cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 03:11 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
McG can't see how Bush launched Iraq war to pursue "global hegemony:"
Quote:


Source File: http://www.btlonline.org/ritter091903.ram
Former UN Weapons Inspector Charges Bush Launched Iraq War to Pursue Agenda of 'Global Hegemony'

Interview with Scott Ritter, former U.S. Marine and U.N. weapons inspector, conducted by Scott Harris: September 15, 2003

As violence continued to consume U.S.-occupied Iraq, President Bush addressed the nation on Sept. 7 to explain his administration's policies there and request $87 billion for the pacification and reconstruction of both Iraq and Afghanistan. Although the president conspicuously omitted any mention of the U.S. failure to capture Osama bin Laden or to locate any of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction used by his administration to justify its war, he maintained that Iraq was now the central front in the war against terrorism. As he has many times before, the president linked the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks against the U.S. to the toppled regime of Saddam Hussein, despite the lack of any evidence connecting Iraq with the al Qaeda network.


It didn't take Bush very long to initiate his war in Iraq, but there's always excuses as to why it took so long to help Americans in the Gulf states.
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 03:27 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Wouldn't the theory of evolution rather support a natural drive to global hegemony? How do you know which way up you are ci?

Are not the ordinary folks of the world yearning for Western global hegemony? Why do you wish to support wankers keeping them in poverty and denying them basic human dignity? A destiny assignment cannot be shirked because it is tough.
dyslexia
 
  1  
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 04:02 pm
@spendius,
exactly, I do believe Spendi is every bit s wise as Okie.
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 04:21 pm
@dyslexia,
Olga has this for a signature line dys--

Quote:
"I confess that countries are pieces on a chessboard upon which is being played out a great game for the domination of the world." - Lord Curzon, British viceroy of India, 1898


Is it the role of liberals to make it look as if the US doesn't play that game? The good cop role. If it is they are only kidding themselves. Mr Nice Guy doing his best to keep his oil consumption end up at a respectable angle.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 06:56 pm
@parados,
I never made any type of statement about how many busses New Orleans owns, so your media matters link is meaningless to the discussion.

As for the Snopes link, lets look at what the Snopes article says...

The photo IS legitimate.
It does show New Orleans school busses sitting parked after Katrina.

It also says that using the busses would have cost the LOCAL and STATE govts money.
It doesnt say anything about the federal govt paying for it.

So the busses could have been used, but they werent.
Why not, and how is Bush responsible for that decision?

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 07:58 pm
@spendius,
How does global hegemony fit into evolutionary theory? Was that part of Darwin's thesis? Funny, I missed that part.
okie
 
  -1  
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 08:39 pm
I don't know if this is on another thread or not, but nevertheless this directly relates to Obama's utter incompetence, which is in regard to Holdren trying terror suspects or enemy combatants in a civil court. I hear that Holdren was totally stumped when asked if he could cite one instance or precedent for doing this. That strikes me as utter incompetence for an AG, after all he supposedly made a decision to try the case in New York based upon some knowledge, precedent, or something.

Also, was the suspect read his rights, if not, the case could be thrown out, isn't that right? I am not a lawyer, but it seems like I have heard a few things, that being one of them. Also, statements by Obama have already prejudiced the case, how can any juror be found that has not been already prejudiced by prior information, this being compounded by Obama virtually declaring his guilt. And where do we get a jury of his peers, do we go round up a few Taliban or Al Qaeda from somewhere else or something?

I was pooh poohed as being totally ignorant when I suggested a very long time ago when all of this came up, that it was totally ridiculous to have to read somebody their rights on the battlefield before shooting them, being shot, or arresting them. That seems utterly preposterous, but it seems that may be what this may all boil down to in the end.

Another point, the defendant can demand to have access to evidence, which can then be forked over to their buddies still out there. Folks, this administration is a total and absolute train wreck in regard to national security, and in regard to common sense.
DrewDad
 
  3  
Thu 19 Nov, 2009 10:24 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:
I am not a lawyer, but it seems like I have heard a few things, that being one of them.

This may be one of the funniest things you've ever posted, Okie.

"I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV."

I'm sure you, not being a lawyer but having heard a few things, know much more about prosecuting cases than real prosecutors.
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 20 Nov, 2009 04:49 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
How does global hegemony fit into evolutionary theory? Was that part of Darwin's thesis? Funny, I missed that part.


Obviously you missed it. You know nothing about the subject ci. and it's time you stopped pretending that you do.

Every species cannot help an unconscious drive towards global hegemony. It's what survival of the fittest means.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Fri 20 Nov, 2009 07:58 am
@mysteryman,
Who said anything about Bush being responsible?
Your attempt to deflect from your own statement by arguing something I never said is pathetic.

It's easy to look at the photo and blame the LOCAL and STATE governments but there is no evidence that they could have used them let alone that it would have rescued the tens of thousands trapped in NO.

The buses could have been used but ...
1. Even if all the buses were available with drivers and the time to get out, there were not enough to rescue everyone. Simple math based on the number of buses shows that.
2. Would the people have been better off trapped on buses on the road during the storme than in the Superdome and at the Convention Center after it? Probably not.
3. There is no evidence that drivers were available, let alone the buses worked.

I repeat my statement. Blaming the locals for not using the buses makes as much sense as blaming Bush for not activating all the military helicopters. Both attempts at blame are asinine.
parados
 
  3  
Fri 20 Nov, 2009 08:00 am
@okie,
Quote:
Another point, the defendant can demand to have access to evidence, which can then be forked over to their buddies still out there. Folks, this administration is a total and absolute train wreck in regard to national security, and in regard to common sense.

Talk about not understanding anything about the criminal process, let alone a trial that threatens national security...
1. You think defendants should not have access to evidence? And you call yourself a patriot? You are an idiot okie.
2. How can someone confined in a cell with no access to anyone other than his lawyers and the court fork this information over to his buddies? Again, You are an idiot okie.
McGentrix
 
  1  
Fri 20 Nov, 2009 08:07 am
@parados,
parados wrote:

The buses could have been used but ...
1. Even if all the buses were available with drivers and the time to get out, there were not enough to rescue everyone. Simple math based on the number of buses shows that.


So, because the buses could not rescue everyone, it is ok that they rescued no one? That's some poor math. I guess next time my wife goes grocery shopping, I will tell her that since I can't carry all the bags at once, I am not going to carry any of them in. That should turn out well.

Quote:
2. Would the people have been better off trapped on buses on the road during the storm than in the Superdome and at the Convention Center after it? Probably not.


Your making conjecture that people would be trapped in the buses during the storm. That's silly as they could have used the buses to evacuate people in the days leading up to the storm as part of an evacuation plan. They could have ferried people from the various low lying areas to the super dome and convention center. Instead, they sat idle.

Quote:
3. There is no evidence that drivers were available, let alone the buses worked.


That's because local officials failed.
parados
 
  2  
Fri 20 Nov, 2009 08:18 am
@McGentrix,
Quote:
So, because the buses could not rescue everyone, it is ok that they rescued no one? That's some poor math. I guess next time my wife goes grocery shopping, I will tell her that since I can't carry all the bags at once, I am not going to carry any of them in. That should turn out well.

So tell me why Bush didn't use all available military helicopters? That should turn out well for you...
Quote:
Your making conjecture that people would be trapped in the buses during the storm. That's silly as they could have used the buses to evacuate people in the days leading up to the storm as part of an evacuation plan. They could have ferried people from the various low lying areas to the super dome and convention center. Instead, they sat idle.

ROFLMAO..
So the people were trapped at the superdome because they weren't ferried there by the buses? Do you even bother to think?

Quote:
That's because local officials failed.
Uh uh.. sure.. and you have evidence of this how?
How many drivers would have showed up for work if given the choice to drive their family out of New Orleans or drive a school bus filled with strangers? How do you propose the local officials could have forced drivers to show up? Are you a mechanic McG? Can you tell us which buses worked and why it is the responsibility of local officials to force you to work on those buses without pay?
okie
 
  0  
Fri 20 Nov, 2009 08:29 am
@parados,
parados wrote:

Quote:
Another point, the defendant can demand to have access to evidence, which can then be forked over to their buddies still out there. Folks, this administration is a total and absolute train wreck in regard to national security, and in regard to common sense.

Talk about not understanding anything about the criminal process, let alone a trial that threatens national security...
1. You think defendants should not have access to evidence? And you call yourself a patriot? You are an idiot okie.
2. How can someone confined in a cell with no access to anyone other than his lawyers and the court fork this information over to his buddies? Again, You are an idiot okie.

And that someone confined in a cell does not have an attorney with ability to contact his buddies? Who is the idiot? I recall reading or hearing about this already happening, tipping off Osama Bin Laden. Parados, get serious, we are talking about terror networks at war with the West, not your garden variety criminal that held up a liquor store.

I thought Obama and his AG were really really smart? What happened?
McGentrix
 
  0  
Fri 20 Nov, 2009 08:29 am
@parados,
Quote:
So tell me why Bush didn't use all available military helicopters? That should turn out well for you...


I don't know. But we are discussing the buses and trying to divert away from that isn't going help you win any arguments.

Quote:
ROFLMAO..
So the people were trapped at the superdome because they weren't ferried there by the buses? Do you even bother to think?


I sure do think, but apparently you don't. How many at the super dome died due to drowning in the flood waters? Now, how many drowned that were not at the super dome but could have been if the buses, left parked, had taken them there?

Quote:
Uh uh.. sure.. and you have evidence of this how?


By looking at the fatality count.

Quote:
How many drivers would have showed up for work if given the choice to drive their family out of New Orleans or drive a school bus filled with strangers? How do you propose the local officials could have forced drivers to show up? Are you a mechanic McG? Can you tell us which buses worked and why it is the responsibility of local officials to force you to work on those buses without pay?


According to your media matter link:
" According to a September 5, 2003, article in the New Orleans Times-Picayune, "The [Orleans Parish school] district owns 324 buses but 70 are broken down." A 2003 document posted on the Louisiana Department of Education's website confirms that Orleans Parish used 324 "board owned" school buses and no "contractor owned" school buses."

Are you suggesting that none of their buses were working? Is that the extent of your logic here?

It's a simple idea, take buses that do work, send them out to low lying areas before the storm hits and offer rides to people that want them. Obviously the stupid people will not leave, but even if they save 1 person, that would have been a better solution.
okie
 
  -1  
Fri 20 Nov, 2009 08:31 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

okie wrote:
I am not a lawyer, but it seems like I have heard a few things, that being one of them.

This may be one of the funniest things you've ever posted, Okie.

"I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV."

I'm sure you, not being a lawyer but having heard a few things, know much more about prosecuting cases than real prosecutors.


It is funny, but also sad, when an okie with no legal training knows more from hearsay and reading stuff than Obama and his legal experts do, isn't it, Drewdad?

I also heard Obama thinks people will not be so critical when the defendant is found guilty and executed. Ha ha, can Obama say "O.J. Simpson?" Besides, I thought a man was innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, and the trial has not yet been done as far as I know, perhaps Obama thinks differently? What a dummie we have for a president, good grief, folks, we are in trouble. And the man is supposed to have a law degree? And his AG has no legal precedent for trying this guy in a civil court? Good grief, folks, do you realize what we are dealing with here in this administration. And the AG's law firm has previously represented GITMO detainees, another huge conflict of interest.
engineer
 
  2  
Fri 20 Nov, 2009 09:27 am
@okie,
From an article by Bush's DOJ team in support of Holder's decision

Quote:
A trial in Manhattan will bring enormous media attention and require unprecedented security. But it is unlikely to make New York a bigger target than it has been since February 1993, when Mohammed's nephew Ramzi Yousef attacked the World Trade Center. If al-Qaeda could carry out another attack in New York, it would -- a fact true a week ago and for a long time. Its inability to do so is a testament to our military, intelligence and law enforcement responses since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

In deciding to use federal court, the attorney general probably considered the record of the military commission system that was established in November 2001. This system secured three convictions in eight years. The only person who had a full commission trial, Osama bin Laden's driver, received five additional months in prison, resulting in a sentence that was shorter than he probably would have received from a federal judge.

One reason commissions have not worked well is that changes in constitutional, international and military laws since they were last used, during World War II, have produced great uncertainty about the commissions' validity. This uncertainty has led to many legal challenges that will continue indefinitely -- hardly an ideal situation for the trial of the century.

By contrast, there is no question about the legitimacy of U.S. federal courts to incapacitate terrorists. Many of Holder's critics appear to have forgotten that the Bush administration used civilian courts to put away dozens of terrorists, including "shoe bomber" Richard Reid; al-Qaeda agent Jose Padilla; "American Taliban" John Walker Lindh; the Lackawanna Six; and Zacarias Moussaoui, who was prosecuted for the same conspiracy for which Mohammed is likely to be charged. Many of these terrorists are locked in a supermax prison in Colorado, never to be seen again.


If Moussaoui was unable to leak out classified evidence used against him, I doubt it will be a concern this time around with evidence that is much more dated.
parados
 
  2  
Fri 20 Nov, 2009 09:50 am
@okie,
Quote:
And that someone confined in a cell does not have an attorney with ability to contact his buddies? Who is the idiot? I recall reading or hearing about this already happening, tipping off Osama Bin Laden. Parados, get serious, we are talking about terror networks at war with the West, not your garden variety criminal that held up a liquor store.

I thought Obama and his AG were really really smart? What happened?

It seems you are completely ignorant about what lawyers are required to do in cases that involve national security.

I am curious where you heard or read about this already happening. Did Rush tell you? If so, he was lying.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Fri 20 Nov, 2009 09:56 am
@McGentrix,
The buses WERE the diversion in this argument McG. MM tried to divert by bringing them up.

No, you don't think because you would have know the argument was about EVACUATION from the city using buses. Transferring them to the superdome isn't evacuation from the city. If you could think, you would know they are 2 different things and wouldn't have raised the first in a discussion about the second.

Quote:
It's a simple idea, take buses that do work, send them out to low lying areas before the storm hits and offer rides to people that want them. Obviously the stupid people will not leave, but even if they save 1 person, that would have been a better solution.
And you get your drivers from where if the drivers have evacuated the city? Well, it is great to say it, implementing it with persons who are paid to drive school buses isn't very practical in a storm situation if they refuse or are unavailable because they followed the order to evacuate.
okie
 
  -1  
Fri 20 Nov, 2009 09:59 am
@engineer,
I only have to read this and wonder if you and the writers have lost their minds? Good grief, that is probably one of the most ridiculous statements ever posted here or referenced on this forum. I think it depends upon what they did, where they did it, and where and how they are captured, under what circumstances, etc.

"By contrast, there is no question about the legitimacy of U.S. federal courts to incapacitate terrorists."
 

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