Obama '08?

[quote="MASSAGAT"
He (Cyclops) thinks that if he quotes from one of his classes run by a smelly, dirt bagging ex-hippie, that is all that is needed.

[/quote]

Yall have to agree, regardless of your political leaning, that this thread is always good for a lot of laughs.
When I was in college I found that the English professors came closer to Massagat's description.

Ignoramuses advertise their ignorance by attacking the source of an opinion, because they are too incompetent to formulate a rational critique of the opinion itself.

Cyclops, what you call a useless theory is a cold hard fact about the basic central theme of Nazism, on which most of the other points hinge upon and are related to, that you don't have the courage to face. And by the way, are you so childish as to resort to gutter language to lash out at those that do not buy your particular brand of leftie mindset? Come on, can't you do better than that?

Would you agree that "smelly, dirt bagging, ex-hippie" professors is gutter language. Or must a post include the f-word to qualify?

I would judge "smelly, dirt bagging, ex-hippie" as being more graphic and perhaps more descriptive than I would say it was gutter language. I think the choice of words could be better however, as I do not always endorse Masagat's descriptions.

What you had explained to you - persistently and patiently - in the other thread, but ignore, is the fact that the central theme of Nazism is to support whatever policies one must in order to seize power and create a dictatorship. The Nazi party supported Liberal causes when it was convenient and Conservative ones when it was convenient. They never gave a **** about the contradictions between their rhetoric and their actions, because they were mostly too busy invading other countries and attempting to drive Jews out of Germany - a policy that was supported by the populace at the time to a large degree.

Your attempts to paint their behavior as having anything to do with modern Liberalism is a farce, Okie. This is what both Liberals and Conservatives here tried to point out to you in that thread, and you persistently ignored.

Be honest: did you sit down and start researching the Nazi regime in Germany, and discover your theory for yourself? No. You started with a conclusion and have been casting about for evidence. You (and John Jay Ray) do this by taking a few lines out of context from various documents and by ignoring any evidence which counters your theory. It is amateurish and not compelling to anyone here.

Cycloptichorn

An opinion, but even in this statement you seem to downplay the existence ofa philosophy of their political agenda besides merely gaining power, which I think is totally and absolutely ridiculous, because every political movement has a philolosophy.

It is a farce only in your mind, because you deny every common denominator that exists, starting with a central one that I just pointed out, COMMON GOOD BEFOE INDIVIDUAL GOOD.


Absolutely wrong. I did in fact decide to research the question without having a conclusion, and surprisingly I found the conclusion to point leftward much stronger than I ever would have suspected. I had been also brainwashed to a degree by historians that had expressed the idea or false impression of Hitler being a right wing extremist of the worst kind. To be honest, it all started with my reading of the Time Life series of World War II a couple of years ago, and I extended my reading and research from there, and you know what, it all points leftward all the way. In fact, I believe anyone that approaches the subject without a bias will be compelled to reach the same conclusion that I did, that is if they have any intellectual honesty at all.

Duly noted, Okie. F**k is so easy to hurl out there. "Smelly, dirt bagging, ex-hippie" is much better creative writing. I would have tossed in rotten teeth and bad breath if that were something I would have written to describe Cyclop's brethren in Berkeley.
Or would that have been too much?

I must protest, the dental care in this city is excellent indeed

Cycloptichorn

Damn, what an idiot you are. Do you honestly believe that the Nazis believed in the 'common good?' Every single one of their actions shows that they did not. All they believed in was power and the application of fear as a lever.

Cycloptichorn

Most of your terms are pretty much needless to a civil debate here to discuss facts.

Just curious, rjb, would you admit or recognize the obvious, that the principle "COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD" is highly associated with leftist, communist, or Marxist philosophy, as opposed to that of the rights and responsibilities of individuals as they pursue self interest in an atmosphere of freedom, free markets, and capitalism? I realize you are a Democratic voter, at least most of the time I am guessing, but I also take you as a fairly honest individual, a business owner also, with some understanding that ultra liberalism is perhaps not the best way to utopia. In other words, I think you might be a realistic person, not at all a leftist idealogue as I think cyclops is an example of.

I did not write their beliefs or policies, cyclops. I merely have taken what the historical record is. I suppose you might also argue that Obama does not believe what he says either, is that right? It makes no difference what people say or write down, it makes no difference what political party platforms write down and publish, only the holier than thou CYCLOPS knows what they actually believed, even if it was 80 years ago, right cyclops? Only the Berkeley crowd can interpret history for us.

I agree that using the fund is a major problem....but the current seniors voted for people who chose to do that too. The fact remains that seniors have been borrowing and spending money since before we were born and have chosen, REPEATEDLY, to vote for people with no intention of paying it back. They continue to vote for these people. They continue to vote for people who insist on pushing the bill through the generations.

They will get what's coming to them, and then some for their arrogance that someone else will pay for them, and fix their environmental mess.

People, over the last 50-70 years have really fucked us Cyclops, both financially and environmentally.

They'll get fucked right back, and arguably, rightfully so.

Just as an aside how much do you pay for health care? I am over 70 and not too long ago I posted how much a dead beat like me and my wife paid a year for health care. How much do you pay?

Okie- Cyclops apparently never reads anything but "The Nation" or Moveon.org.

He wrote as an answer to you:


Damn, what an idiot you are. Do you honestly believe that the Nazis believed in the 'common good?' Every single one of their actions shows that they did not. All they believed in was power and the application of fear as a lever.

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How does the Cyclopian one know that? Where is his evidence? The only thing that is clear from Cyclops's post is a strained, almost excremental pseudo-intellectualis with NO evidence.

What did Hitler believe? Did he believe in the "common good" as HE SAW IT?
If you asked Nazis, they would say yes. He believed in the common good.
If you read the words of Adolf Hitler, you might believe that the Nazis believed in the Common Good.

What did Hitler say? Why, if you changed a couple of words, you might think that our President was speaking:

When Hitler became chancellor, he was asked whether his first priority was jobs.

He answered:
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Wholly! I am thinking first of those in Germany who are in despair and who have been in despair for three years...what does anything else matter.
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Okie- It is clear that Cyclops is not a real scholar

Okie wrote:

the principle "COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD" is highly associated with leftist, communist, or Marxist philosophy, as opposed to that of the rights and responsibilities of individuals as they pursue self interest in an atmosphere of freedom, free markets, and capitalism.
end of quote
Of course--Cyclops is not aware that there is such a thing as "liberal fascism". Marx wrote: From each according to his abilities: to each according to his needs.

That is the main reason why the Soviet Union collapsed. When there is no chance( unless you were among a couple of Million Communist Party Members) to progress in your work, amass savings and improve your living conditions, you do not work hard. You do only as much as you need to do. That is why the Five Year Plans in the Soviet Union did not work. That is why Stalin had to send Millions to work and die in the Gulags. People rebel against government totalitarianism. Obama is finding that out! "

Cyclops wrote:(In an answer to Okie)

What you had explained to you - persistently and patiently - in the other thread, but ignore, is the fact that the central theme of Nazism is to support whatever policies one must in order to seize power and create a dictatorship.

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Probably true!

But what the Cyclopian one will not agree to is that

"the central theme of Obama is to support whatever policies one must in order to seize power and create a dictatorship"
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Evidence?

Obama would love to suppress all commentary that is not worshipful of his eminence. He said:

"Well, I think that when you listen to Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck, it's pretty apparent, and it's troublesome, but keep in mind that there have been periods in American history where this kind of vitriol comes out," Obama said. "It happens often when you've got an economy that is making
people more anxious and people are feeling like there is a lot of change that needs to take place. But that's not the vast majority of Americans. I think the vast majority of Americans know that we're trying hard, that I want what's best for the country."

Would Obama agree with the tactics of the Nazis? The Nazis controlled the newspapers almost completely. Indeed, the German Propaganda Ministers met with the heads of the leading newspapers in Berlin and told them what should not be reported and how to slant the remaining news.

Since Cyclops seems to be ignorant about the roots of Nazism, I will quote from Jonah Goldberg's fine study--"Liberal Fascism"--P. 70-71

'This is the monumental fact of the Nazi rise to power that has been slowly airbrushed from our collective memories The Nazis campaigned as SOCIALISTS.
Yes, they were also Nationalists, which in the context of the thirties was considered a rightist position, but this was at a time when the "internationalism" of the Soviet Union defined ALL nationalism as right-wing. Surely, we have learned from the parade on offer in the twentieth century that nationalism isn't inherently right wing --unless we're prepared to Stalin, Castro, Arafat, Chavez, Guevara, and Pol Pot right wingers...Right wing SOCIALISTS are still Socialists."

Ican wrote in response to Cyclops:

Ignoramuses advertise their ignorance by attacking the source of an opinion, because they are too incompetent to formulate a rational critique of the opinion itself.

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Exactly--Cyclops repeats his mantra--You are wrong--But NEVER gives evidence showing why a post is wrong. Are we supposed to believe that the Cyclopian one has a special source of truth only available to the gurus in Berkeley? Berkeley has been long regarded as one of the most screwed up schools in the USA.

Cyclops wrote:

One could speak about this in detail, but in brief my take is that it’s totally unworkable. The whole reason Medicare was put in place in the first place, rather than just hiking Social Security benefits, is that the individual insurance market doesn’t work and it especially doesn’t work for senior citizens. As I observed in a little-read December 29 post, this would change if congress passed the Obama health care plan. If Obama’s efforts to create a viable regulatory framework in which individuals can buy private health insurance (a) pass congress, and (b) turn out to work well and be popular, then you can imagine a version of Ryan’s plan being put into place. But in the absence of that kind of reform, I just don’t see how you can do this, which is presumably why the implementation is delayed all the way to 2021 which helps Ryan avoid needing to think about implementation details.

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What Nonsense!--This lunatic scheme-Obamacare- will work only if:

l. Individuals can buy private insurance. Cyclops is too busy reading left wing screeds to notice that people like Obama's "bro" in Massachusetts--the radical Deval Patrick, governor of that state--

On Thursday, Patrick's insurance regulators rejected 235 of 274 insurer requests for premium increases for individuals and small business over the coming year...At a Democratic National Committee fund raiser Thursday night, Obama was effusive about the job Patrick was doing. The President said that Obamacare would "end the worst practices of the insurance industry" SUCH AS DARING TO EXIST.
But, if the shareholders of the Insurance Companies( millions of middle class people have these companies in their 401k portfolios) want decent returns, they will soon learn that the companies cannot provide those returns, or, indeed, adequate funding for Health Care. Then the Insurance Companies fold up.

And what takes their place? Guess! DC Bureaucrat Morons in the new version of Obama's Health Care Plan(modeled after our English and Canadian friends.

2. Cyclops is completely detached from reality. He really believes that the Congress will now change what they have been doing almost yearly--that is--rescinding the cuts to Medicare they have promised. Without those cuts, Obamacare's cost will lead to bankruptcy of the US and a possible loss of our AAA rating!

3. Cyclops has obviously never read about the incredibly poor service from the Health Plans of England and Canada. Waiting lists, rationing of care, Death Panels( did you say "death panels"?) Let's revise that--When it becomes too costly to keep a person alive for another year or two, the English Health System as well as the Canadian System rule that the expense is too onerous. Don't call it Death Panels--call it creative Health Economics.