realjohnboy
 
  1  
Tue 13 Apr, 2010 06:44 pm
Good evening. The argument that President Obama's poll rating numbers are "plummeting" is absurd. I realize that asking for a citation for that would be fruitless.
Have yall been following the nuke summit in D.C. this week? I think I got my mind around what it is all about. If it works, it could be a pretty big deal and Mr Obama could score some points. But it is so complicated. I am not sure that it will end up being a positive for him.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -2  
Tue 13 Apr, 2010 06:52 pm
Barrack Obama is dangerous, and not because he wants to surrender America to Hugo Chavez, or set up Death Panels for old white people.

He's dangerous because his hubris knows no bounds and he is utterly committed to being a "transformative" figure in the history of not only the US, but of the world.

I think he truly believes all the grandiose, self-aggrandizing rhetoric he spewed during the campaign.

He doesn't want to be simply the first Black President, and I don't blame him, but he's clearly not satisfied with the notion of being "simply" an effective chief executive of the government of the most powerful nation on earth.

Sometime in his life he decided that he is destined for Big Things and that means attempting Big Things, irrespective of whether they're needed.

Healthcare Reform!

How many times did he stress that this was a goal that escaped numerous presidents in the past, that it's achievement was historic and by implication, something only He could accomplish.

Put aside the fact that his "achievement" is a legislative monstrosity that the majority of Americans opposed, that no one fully understands, that will bankrupt the nation, and which is going to cost his political party its dominance of the government.

He did it.

For the time being he seems to have put aside his goal to save Mother Earth from humanity's carbon load, and focused on ridding the world of nuclear weapons.

Considering what he was willing to do and sacrifice to achieve the mantle of Health Care Reformer, how far is he willing to go to claim he's The Ender of Nuclear War?

More importantly, what will he do when the policies he has imposed on the nation in order to achieve his narcissistic aims result in an end to his power?

Will he stroll off the scene, content with only four years in which to work his transformative magic? Can he do that knowing how many more Big Things he can achieve with power?

Maybe he can, probably he can, and certainly I hope he can, but this is the very same story of so many tyrants throughout history. Why should the people who believe there is nothing particularly exceptional about America think that we are immune to this archetype leader?

We'll see won't we?
old europe
 
  2  
Tue 13 Apr, 2010 07:01 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Short summary: Obama is dangerous because he is endangering the nation by introducing health care reform and by trying to reduce the risk of nuclear proliferation.
okie
 
  1  
Tue 13 Apr, 2010 08:53 pm
@old europe,
Even Obama has admitted the potential for nuclear is greater today, so he has not reduced the risk of nuclear proliferation at all. Giving up our capability does nothing to reduce proliferation, nothing, in fact it works in reverse. Only a dolt would believe that it would. Similarly, Obamacare is not making the nation more healthy, in fact it is working in reverse.
okie
 
  0  
Tue 13 Apr, 2010 10:55 pm
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy wrote:

Good evening. The argument that President Obama's poll rating numbers are "plummeting" is absurd. I realize that asking for a citation for that would be fruitless.
Have yall been following the nuke summit in D.C. this week? I think I got my mind around what it is all about. If it works, it could be a pretty big deal and Mr Obama could score some points. But it is so complicated. I am not sure that it will end up being a positive for him.

Well, the converse of Obama's poll numbers plummeting is hardly true as well. If you take a look at the following graph, his strongly disapprove number is essentially as high as ever, while his strongly approve number has revived a little, but not enough to make his numbers glow by any means, and if that number takes another swoon, I would call it an overall plummet. I would ask one question, what has Obama done that is notable as president, name just one thing that he has been successful with, one thing? Health care, he rammed it down our throats, is that it? Then go down the list, national defense, economic, the wars, can anyone name anything outstanding in regard to accomplishment? I fail to see anything at all. Everything has been lackluster if not wholly uninspiring or complete failure. The country is more divided than ever, and I would say extremely nervous in regard to the leadership, and I think itching for true change back to credible and responsible leadership and government. Obama and the Democrats are clearly not the answer.

If you are hoping to rely upon the nuke summit for Obama to be successful, forget it, rjb.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/var/plain/storage/images/media/obama_index_graphics/april_2010/obama_approval_index_april_13_2010/304166-1-eng-US/obama_approval_index_april_13_2010.jpg
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Tue 13 Apr, 2010 11:10 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Still waiting for those quotes, Okie.

Cycloptichorn

I could start with this. Not a quote, but actions speak much louder than words, actions which demonstrate a lack of respect for ones own country, kind of unusual for a presidential candidate and a president, very very unusual, cyclops.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/columnists/mdavis/stories/DN-markdavis_1121edi.ART.State.Edition1.36d835b.html

"You are standing in a crowd as the national anthem is played. Where is your right hand?

Maybe it is over your heart, maybe not. If it isn't, what does that say about you? Perhaps nothing. Maybe patriotic gestures aren't your thing. Maybe you just forgot.

But what does it mean if you consciously avoid this gesture at a campaign event while you are running for president of the United States?
This has happened " and not just once " to Democrat Barack Obama. Our job is to figure out how much it matters.

Curiosity about the most famous such instance has sparked interest in the most viewed page at Web watchdog Snopes.com, the heroic souls who beg us to check the accuracy of items in our inboxes before forwarding them to hundreds of gullible people.

Turns out this one is true, and cameras were there to record it.

At an Indianola, Iowa, campaign event in September, as the national anthem is sung, candidates Hillary Rodham Clinton and Bill Richardson stand respectfully, hands over their hearts. Mr. Obama's hands are nonchalantly clasped in front of him, as if he were in line at the dry cleaners."
old europe
 
  2  
Tue 13 Apr, 2010 11:55 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:
Even Obama has admitted the potential for nuclear is greater today, so he has not reduced the risk of nuclear proliferation at all.


At least he recognized the problem. No matter what your position on the risk of nuclear proliferation is, it's hard to argue that the collapse of the USSR has not drastically increased the problem. Trying to blame Obama for this problem looks a bit silly.

okie wrote:
Giving up our capability does nothing to reduce proliferation, nothing, in fact it works in reverse. Only a dolt would believe that it would.


Oh, does it? Then please explain how a bilateral agreement between Russia and the United States about reducing nuclear warheads *increases* the risk of nuclear proliferation. I'd really like to hear how that's supposed to work.

And I'd also like to hear whether or not the same is true when Reagan and Bush I proposed and signed similar agreements, followed by a reduction of American warheads. Did those treaties and reductions increase nuclear proliferation?
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Wed 14 Apr, 2010 08:18 am


Obama's health deform bill includes nasty little surprises:

• Despite promises that ObamaCare would cut costs for average Americans, we now see a front-page headline in the Los Angeles Times that tells us "Health care overhaul won't stop premium increases." Why? "Although Democrats promised greater consumer protection, the overhaul does not give the federal government broad regulatory power to prevent increases."

If it did, the health insurance industry would soon go the way of the Dodo bird. Contrary to overhaul supporters' propaganda, the industry's profit margin is tiny " just 3.5% of sales. Premiums are rising not because of insurers' greed, but due to higher health care costs driven by out-of-control government spending, which is growing twice as fast as the private sector.

• An IBD/TIPP Poll last summer showed that as many as 45% of practicing physicians would consider retiring or giving up their practice if ObamaCare was passed. That's bad enough. Now comes this tidbit from the Wall Street Journal: "At current graduation and training rates, the nation could face a shortage of as many as 150,000 doctors in the next 15 years, according to the Association of American Medical Colleges."

It's no surprise that fewer smart, talented, driven people want to become doctors. Why should they? To face an endless barrage of bureaucratic paperwork? To be second-guessed on every procedure they perform or prescription they write? To have their incomes capped forever?

Government already makes up half the $2.5 trillion spent last year on health care. What reasonable person would spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on schooling and more than a decade on training just to work for a government bureaucracy? The answer is obvious. And the numbers show it.

• Along with fewer doctors, we're now about to see fewer hospitals " all thanks to ObamaCare. The new law essentially forbids doctor-owned hospitals from expanding, and makes it nearly impossible for doctors to open new hospitals.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Wed 14 Apr, 2010 08:50 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Still waiting for those quotes, Okie.

Cycloptichorn

I could start with this. Not a quote, but actions speak much louder than words, actions which demonstrate a lack of respect for ones own country, kind of unusual for a presidential candidate and a president, very very unusual, cyclops.



So pathetic, Okie. So weak. You couldn't find anything where Obama denounced America? You said you could on more then one occasion. Why don't you just admit that you're wrong, rather then frantically casting about for anything you can use to attack him?

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  -1  
Wed 14 Apr, 2010 01:29 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

So pathetic, Okie. So weak. You couldn't find anything where Obama denounced America? You said you could on more then one occasion. Why don't you just admit that you're wrong, rather then frantically casting about for anything you can use to attack him?

Cycloptichorn

Pointing out lack of respect for the flag is pathetic and weak as evidence of Obama dis-respecting America? About all I have to say about your comment is that you have no common sense. I won't admit I am wrong, because I am not. You fail on the first salvo I fired to dismiss the truth of what I posted. I will be back with more.
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Wed 14 Apr, 2010 01:44 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

So pathetic, Okie. So weak. You couldn't find anything where Obama denounced America? You said you could on more then one occasion. Why don't you just admit that you're wrong, rather then frantically casting about for anything you can use to attack him?

Cycloptichorn

Pointing out lack of respect for the flag is pathetic and weak as evidence of Obama dis-respecting America? About all I have to say about your comment is that you have no common sense. I won't admit I am wrong, because I am not. You fail on the first salvo I fired to dismiss the truth of what I posted. I will be back with more.


You specifically said Obama denounced America. Now you can't find evidence of him doing that. Your answer was weak and you know it. You won't admit you're wrong, because you have a problem doing that. I did not fail to dismiss the truth of what you posted, because what you posted didn't meet your own criteria. Weak - and boring. Please try harder.

Cycloptichorn
Below viewing threshold (view)
okie
 
  2  
Wed 14 Apr, 2010 09:43 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

You specifically said Obama denounced America. Now you can't find evidence of him doing that. Your answer was weak and you know it. You won't admit you're wrong, because you have a problem doing that. I did not fail to dismiss the truth of what you posted, because what you posted didn't meet your own criteria. Weak - and boring. Please try harder.

Cycloptichorn

I'm not done, count on that, but by ignoring the flag, he did denounce America in my opinion, maybe not yours, but I happen to have lived in places that respect the flag, maybe they don't in Berkeley? I happen to know people that are mostly patriotic, maybe you do not, and therefore do not know it when America is being denounced? Maybe you also think 9/11 was merely a case of the "chickens coming home to roost," hey I don't know, I do not understand the liberal mind or the minds of people that Obama looks up to for guidance and worship.
DrewDad
 
  2  
Wed 14 Apr, 2010 10:02 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:
by ignoring the flag, he did denounce America in my opinion

You have a very strange understanding of the word "denounce", then.


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/denounce

Quote:

de·nounce

1 : to pronounce especially publicly to be blameworthy or evil <they denounced him as a bigot>
2 archaic a : proclaim b : to announce threateningly
3 : to inform against : accuse
4 obsolete : portend
5 : to announce formally the termination of (as a treaty)
synonyms see criticize


0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Wed 14 Apr, 2010 10:48 pm
okie makes a big deal of a small portion, carefully cherry-picked, of a Snopes article. Of course, if you actually go back to Snopes' several articles on the topic, you find many pictures of Obama with his hand over his heart. Another silly right-wing tempest in a teapot.
dlowan
 
  1  
Wed 14 Apr, 2010 11:01 pm
@okie,
Snort.

What idiocy.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Wed 14 Apr, 2010 11:03 pm
@MontereyJack,
Why would any sane individual GIVE a ****?

Okie does, but, well, one rests one case.

Snopes ought not, perhaps, to have dignified it with a comment...but I suppose they know their audience and what sheer nonsense might influence it.


Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Thu 15 Apr, 2010 07:55 am
@MontereyJack,
Okie has made a career of being the 11th midget to emerge from a moving VW beatle in a side ring of a traveling circus while carrying a sigh that says "The Tailban are Socialistic."
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  -1  
Thu 15 Apr, 2010 08:15 am
Quote:

http://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprimis/archive/issue.asp?year=2010&month=02
February 2010
Paul Ryan
Member, U.S. House of Representatives

Health Care in a Free Society
PAUL RYAN is in his sixth term as a member of Congress, representing Wisconsin's First Congressional District. He is the ranking member of the House Budget Committee and a senior member of the House Ways and Means Committee. A graduate of Miami University in Ohio, he and his wife Janna have three children and live in Janesville, Wisconsin.

The following is adapted from a speech delivered on January 13, 2010, in Washington, D.C., at an event sponsored by Hillsdale College's Allan P. Kirby, Jr. Center for Constitutional Studies and Citizenship.

SOMEONE once said that before there was the New Deal, there was the Wisconsin Deal. In my home state, the University of Wisconsin was an early hotbed of progressivism, whose goal was to reorder society along lines other than those of the Constitution. The best known Wisconsin progressive in American politics was Robert LaFollette. “Fighting Bob,” as he was called, was a Republican"as was Theodore Roosevelt, another early progressive. Today we tend to associate progressivism mostly with Democrats, and trace it back to Woodrow Wilson. But it had its roots in both parties.

The social and political programs of the progressives came in on two great waves: the New Deal of the 1930s and the Great Society of the 1960s. Today, President Obama often invokes progressivism and hopes to generate its third great wave of public policy. In thinking about what this would mean, we need look no farther than the health care reform program he is promoting along with the leadership in Congress.

Let me say here at the beginning that even though survey after survey shows that 75 percent or more of Americans are satisfied with the quality of their health care, no one I know in Congress denies that health care reform is needed. Everyone understands that health care in our country has grown needlessly expensive, and that some who want coverage cannot afford it. The ongoing debate over health care, then, is not about whether there should be reform; it is about what the principle of that reform ought to be.

Under the terms of our Constitution, every individual has a right to care for their health, just as they have a right to eat. These rights are integral to our natural right to life"and it is government's chief purpose to secure our natural rights. But the right to care for one's health does not imply that government must provide health care, any more than our right to eat, in order to live, requires government to own the farms and raise the crops.

Government's constitutional obligations in regard to protecting such rights are normally met by establishing the conditions for free markets"markets which historically provide an abundance of goods and services, at an affordable cost, for the largest number. When free markets seem to be failing to meet this goal"and I would argue that the delivery of health care today is an example of where this is the case"government, rather than seeking to supply the need itself, should look to see if its own interventions are the root of the problem, and should make adjustments to unleash competition and choice.

With good reason, the Constitution left the administration of public health"like that of most public goods"decentralized. If there is any doubt that control of health care services should not have been placed in the federal government, we need only look at the history of Medicare and Medicaid"a history in which fraud has proliferated despite all efforts to stop it and failure to control costs has become a national nightmare. In 1966 the cost of Medicare to the taxpayers was about $3 billion. The House Ways and Means Committee estimated that it would cost $12 billion (adjusted for inflation) by 1990. The actual cost in 1990 was nearly nine times that"$107 billion. By 2009 Medicare costs reached $427 billion, with Medicaid boosting that by an additional $255 billion. And this doesn't take into account the Medicaid expansion in last year's “stimulus.”

The health care reform bills that emerged from the House and the Senate late last year would only exacerbate this crisis. The federal takeover of health care that those bills represent would subsume approximately one-sixth of our national economy. Combined with spending at all levels, government would then control about 50 percent of total national production.

The good news is that we have a choice. There are three basic models for health care delivery that are available to us: (1) today's business-government partnership or “crony capitalism” model, in which bureaucratized insurance companies monopolize the field in most states; (2) the progressive model promoted by the Obama administration and congressional leaders, in which federal bureaucrats tell us which services they will allow; and (3) the model consistent with our Constitution, in which health care providers compete in a free and transparent market, and in which individual consumers are in control.

We are urged today"out of compassion"to support the progressive model; but placing control of health care in the hands of government bureaucrats is not compassionate. Bureaucrats don't make decisions about health care according to personal need or preference; they ration resources according to a dollar-driven social calculus. Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, one of the administration's point people on health care, advocates what he calls a “whole life system”"a system in which government makes treatment decisions for individuals using a statistical formula based on average life expectancy and “social usefulness.” In keeping with this, the plans that recently emerged from Congress have a Medicare board of unelected specialists whose job it would be to determine the program's treatment protocols as a method of limiting costs.

President Obama said in December: “If we don't pass [this health care reform legislation]...the federal government will go bankrupt, because Medicare and Medicaid are on a trajectory that are [sic] unsustainable....” On first hearing, this argument appears ludicrous: We must stop the nation from going broke by enacting a program costing $800 billion or more in its first decade alone? On the other hand, if the President means what he says, there is only one way to achieve his stated goal under the new program: through deep and comprehensive government rationing of health care.

The idea that the government should make decisions about how long people should live and who should be denied care is something that Americans find repugnant. As is true of the supply of every service or product, the supply of health care is finite. But it is a mistake to conclude that government should ration it, rather than allowing individuals to order their needs and allocate their resources among competing options. Those who are sick, special needs patients, and seniors are the ones who will be most at risk when the government involves itself in these difficult choices"as government must, once it takes upon itself management of American health care.

The very idea of government-run health care conflicts with the American idea of a free society and the constitutional principles underlying it"the principles of individual rights and free markets. And from a practical perspective it makes no sense, given that our current health care system is the best in the world"even drawing patients from other advanced countries that have suffered by adopting the government-run model.

But if one begins with the idea that health care reform to reduce costs should be guided by the principles of economic and political liberty, what would such reform look like? Four changes to the current system come immediately to mind.

One, we should equalize the tax treatment of people paying for health care by ending the current discrimination against those who don't get health insurance from their jobs"in other words, everyone paying for health care should receive the same tax benefits.

Two, we need high-risk insurance pools in the states so that those with pre-existing conditions can obtain coverage that is not prohibitively expensive, and so that costs in non-high-risk pools are stabilized. To see the value of this, consider a pool of 200 people in which six have pre-existing heart disease or cancer. Rates for everyone will be through the roof. But if the six are placed in a high-risk pool and ensured coverage at an affordable rate, the risk profile of the larger pool is stabilized and coverage for the remaining 194 people is driven down.

Three, we need to unlock existing health care monopolies by letting people purchase health insurance across state lines"just as they do car insurance and other goods and services. This is a simple and obvious way to reduce costs.

Four, we need to establish transparency in terms of costs and quality of health care. In Milwaukee, an MRI can cost between $400 and $4,000, and a bypass surgery between $4,700 and $100,000. Unless the consumer is able to compare prices and quality of services"and unless he has an incentive to base choices on that information, as he does in purchasing other goods and services"there is not really a free market. It would go a long way to solve our health care problems to recreate one.

These four measures would empower consumers and force providers"insurers, doctors, and hospitals"to compete against each other for business. This works in other sectors of our economy, and it will work with health care.

So why can't we agree on them? The answer is that the current health care debate is not really about how we can most effectively bring down costs. It is a debate less about policy than about ideology. It is a debate over whether we should reform health care in a way compatible with our Constitution and our free society, or whether we should abandon our free market economic model for a full-fledged European-style social welfare state. This, I believe, is the true goal of those promoting government-run health care.

If we go down this path, creating entitlement after entitlement and promising benefits that can never be delivered, America will become like the European Union: a welfare state where most people pay few or no taxes while becoming dependent on government benefits; where tax reduction is impossible because more people have a stake in welfare than in producing wealth; where high unemployment is a way of life and the spirit of risk-taking is smothered by webs of regulation.

America today is not as far from this tipping point as we might think. While exact and precise measures cannot be made, there are estimates that in 2004, 20 percent of households in the U.S. were receiving about 75 percent of their income from the federal government, and that another 20 percent were receiving nearly 40 percent of their income from federal programs. All in all, about 60 percent of U.S. households were receiving more government benefits and services, measured in dollars, than they were paying back in taxes. It has also been estimated that President Obama's first budget alone raises this level of “net dependency” to 70 percent.

Looked at in this way, I see health care reform of the kind promoted by the Obama administration and congressional leaders as part of a crusade against the American idea. This is a dramatic charge, but the only alternative is that they are ignorant of the consequences of their proposed programs. The national health care exchange created by their legislation, together with its massive subsidies for middle-income earners, would represent the greatest expansion of the welfare state in our country in a generation"and possibly in history. According to recent analysis, the plan would provide subsidies that average a little less than 20 percent of the income of people earning up to 400 percent of the Federal Poverty Level. In other words, as many as 110 million Americans could claim this new entitlement within a few years of its implementation. In addition to the immediate massive increase in dependency this would bring on, the structure of the subsidies"whereby they fade out as income rises"would impose a marginal tax penalty that would act as a disincentive to work, increasing dependency even more.

And before I conclude, allow me to clear up a misperception about insurance exchanges: it makes absolutely no difference whether we have 50 state exchanges rather than a federal exchange, as long as the federal government is where the subsidies for consumers will be located. In other words, despite what some seem to believe, both the House and the Senate versions of health care reform set up a system in which, if you are eligible and you want a break on your insurance premium, it is the federal government that will provide it while telling you what kind of insurance you have to buy. In this sense, the idea of state exchanges instead of a federal exchange is a distinction without a difference.

* * *
Americans take pride in self-government, which entails providing for their own well-being and the well-being of their families in a free society. In exchange for this, the promoters of government-run health care would make them passive subjects, dependent on handouts and far more concerned about security than liberty. At the heart of the conflict over heath care reform, as I said at the beginning, are two incompatible understandings of America: one is based on the principles of progressivism, and would place more and more aspects of our lives under the administration of unelected “experts” in federal bureaucracies; the other sees America as a society of free individuals under a Constitution that severely limits what the federal government can rightfully do.

We have seen many times over the past 100 years that the American people tend to be resistant to the progressive view of how we should reform our system of government"and I believe we are seeing this again today.

Americans retain the Founders' view that a government that seeks to go beyond its high but limited constitutional role of securing equal rights and establishing free markets is not progressive at all in the literal sense of that word"rather it is reactionary. Such a government seeks to privilege some Americans at the expense of others"which is precisely what the American Revolution was fought to prevent.

Americans understand that the problems facing our health care system today, real as they are, can be addressed without nationalizing one-sixth of the American economy and moving us past the tipping point toward a European-style social welfare state. They know that we can solve these problems while at the same time remaining a free society and acting consistently with the principles that have made us the greatest and most prosperous nation on earth. It is our duty now as their representatives to come together and do so.

0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Thu 15 Apr, 2010 08:17 am


What did the voter know about Obama before they voted for him?

A conversation with Tom Brokaw
0 Replies
 
 

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