Irishk
 
  3  
Tue 16 Feb, 2010 08:57 pm
IMO neither side is immune to hypocrisy (there's been plenty on both sides) and it's a large part of the reason they are held in such low esteem by the public. Having said that, lawmakers often vote on legislation according to the wishes of the majority of their constituents and would be remiss if they didn't vigorously defend their positions either opposing or favoring a bill accordingly.

The fact remains that the people being represented still must share the burden by paying for part of the debt -- we're all taxpayers.

But, yeah, the Republicans must know that they are replaceable, too.



0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Wed 17 Feb, 2010 04:18 pm
Obama and the dems, and many of the left leaning people on here, have talked about raising taxes on the rich.

Well, lets look at one state that did that, and see what happened to their budget...

http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf/2010/02/nj_loses_70b_in_wealth_over_fo.html

Quote:
More than $70 billion in wealth left New Jersey between 2004 and 2008 as affluent residents moved elsewhere, according to a report released Wednesday that marks a swift reversal of fortune for a state once considered the nation’s wealthiest.


(snip)

Notice this paragraph...

Quote:
Wealthy residents are a key driver for everything from job creation and consumer spending to the real estate market and the state budget, said Jim Hughes, dean of the Edward J. Bloustein School of Planning and Public Policy at Rutgers University. In New Jersey, the top 1 percent of taxpayers pay more than 40 percent of the state’s income tax, he said


Read the entire article, its quite interesting, and actually raises a few good questions about what will happen to the nations economy if the same thing happens nationwide.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Wed 17 Feb, 2010 06:12 pm
@mysteryman,
In these times it's hard to feel sorry for the mobile rich folks leaving New Jersey.

However, the underlying point here is that government depends on the economic activity and wealth created by private entrepreneurs for its own revenues. When we finally get to the point that the entire economy consists of (unionized) government employees, we will realize we can't pay for it all merely by taxing a portion of their salaries.

Wealth and economic energy seek lower taxes, and , like it or not, we exist in a competitive global market for taxation. Just as New Jersey loses to neighboring states with lower taxes, this country stands to lose economic power to other nations with lower taxes.
roger
 
  1  
Wed 17 Feb, 2010 06:18 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:


When we finally get to the point that the entire economy consists of (unionized) government employees, we will realize we can't pay for it all merely by taxing a portion of their salaries.



Well then, we'll just have to raise their salaries so we get enough tax money to pay them. I shouldn't have to mention something so obvious.
okie
 
  0  
Wed 17 Feb, 2010 06:20 pm
@roger,
Huh? I hope you are kidding, because if you aren't, and you are an example of decision makers in this country, we are in very very serious trouble, worse than I ever dreamed.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Wed 17 Feb, 2010 06:22 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Wealth and economic energy seek lower taxes, and , like it or not, we exist in a competitive global market for taxation. Just as New Jersey loses to neighboring states with lower taxes, this country stands to lose economic power to other nations with lower taxes.


we know the solution to that problem...it is called Tariffs.
georgeob1
 
  2  
Wed 17 Feb, 2010 06:40 pm
@hawkeye10,
And they work too.... in an imaginary universe in which the injured trading partners don't retaliate and in which people remain competitive in the gace of barriers designed to protect them from competition.
realjohnboy
 
  2  
Wed 17 Feb, 2010 06:46 pm
@georgeob1,
Is their anyone naive enough to believe that tariffs work?
okie
 
  0  
Wed 17 Feb, 2010 06:52 pm
@realjohnboy,
I wondered that too. I was surprised hawkeye would even suggest such a thing.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 17 Feb, 2010 06:54 pm
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy wrote:

Is their anyone naive enough to believe that tariffs work?


Tariffs are not perfect solutions but can contribute to the desired effect.

The idea that the rich will completely flee the US due to 'high taxes' is a little laughable. Where, pray tell, are these people going to go? What low-tax haven exists outside the US that those who grew up here would dream of living in? As far as I can tell, nearly every other country in the world has HIGHER taxes then we do....

Cycloptichorn
realjohnboy
 
  2  
Wed 17 Feb, 2010 06:58 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I may have mis-read things. I thought the issue under discussion was trade tariffs. Not income taxes.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Wed 17 Feb, 2010 08:31 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Your idea isn't working well in New Jersey... or in California for that matter.

Most of the US textile and steel industries has moved to Asia. A good deal of our manufacturing has gone to Mexico and, to a lesser extent Brazil. Indian companies are taking over our IT industry. Electronics manufacturing left long ago - the last surviving company, Motorola is being broken up and sold off in pieces now.

In all of these cases it was lower labor costs and lower taxes that did the trick - all accelerated by intransigent labor unions that short-sightedly resisted productivity-enhancing investments and improvements, by companies, struggling to survive here.

It turns out that they have little difficulty in leaving in sufficient numbers to wipe out the tax base on which you pin your hopes.

By the way ... did you read my comments about the Gallup poll data a couple of pages back. It turns out your claims were contrary to the facts you cited.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Wed 17 Feb, 2010 08:34 pm
@realjohnboy,
Quote:
Is their anyone naive enough to believe that tariffs work


What is working? I want to promote quality of life, not economies, not the accumulation of wealth. From my prospective tariffs are proven tools.
realjohnboy
 
  2  
Wed 17 Feb, 2010 08:42 pm
@hawkeye10,
What goods coming into the U.S. would you like to see tariffs put on? And what manufactured goods that we export from the U.S. would you be willing to see other countries put tariffs on to make our stuff more expensive?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 17 Feb, 2010 08:46 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Your idea isn't working well in New Jersey... or in California for that matter.


New Jersey and CA have tariffs?

People are not leaving NJ and CA for other countries, so my point holds firm.

Quote:

Most of the US textile and steel industries has moved to Asia. A good deal of our manufacturing has gone to Mexico and, to a lesser extent Brazil. Indian companies are taking over our IT industry. Electronics manufacturing left long ago - the last surviving company, Motorola is being broken up and sold off in pieces now.

In all of these cases it was lower labor costs and lower taxes that did the trick - all accelerated by intransigent labor unions that short-sightedly resisted productivity-enhancing investments and improvements, by companies, struggling to survive here.

It turns out that they have little difficulty in leaving in sufficient numbers to wipe out the tax base on which you pin your hopes.


Yes, the greedy will do everything they can to exploit low labor costs for as long as humanly possible. I have no desire to support their greed, even if it does hurt our tax base for them to take the jobs away.

But, what about you, George? Are you going to move to Brazil, or Mexico, or India - for the low taxes? That was my point. As long as we allow companies to exploit low labor costs abroad while letting their higher-ups enjoy American standards of living, we will have problems.

Quote:
By the way ... did you read my comments about the Gallup poll data a couple of pages back. It turns out your claims were contrary to the facts you cited.


I don't believe that they were in fact contrary; I wonder if you went to the correct link?

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 17 Feb, 2010 08:47 pm
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy wrote:

What goods coming into the U.S. would you like to see tariffs put on? And what manufactured goods that we export from the U.S. would you be willing to see other countries put tariffs on to make our stuff more expensive?


Um, is this not already the case with the majority of our non-food goods?

Cycloptichorn
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Wed 17 Feb, 2010 08:49 pm
@realjohnboy,
IDK, we would need to have a trade policy, and an economic development policy. I would certainly want to figure out what manufacturing abilities I wanted to preserve, and protect them with moderate tariffs. Not high enough to shut down competition but high enough that we did not lose the industry.

I am not big on trading, all of this moving stuff around does not make sense on an ecological soundness basis. I am also not big on encouraging consumption.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Wed 17 Feb, 2010 09:00 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I think you should go back and read the posts in question. I used the link you posted and the discrepancies are noted in my post.

I can (and have) invested money in other countries, where I can get a better, and more relaible return than here.

People are leaving NJ and California for lower tax states ... you are merely quibbling.

How do you differentiate between the greed of those whom you don't wish to support and the greed those who wish the government to tax others for their benefit, whom you apparently do support?

As long as we have freedom, greed and self interest will guide human choices. Would you like to suppress freedom?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Wed 17 Feb, 2010 09:03 pm
Quote:
While liberals were arguing about public plans and this or that, and while Obama was deep into inside dealmaking, the conservatives relentlessly made a straightforward public case based on a syllogism: The economy is a mess. Obama and the Democrats are for big government. Big government is responsible for the mess. Therefore the mess is the fault of Obama and the Big Government Democrats.

Simplistic and misleading? Absolutely. But if liberals and Obama are so smart, how did they -- or, if you prefer, "we" -- allow conservatives to make this argument so effectively? Why do the mainstream media give it so much credence?

Of course, I think the conservatives' argument is wrong. But at this point, I have to admire their daring and discipline. Moderate and progressive Democrats alike have eight months before this fall's elections to change the terms of the debate and prove they can govern. Otherwise, they'll be washed out by a tidal wave.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/17/AR2010021703506.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Just another way of saying that the Democratic leadership is out of touch with the people, as most of the a2k Democratic blowhards are. Failure will reform them, pain has a purpose.
roger
 
  1  
Wed 17 Feb, 2010 09:06 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

Huh? I hope you are kidding, because if you aren't, and you are an example of decision makers in this country, we are in very very serious trouble, worse than I ever dreamed.


1. That is sad.

2. We are.
0 Replies
 
 

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