Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Fri 19 Feb, 2010 02:08 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

[How do you know they just didn't dislike the candidate? This carries at least as much weight as the policies involved.
Cycloptichorn


I think the short answer is that heither of you knows the answer beyond doubt. However the weight of the evidence shows that broad political questions were at least a major factor in the outcome.


Really? What evidence would that be? Specifically, please; I'm not interested in your opinion of the Dems or their policies, or your opinion of what other people's opinions are, but of the actual evidence that shows that local voters indicated that this was a major factor in the outcome.

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 19 Feb, 2010 02:15 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Come off it Cyclo ! Are you willing to accept the burden of proving that local issues were certainly dominant? Of course the defects in Coakley's campaign are clear - in retrospect. That is always the case with losers. Of course there are national political issues that influenced the registered independent voters who so influenced the outcome. How do you propose to draw the line between these two influences with certainty?

You rather childishly (in my view) attempt (unsuccessfully) to impose standards on others here that you fail to meet yourself.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Fri 19 Feb, 2010 03:29 pm
Quote:
EXECUTIVE ORDERS AND "RECONCILIATION" bypass Congressional checks and balances! Can we wait for 2010 elections?

The president's proposal, which is still being written, will be posted on the Internet by Monday morning, senior administration officials and Congressional aides told the New York Times.

By piggybacking the legislation onto a budget bill, Democrats would be able to advance their HealthCare Bill with a simple majority of just 51 votes, averting a Republican filibuster in the Senate!

The White House signaled Thursday that "an aggressive, all-Democrat strategy for overhauling the nation's health system remains a serious option," even as Obama invites Republicans to next week's televised summit to seek possible compromises.

"It will be a reconciliation bill," the Times quoted a Democrat aide as saying. "If Republicans don't come with any substantial offers, this is what we would do."

The administration's stance could set the stage for a political showdown, with Democrats struggling to enact the president's top domestic priority and Republicans trying to block what many conservatives see as government overreach.

Obama's plan, like the House and Senate bills, would expand coverage to some 30 million+, require most Americans to carry insurance or face financial penalties, and block insurers from denying coverage to people with pre-existing medical conditions, the Times reported.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Fri 19 Feb, 2010 03:35 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:
Obama Administration Denies Public Access to Fannie and Freddie Documents

Judicial Watch has been digging hard into the scandals behind the collapse of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and their role in helping trigger the global financial crisis. A key component of this investigation involves the role political corruption played in the failure of adequate congressional oversight and the catastrophic collapse of these "government sponsored entities" in 2008. That's why we filed a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit against the Obama administration to get hold of documents related to Fannie and Freddie's campaign contributions over the last several election cycles.

We figure since American taxpayers are on the hook for trillions of dollars, potentially including $400 billion alone for Fannie and Freddie, we deserve to know how and why this financial collapse occurred and who in Washington, D.C. is responsible. Unfortunately the Obama administration disagrees.

Just last month the Federal Housing Finance Agency (FHFA), the agency responsible for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, responded to our FOIA lawsuit by telling us that all of the documents we seek are not "FOIA-able"!

Here's the exact language the Obama agency used in its recent court filing: "...Any records created by or held in the custody of the Enterprises reflecting their political campaign contributions or policies, stipulations and requirements concerning campaign contributions necessarily are private corporate documents. They are not 'agency records' subject to disclosure under FOIA."

So there you have it. You and I are paying the tab for the collapse of Fannie and Freddie, but we are not allowed to ask any questions about why it happened. The Obama administration is saying, in effect, "None of your business."

This is an outrage!

Obama administration officials and their lawyers can argue until they are blue in the face that Fannie and Freddie are not federal agencies. But their reasoning is straight out of Alice in Wonderland. Remember how all of this went down?
ican711nm
 
  1  
Fri 19 Feb, 2010 03:47 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:
Hello All---
This evening [2/18] I received the following message from a conservative reporter......
________________________________________

Hi there!
I am a Conservative Blogger and I am working on the Joseph Stack story for Right Pundits - several of the media outlets have made the accusation that Stack was a member of the Tea Party and even the Austin Tea Party. I would like to know if you would like to make a statement about it that I can include in my story.

________________________________________
Here was my response:

I can say with affirmation that Joseph Stack was not a member of the Austin Tea Party nor was he a member of The Tea Party Movement. Within Mr. Stack's own writing, one can see clearly that are no shared values or principles with the Tea Party.

After reading Mr. Stack’s February 18, 2010 statement, it is evident he supported anarchy. The Tea Party movement does not advocate anarchy. The Tea Party movement believes in our founding principles so eloquently written in our Constitution.

Mr. Stack repeatedly showed disdain for free-market principles in his statement. The Tea Party movement knows that every American success is rooted in the freedom of our capitalist principles.

Mr. Stack did not believe in paying taxes. The Tea Party movement believes in taxes for the defense of Our Great Nation; however like the majority of Americans - be they Democrat, Republican or Independent - we all believe in reform of the current tax structure. We only differ on the type of reform that is best.

Mr. Stack saw churches as corrupt entities and called them “monsters of organized religion.” He spoke of being “brainwashed to believe that there is freedom” and declared “violence is the only answer." The Tea Party movement believes in God, and we know the valuable contributions our churches make each day to our communities across this land.

Thousands of Tea Parties have been held nationwide, a million Tea Partiers marched in our nation's capital, and not a single act of violence was ever committed by a Tea Party supporter.

There is a common thread that ties every Tea Party across this country to the Austin Tea Party, and that thread is our eternal optimism in America. Tea Partiers believe in the American Spirit, the American Dream and the freedom of the people to peacefully assemble and use the powers granted in the Constitution to restore our nation. Mr. Stack was void of optimism. It is ironic that some members of the media are void of integrity and would try to make an association where one does not exist, as spelled out by Mr. Stack himself.

Thank you,

Heather Liggett
Stay at home mom and Austin Texas Tea Party Organizer

Ours is the only country deliberately founded on a good idea. ~John Gunther

0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 19 Feb, 2010 04:48 pm
The tone & content of President Obama's remarks in his recent Las Vegas event again suggests he may be planning to use the forthcoming discussions with Republicans over health care as a pretext for declaring they are unwilling to negotiate (on his terms), and use this as a pretext for forcing some version of the House/Senate bills through Congress under the Reconciliation process.

It is an intriguing possibility on several fronts;
=> Will the Democrats be able to assemble enough of their own votes to do this under the current conditions?
=> What might be the public reaction to the attempt?
=> Will the effort succeed, and, if so, what might be the consequences in November?

My impression is that the President is probably inclined to try, but that he may not have the votes in his own party to succeed. Indeed the posturing may be directed mostly at frightened Democrat legislators.

Irishk
 
  2  
Fri 19 Feb, 2010 05:06 pm
@georgeob1,
Doesn't the House have to pass the Senate's version of the bill before they can go on to reconciliation? That's the one with the kickbacks, etc. I guess they could promise to take all of that out later and get votes that way?
georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 19 Feb, 2010 05:11 pm
@Irishk,
Yes. In addition conceivably the Senate could pass the House version. I suspect both possibilities have been considered and that both would face serious obstacles even among Democrats.

Obama may also merely be posturing to satisfy the zealous "progressives" in his party to assure them that he "tried" -- using the method he appears to rely on most.... speeches.
okie
 
  1  
Fri 19 Feb, 2010 05:13 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Come off it Cyclo ! Are you willing to accept the burden of proving that local issues were certainly dominant? Of course the defects in Coakley's campaign are clear - in retrospect. That is always the case with losers. Of course there are national political issues that influenced the registered independent voters who so influenced the outcome. How do you propose to draw the line between these two influences with certainty?

You rather childishly (in my view) attempt (unsuccessfully) to impose standards on others here that you fail to meet yourself.

George, I think this may be an example of a liberal mind just not being able to face the fact that their views and policies are at fault. They will cling to the idea that quality of campaign or personality is at fault. After all, their policies and beliefs are always right. It goes along with the arrogant leftist mindset that no other philosophy or beliefs could possibly be right.

This is an interesting phenomena being demonstrated right here on this forum, because I think there are alot of ultra socialists and Marxists that persist in believing their philosophy has to work, if only the people in charge could get it right "next time." There is always a next time, and never an admission that the philosophy is flawed or simply does not work. They refuse to accept history's proof that it does not work very well.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 19 Feb, 2010 05:15 pm
@okie,
No. I think Cyclo's faults are his own; and not the inevitable consequence of his political views.

There are some folks on the right here who use some of these tactics too.
okie
 
  0  
Fri 19 Feb, 2010 05:25 pm
@georgeob1,
I think there is evidence that certain kinds of personalities gravitate to liberalism, George. Why do you think Hollywood is overwhelmingly liberal?

I think there is good evidence of the fact that liberals are groupees, that is their nature and the way they think, and they just think there is no other opinion that could be right besides theirs. This is in contrast with the conservative mind that believes in individual rights and responsibilities, and thinking as individuals. I have thought for a long time that this phenomena helps explain why Republicans seem to have a tougher time holding together coalitions in Congress. And the defections in the Democratic ranks are due to more individualistic or conservative members of the Democratic Party, not the liberal ones. The liberals fall into lockstep like a bunch of robots. I think the phenomena also explains why the Tea Party movement is going to have a tough time holding together as a unified force within the Republican Party.

When McCain lost, I think it was mostly because of his policies, although he did not run a great campaign. But he himself tried to play up the idea of reaching across the aisle, being a moderate, and that is what mainly got him beaten in my opinion. It was his policies and stands on issues. In Coakley's case, cyclops refuses to believe it is about issues, but he and other libs want to believe she just ran a lousy campaign was the only reason she lost.
parados
 
  2  
Fri 19 Feb, 2010 05:33 pm
@okie,
Quote:
I have thought for a long time that this phenomena helps explain why Republicans seem to have a tougher time holding together coalitions in Congress.

ROFLMAO..

yeah.. that must be why the Democrats passed health care reform when they had 60 votes.

Your ability to think is severely impaired okie. I think it must be a conservative thing. They seem to like to pretend the world is one way in spite of all evidence to the contrary.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Fri 19 Feb, 2010 05:35 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
Obama may also merely be posturing to satisfy the zealous "progressives" in his party to assure them that he "tried" -- using the method he appears to rely on most.... speeches.


I'm inclined to agree; he is a great orator.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 19 Feb, 2010 05:46 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

I'm inclined to agree; he is a great orator.


He is certainly very good, and very persuasive. However, I'm not sure it will stand the test of time for greatness.

He has an uncanny ability to leave most listeners with room to believe that he agrees with and supports their own aspirations. However his expressed ideas are too often vague and indefinite, and his subsequent actions too often contrary to the implications he suggests. It doesn't appear to wear well, except with the true believers.
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Fri 19 Feb, 2010 07:03 pm
Good evening. 3 months ago I started a thread:
Oh, No! Election Day is Tuesday, November 2nd, 2010.

I blew the dust away today and wrote about 3 Senate races in which long-term incumbent Democrats may, or may not be, in trouble. Wisconsin, Washington and California.
Please join us there to predict how the mid-term elections could/should turn out.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Sat 20 Feb, 2010 02:31 pm
I suspect the forthcoming televised Health Care discussion, presumably led by the President and attended by an audience of selected legislators from both Houses of Congress may be a very interesting thing, not so much for the very likely predictable blather that will come from both sides, but for the political tactics and maneuvering involved.

Key Senate Democrats, apparently led by Sen. Chuck Schumer of NY, are already attempting to organize a legislative coup by trying to force the bill through in a reconciliation process - something that I believe may theoretically be possible but is in fact practically impossible given other existing Senate rules and practices AND the likelihood that some Democrat Senators will not vote for this process. Given this implied threat, how will the Republicans respond? Under these circumstances is there any possibility that a real coordinated effort will transpire - from either side? I think not.

Sadly, this appears to be merely a staged political gambit, possibly designed to appease his most rabid supporters by a President and Democrat leaders in Congress, who appear chronically unable to rise above the internal politics of a failing political party.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Sat 20 Feb, 2010 02:50 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Sadly, this appears to be merely a staged political gambit, possibly designed to appease his most rabid supporters by a President and Democrat leaders in Congress, who appear chronically unable to rise above the internal politics of a failing political party.


more tying to get something into law that they can call a win. Problem is the the Dems have already so dirtied themselves with back room dealing and dishonesty that there is no salvage operation that can work. They need to break off, say that they have gotten the message from the voters, and then take a political reform tack. I dont see it happening, they are too wrapped up in their Washington game playing to spend the time reconnecting to the citizens, hell, they dont seem to yet realize that they need to do so.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Sat 20 Feb, 2010 03:38 pm
@georgeob1,
Reconciliation is not a 'legislative coup.' What an idiotic thing to say. I'm certain that you didn't call it that when the Republicans used the exact same procedure to pass Bush's tax cuts. The Dems also don't need all their senators to vote for it; that's the entire point. They can give cover to their more conservative members and still pass the bill.

I submit that you don't really understand the rules of the Senate, if you think that it can't be used. Or perhaps you can explain why it cannot be used?

Anyway, from The Hill -

Quote:
Democrats will finish their health reform efforts within the next two months by using a majority-vote maneuver in the Senate, Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) said.

Reid said that congressional Democrats would likely opt for a procedural tactic in the Senate allowing the upper chamber to make final changes to its healthcare bill with only a simple majority of senators, instead of the 60 it takes to normally end a filibuster.
"I've had many conversations this week with the president, his chief of staff, and Speaker Pelosi," Reid said during an appearance Friday evening on "Face to Face with Jon Ralston" in Nevada. "And we're really trying to move forward on this."

The majority leader said that while Democrats have a number of options, they would likely use the budget reconciliation process to pass a series of fixes to the first healthcare bill passed by the Senate in November. These changes are needed to secure votes for passage of that original Senate bill in the House.

"We'll do a relatively small bill to take care of what we've already done," Reid said, affirming that Democrats would use the reconciliation process. "We're going to have that done in the next 60 days."

The move would allow Democrats to essentially go it alone on health reform, especially after losing their filibuter-proof majority in the Senate after Sen. Scott Brown's (R) special election victory in Massachusetts...

...Reid said that the final Democratic bill is likely to be unveiled Monday night.


The Democrats know that failure to pass a bill will kill them this Fall. They also know that the public wants many elements of the bill, even if it isn't perfect. Furthermore, they know that people don't give a **** what procedures that are used in the Senate; the idea that there will be some sort of backlash over the use of reconciliation is farcical.

Any Republican who calls the Democrats a 'failing' political party has serious problems with both history and math, by the way.

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  1  
Sat 20 Feb, 2010 03:41 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Are you predicting that the Democrats will attempt to pass one of the existing bills through the reconciliation process?

Do you also predict that it will succeed?

As I recall, you also predicted that the President would sign a Health care bill, with a government option, by October 2009.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Sat 20 Feb, 2010 03:47 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Are you predicting that the Democrats will attempt to pass one of the existing bills through the reconciliation process?


Did you read the article? Reid said exactly that - that they will pass a fix for the current Senate bill under Reconciliation, to make it more acceptable for the House.

Quote:
Do you also predict that it will succeed?


I think it has a good chance, yes, for the reasons I provided earlier.

Quote:
As I recall, you also predicted that the President would sign a Health care bill, with a government option, by October 2009.


Yes, I recall that as well. And it turns out I was wrong. But the issue is not dead - though I also seem to recall you declaring on more then one occasion that the issue was in fact dead. So neither of us seem to have a perfect accuracy rating on this issue.

Cycloptichorn
 

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