
 

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