Obama '08?

Would kill you to admit it's not "mainstream" eh? Whatever.

Based on many years of conversations with folks of all political backgrounds, I truly believe it is maintstream. I believe polls would show well over half of Americans stating that they believed the statement that US actions in the Middle East lead to 9/11 happening, is an accurate description. I haven't been able to locate modern polling on this issue, other than some Zogby polls, which I distrust (based on Zogby's past reputation) despite the fact that they largely agree with my position.

In fact, I have never - and I do mean never, including my large family of Conservative Republicans - met someone who thought that US actions in the Middle East over the last few decades had nothing to do with 9/11. All admit that we have had both successes and failures, mistakes and positive actions over there. Most people I talked to directly blame the problem on the political party they opposed. And most realize that we have had a somewhat destabilizing effect on an already troubled reason.

Please understand that I do not believe, and I don't believe that Wright believed, that the people in the towers deserved it because of some actions they took. But we are allowed to speak about America as a whole and the consequences of our actions, right or wrong.

Cycloptichorn

One more comment about the article that I cited, from which I quoted from. The entire article is very damning evidence against the apparent political correctness that obviously was taken too far, and very possibly could be one important reason why Nidal Malik Hasan was not confronted and appropriately dealt with so that this whole thing would have been prevented. Not only is the military going to have to answer some serious questions about this, I think everyone that espouses this kind of political correctness that created this situation needs to admit the obvious and completely change their entire thinking about it. After all, when you have a guy standing up saying that there are legitimate reasons the jihadists have for doing things, you are in fact echoing the Reverend Wright. This is a very dangerous mindset, and certainly not one that I would dream of agreeing with, and when anyone, cylcops included, begins to espouse that kind of crap, I am going to stand up here and condemn it for what it is, which is crap.

well it's obvious to me what has to be done

they're just going to have to shut the army down, bring the boys home and close the shop

gonna really add to the unemployment lines

A thought for the day. Ironic as it is, it may take events like this to provide the illustration of what the real meaning and ramifications of who the Reverend Wright was, what he said, what he believed, and how screwed up it is, and now we have a president that sat in his church for years upon end and now has to deal with precisely the fruits of what that mindset produces, which is not a pretty thing. The president must be a very conflicted man, and it is anyones guess as to what goes on inside the man's head now, but if he had an ounce of sense he could connect the dots between the philosophy of "the chickens came home to roost" and the events at Fort Hood.

Even if it doesn't wake up Obama to the realities of this world, I hope it can wake some others up to them, I even hope for the cyclops of the world. After all, the dots are there, already almost lined up for them. I hope at least enough voters can do it before the next election.

jesus christ

change the ******* record

you must be blast at parties, telling the same story over and over again

I still don't see why you can't answer my question, Okie.

But, I'll ask you another: what about my mindset - the idea that the actions taken by the US helped lead to 9/11 - is 'dangerous?' Specifically.

Cycloptichorn

Gawd you're stubborn. Will pollingreport.com's coverage of CNN polls work for you?
http://www.pollingreport.com/S-Z.htm#Wright


NOT mainstream.

Whatever, Bill. The "chickens coming home to roost" statement didn't mean those 3000 people had it coming, and your inferring that from what Cyclops said is a little weird. It means the same thing now as it meant when Malcolm X used the exact same phrase 40 years or so ago, about US sponsored terrorism and violence not existing in a vacuum, but that what goes around comes around.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Justice_of_Roosting_Chickens

Cyclops isn't defending Wright, or saying that the 3000 innocents deserved what they got. I can see that. Why can't you?

OB - Would it be fair to say that an idea, no matter who says it, is larger than an individual?

A poll on people's opinion of Wright doesn't speak to whether one of his thoughts (that he was not the first to think of) is accepted by the mainstream.

The idea that we are not perfect and that our actions prior contributed to why we were targeted in the first place, I think is a pretty main stream idea. Why that can't be discussed without people rushing in to declare that a person like me must then "hate America," "blaming America for everything" or is a "terrorist sympathizer" is what is crazy.

Dude did you hear that Tony broke Leo's arm?

Yeah last week Tony caught Leo with his girlfriend.

I can't believe you're taking Tony's side on this!

What? No. I'm just saying I bet that's why.

Leo is family.

Leo still was caught last week with Tony's girlfriend.

Why are you blaming Leo for this? You think he deserved to get his arm broke? You think it justifies it?

No. Tony was wrong to break Leo's arm.

Then why defend Tony?

I'm not. Why is Leo surprised that something happened?


It seems kind of silly really. The USA isn't perfect, and some people will seek to have vengeance on us. It doesn't mean that I condone vengeance, it means I understand why these things happen. Acting surprised or like we can't see this kind of blow back coming is dumb.

T
K
O

Well spake, sir.

but......but......

you're talkin' smack about america

america maaaaaaan, home of the brave, land of the free, and all that stuff, i mean we got walmart for god's sake

that just ain't right, you're way out of line

<insert uber sarcastic smiley here>

snood, get serious, if a friend of yours is murdered by a jihadist, are you going to think and proclaim "the chickens have come home to roost?"

A perfect example of the "blame America first crowd." Incredible opinions here, bizarre as well, and very very sad.

Watch my count go to zero on this post too. The truth is hard for some people to take.

I never vote your posts down.

I'm still waiting for you to answer both my questions, Okie. Will you do so?

Cycloptichorn

Wow... Snood and Deist now too?

Ya'll can build as many strawmen as you like. No one said America was perfect. I stated plainly that our actions factored into the motivation of the attackers, and only a fool would claim otherwise. No one did.

Wright's idiotic "Chickens" statement is precisely the reason he's famous, and likely about the only thing most of the respondent's to that poll knew him by. The vast majority disagree with the assessment, precisely because it lends justification for the attack.

Some 3,000 innocent people were murdered that day. 90 country's citizens were represented. I think you guy's know that Muslim fundamentalist violence has killed a hell of a lot more people than that, just counting Muslim victims. This ideology has a zero tolerance, not just for the "prior bad acts" of the United States, but also Western culture in general, and collectively we just happen to be the leader of same. And it doesn't stop there; these people routinely kill people of essentially similar ideologies simply for following a different variation of Muslim ideology.

"The chickens have come home to roost" implies that absent American involvement in this or that; this wouldn't have happened. Bullshit. People all over the planet have been targeted simply for believing in something else. This idiotic assumption that there is a cause and effect relationship provides something of an excuse to a group of heinous murderers, who indiscriminately murdered close to 3,000 people... with victims from 90 different countries.

The citizens of this country heard Wright's bullshit repeatedly on news reels... and they soundly rejected it. To claim the view is "mainstream" is absurd. To pretend that rejecting “Wright’s foolishness equates to an absolution of all things America is just flat out dishonest. It's Cyclo's petty attempt to avoid admitting the truth, and you guys seem to be buying it.

The funny thing is, all three of you know better than to think that opinion is “mainstream”, and unlike the majority of America’s citizenry who prefer to just blindly accept that the attackers did it because they’re “evil-doers”, all three of you guys know very well that the fundamentalist murderer's motivation goes a hell of a lot deeper than answering for “America’s wrong-doing.” A little intellectual honesty would be appreciated.

Can you repeat the questions, sorry, I forgot what you asked.

Not bullshit, but truth. You are 100% incorrect here. We reap what we sow in this world, and the US sows plenty of violence- and sponsors it. Bin Laden would never, NEVER, have had the ability to do what he did, or the desire, if the US and CIA hadn't used him and his people as a tool against the Russians in the 80's. We enabled the entire thing.

Your polling on Wright has already been shown to be immaterial to the question.



Who gives a **** about the '90 different countries?' You sound like Bush used to, repeating useless facts in order to try and make some sort of useless point. The fact that not all in the building were Americans has nothing to do with the conversation. You seem to think the identity of the people in the WTC matters at all. It doesn't.

In short, you haven't provided any actual evidence that counters my position, and seem to think that forcefully repeating your opinion over and over again is a substitute for providing evidence.



Really? It seems to me that this is EXACTLY the point Okie was making when you butted into the conversation. Perhaps you should go back and review the thread.

Cycloptichorn

No problem.

First, how can you have such perfect trust in US foreign policy and such distrust in Domestic policy, when the same people are running it? For you to claim that the US hasn't made mistakes in the Middle East, that we haven't caused a lot of problems over there, implies this. You constantly talk about how the Government can't run anything right; but you think we've ran foreign policy correctly, and that nothing we've done has lead to aggression against us, period? This is exactly what you are stating, and I can't understand the logic in your position.

Secondly, what about my attitude - that events tend to have causes and that the US as a whole ought to think about this before taking action - is 'dangerous?' You claim that this is a very dangerous mindset. What is dangerous about it?

Cycloptichorn

Occom Bill, you may not like what I am about to say, because I think you also voted Obama, but here is what I think is the truth about this, politically, condemning Wright is akin to condemning Obama, and when people have so much emotional attachment and investment in one politician, as they have in Obama, it is extremely difficult for them to let go, to face the truth, to renounce and admit their mistake. Perhaps you view Wright separately from Obama, so that you do not now consider criticism of Wright as too close to criticizing Obama, and perhaps you still support Obama? If so, fine, its a free country. However, I sincerely believe it is a fact that alot of people now realize that Obama did agree with and harbor many of the same beliefs as Wright, and although Obama distanced himself from Wright, they still recognize the connection, and therefore they have now by virtue of supporting Obama have become apologists for Wright. I don't know if they really realize how extreme of a corner they have painted themselves into, but that is what is happening. Actually, I think this offers an opportunity for honest people to really watch Obama and recognize what has happened, and what an extremist we may now have in office, and hopefully we can recover from it next election.

Listen, I do not intend to insult your opinion if you still support Obama and simply view Wright as a separate issue, but I am not here to sugarcoat what I think the truth is, I am here to express what I think the facts and the truth supports.