Obama '08?

@okie,

okie wrote:

Have you ever heard of the tyranny of a majority? Since when are we Americans supposed to give up our rights because the majority says so?

What rights, Okie??? Please be specific! You make all sorts of wild statements like this, well, back 'em up!

Quote:

When did that happen? Since when can a majority tell me I have to buy a certain kind of product or service that I use personally?

Since you live in America, Jack. Unless you somehow don't pay Social Security or medicaid, or don't drive a car. If you do those things, you are paying for a service (which you may or may not want) because the majority tells you you have to.

Quote:

Are we now going to be told tomorrow that the government is going to tell us what kind of food we can buy too? Then what kind of car, then what?

This is a Slippery Slope argument. It's a logical fallacy. And it's stupid to begin with. The government already regulates the kinds of food and cars you can buy, and has been for my entire life.

Quote:

Besides, I think a majority of likely voters oppose Obama's health care.

You may think that, but they don't, and various polling evidence shows that they don't. I think it's very difficult for you to get perspective on this issue, as you live in arguably the most Conservative state in the nation, chock-full of Borderers, who have been contrary since the day they arrived in this country.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

That's a bit unfair dys. I'll agree okie is a bit extreme at times but his essential position is held by many people. He doesn't trust big government and there are ample reasons why he shouldn't if he values freedom most.

It is a bit of a stretch to assert that he is being in opposition for being in opposition's sake rather than in opposition to a threat he perceives. In fact, your post gives some credence to his fears about how liberals use words and how they might do if given more power. It was a smear really.

Spendi, if perchance, your defense of Okie is on the basis that he seems to wear conservative clothing, you are the one being deceived. His conservative clothing is quite simply the luggage he uses to carry his reactionary manifesto. As long as he continues to scurry about the kitchen floor as a cockroach in the world of reason during the daylight hours, he will continue to find himself under the heels of those going about their lives seeking honest (even liberal) solutions to the problems of todays society.

1 Reply

@dyslexia,

I don't see any problems dys. We never had it so good. Us proles are better off than kings and emperors were not that long ago.

I wasn't really defending okie. I was trying to explain how I think he sees it. You accused him of opposing for opposing's sake and I think that was presumptuous and unfair. It is a charge he cannot answer in any way which will satisfy you.

I think he believes in the position he takes and is entitled to argue for it. I never said I agreed with him. But there are rather a lot of regulations which honest liberals have brought in to prevent us doing things they don't approve of.

Some of them are useful I'll admit. Sell by dates for example. They have considerably reduced my expenses. You can buy stuff past its sell by date here at 75% off. At least. I eat nothing else except when I can't get any of that. And stopping smoking in pubs enables us all to better appreciate the farts of our fellow men and women.

Honest liberals my fat arse. The militants are so bent they will have to be screwed into the ground when they pass on.

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
I have no trust whatsoever of Democrat bills, after all I already know they want single payer as the eventual goal, so I am not supporting any of their legislation, simply because their will be triggers and nuances hidden in whatever bill to lead to more government control over my health care.

This is a Slippery Slope argument, a logical fallacy.

Cyclops. While this may technically be a Slippery Slope argument; you KNOW that the goal is single payer. You KNOW this. It's your goal. It's my goal. It's Obama's goal (maybe not this year, but long term). It's THE plan, and for a number of good reason I believe.

So, while it's convenient to shrug off his concern as a logical fallacy; THIS is the concern that Democrats will have to address if they want any more public or congressional support from republicans. If they don't, then cool, they'll just have to get the rest of the party to agree.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

old europe wrote:
I'm not particularly interested in the Brazilian or Russian health care system either.

QED

What, exactly, do you believe you have demonstrated, George? That I'm not interested in the health care systems of every country in the world? Well, you're right.

Then again, I never made that claim, did I?

I did say that I was interested in solutions that other countries are discussing or trying to implement, but I'll certainly admit that I'm more interested in the solutions of some countries than those of others.

Part of the reason is that I spend considerable time every year in the United States, but not necessarily in other countries. Part of the reason is that I know the language, which makes it easier to follow the topic in the US than for example in Brazil or Russia. Part of the reason is that I have friends in the United States, and the topic occasionally comes up in conversations.

I suspect, however, that you're not particularly interested in any of the reasons I've mentioned, but rather that your general position is that foreigners simply should not join the discussion about the American health care system, particularly not with critical comments. I believe that you perceive that kind of participation in the discussion as US-bashing by people who have no business in even talking about the topic. That's what you were hoping to demonstrate, isn't it? That I'm only interested in bashing America, via the current conversation about the health care system, right?

2 Replies

@old europe,

oe, If it's of any consequence, I never thought you were out to bash our country.

1 Reply

@maporsche,

I don't see single payer from any of the legislation now being worked on. It's possible I'm not reading the small print, but I'm also sure that more people will be screaming bloody murder if a single payer plan is in the works. What I have been understanding that consumers should have a choice between a private plan and a government plan - in order to maximize competition.

That's what capitalism is all about - from my understanding of the subject.

1 Reply

@old europe,

old europe wrote:

I suspect, however, that you're not particularly interested in any of the reasons I've mentioned, but rather that your general position is that foreigners simply should not join the discussion about the American health care system, particularly not with critical comments. I believe that you perceive that kind of participation in the discussion as US-bashing by people who have no business in even talking about the topic. That's what you were hoping to demonstrate, isn't it? That I'm only interested in bashing America, via the current conversation about the health care system, right?

No, you are looking farther than you can see. However it is true that you venture much farther into such things than I would do with respect to your country.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

No, you are looking farther than you can see.

Possibly. Feel free to explain what you hoped to have demonstrated.

georgeob1 wrote:

However it is true that you venture much farther into such things than I would do with respect to your country.

And that's a bad thing?

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
Besides, I think a majority of likely voters oppose Obama's health care.

You may think that, but they don't, and various polling evidence shows that they don't. I think it's very difficult for you to get perspective on this issue, as you live in arguably the most Conservative state in the nation, chock-full of Borderers, who have been contrary since the day they arrived in this country.

Cycloptichorn

Well, let me put it this way, there is no majority support among voters for the legislation, in fact down to 43% according to Rasmussen.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/among_the_uninsured_58_favor_president_s_health_care_plan

Among all voters surveyed during this time frame, 46% favored passage of the health care plan. After the bounce wore off, support for the President’s plan fell to 43%.

1 Reply

@old europe,

old europe wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:
However it is true that you venture much farther into such things than I would do with respect to your country.

And that's a bad thing?

That is a matter of personal discretion. I wouldn't do it.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

old europe wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
However it is true that you venture much farther into such things than I would do with respect to your country.

And that's a bad thing?

That is a matter of personal discretion. I wouldn't do it.

I don't know, George. By "it", are you referring to "discussing political topics of a country one is not a citizen of"?

'cause I've seen your posts about Israel....

1 Reply

@okie,

I don't know what the polls are on ObamaCare, but I for one have many doubts about how the legislation is coming along. I don't think anyone knows how much it'll end up costing or how much universal health care will save in costs. I'm very leary about anything that plans to nationalize such a big program without knowing its true cost or savings; how much it's going to cost consumers/taxpayers, and where the savings will come from and how much.

I think for such a huge program, they should do some testing of the program in different locations across the country before they implement a national program. The way all the legislation seems to be developing is on real wild guesses on costs and savings. If their guesses are wrong, it's going to impact our country in too many negative ways.

I still believe we need to reform health care in this country, but I don't see enough information to determine how much individuals will pay, and how costs will be saved by implementing efficiencies, and eliminating fraud and waste. How will the end product actually become cheaper while we improve enrollment into health insurance plans?

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@cicerone imposter,

It's not in any of the plans right now; which I stipulated.

But you'd be a fool if you didn't think that a single payer system is the END goal for the majority of Democrats; and that these steps ARE incremental to getting us there. It may take 20 years to get there, but that is the goal.

And, you'd be a liar if you didn't admit to as much.

1 Reply

Was Obama playing dumb? I think so, without a doubt in my mind, fact is I think he lied. Fact is, he promised them they would be some of the first to the Whitehouse if elected, to help layout the plans.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/21/obama-ties-acorn-date-decades/

Obama Ties to ACORN Date Back Nearly 20 Years
President Obama took great pains Sunday to act as if he barely knew about Acorn. In fact, his association goes back almost 20 years.
By John Fund, The Wall Street Journal

FOXNews.com

Monday, September 21, 2009

Only one of the five television networks that interviewed President Obama for their Sunday shows bothered to ask him about Acorn, the left-wing community organizing group whose federal funding was cut off last week by an overwhelming vote in Congress.

"Frankly, it's not something I've followed closely," Mr. Obama claimed, adding he wasn't even aware the group had been the recipient of significant federal funding. "This is not the biggest issue facing the country. It's not something I'm paying a lot of attention to," he said.

Mr. Obama added that an investigation of Acorn was appropriate after an amateur hidden-camera investigation had found Acorn offices willing to abet prostitution, but he carefully declined to say whether he would approve a federal cutoff of funds to the group.

Mr. Obama took great pains to act as if he barely knew about Acorn. In fact, his association goes back almost 20 years. In 1991, he took time off from his law firm to run a voter-registration drive for Project Vote, an Acorn partner that was soon fully absorbed under the Acorn umbrella.

The drive registered 135,000 voters and was considered a major factor in the upset victory of Democrat Carol Moseley Braun over incumbent Democratic Senator Alan Dixon in the 1992 Democratic Senate primary.

Mr. Obama's success made him a hot commodity on the community organizing circuit. He became a top trainer at Acorn's Chicago conferences. In 1995, he became Acorn's attorney, participating in a landmark case to force the state of Illinois to implement the federal Motor Voter Law. That law's loose voter registration requirements would later be exploited by Acorn employees in an effort to flood voter rolls with fake names.

Here is the truth:

1 Reply

@okie,

"he wasn't even aware the group had been the recipient of significant federal funding."

Come on folks, this statement has no credibility whatsoever.

0 Replies

@old europe,

old europe wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:
old europe wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
However it is true that you venture much farther into such things than I would do with respect to your country.

And that's a bad thing?

That is a matter of personal discretion. I wouldn't do it.

I don't know, George. By "it", are you referring to "discussing political topics of a country one is not a citizen of"?

'cause I've seen your posts about Israel....

True enough. However, my motive (excuse) there was the direct effect our rather unqualified support of Israel has had on the unfortunate choices that country has made, and ,in turn, on the repercussions they have had on me and my country. I have also noted the historical background of the breakup of the Ottoman Empire and the important lessons there for us all, as matters of near universal interest. The appropriate role of my country in the Middle East is a subject of rather widespread and legitimate interest, and one that is increasingly debated here. I would, for example, put a similar discussion of domestic policies within Israel that have no effect on me or my country in a different category.

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@maporsche,

How did you come to your conclusion? There are countries with universal health care that has both a private and public option, and they're not about to be a one-payer system - or at least there's no sign of such.

0 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

oe, If it's of any consequence, I never thought you were out to bash our country.

Neither did I. And OE defiantely adds something to most discussions.

0 Replies

I recommend everyone watch this long video by Beck on Obama. Beck has it pretty well figured out, and I think it pretty well defines who he is. Basically all intertwined with a bunch of radicals, Acorn, Tides, etc. etc. A bunch of radical leftists thats for sure. Even former criminals and terrorists.

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?maven_referralObject=9879667&maven_referralPlaylistId=&sRevUrl=http://www.foxnews.com/

1 Reply

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