Obama '08?

Sadly, he doesn't seem to distinguish between income taxes and all taxes. You're right that I have been plenty wrong before and, if somebody affords me the respect to debate an issue about which I feel strongly, they can show me how and where I am wrong and do. But those who condemn me simply because I have strength of my convictions, I figure don't even have a clue what those convictions are, much less any ammunition to dispute them.

He must be reading my posts though or he wouldn't know how wrong I am. He however hasn't admitted that he was wrong about the percentage who paid taxes after challenging you on that.

Moving on though, you mentioned before that you approved of what Obama was doing. Could you elaborate on two or three of his initiatives that you are supporting? I am honestly looking for some silver linings in all this.

I personally favor mandatory health care (and ideally single payer). I think the combination of preventive care, and taking people out of expensive emergency rooms and into private doctors offices for their healthcare needs will not only result in overall cheaper health care, but an overall healthier society. It will cost money, and I want Obama to pay for it through various combinations of tax increases or reallocation of current funds (preferably through reallocation, but I don't see how that's possible). I DO NOT want him to pay for this through increased deficits. I will oppose it if he tries to. I think that once we get through the initial pain that comes with all change, our country will be paying less money per capita in healthcare than we do now. This may take several years.

I do not believe that the downside to UHC exceeds the benefit to the country as a whole. And as long as we don't exclude people/doctors from accepting cash or private insurance, and also allowing doctors to choose NOT to accept public insurance then I don't think there is are many negatives at all.

Really, that's the biggest one for me right now. I liked his talk about transparency and reducing government waste, but he's been shown to be a liar in both of those aspects.

I can agree with that to an extent. However, I think we probably disagree on what the real root of the problem is, thus on the solutions. We may need to reform laws that govern corporations, or tax laws in general. Or maybe the answer is simply to prosecute what appears to be possible insider trading. I agree that corruption does happen, and where found it should be prosecuted. The answer is not to demonize everyone that has any money or makes money, or to tax much more severely every person that has money or makes money

Okay, I can accept that as an honorable position and won't even try to talk you out of it for now. Because of long experience with single payer health care, I am opposed to the concept on several fronts for what I believe to be very good reasons, but I am open to having my mind changed if I'm wrong.

If you run across a good forum where the issues involved are actually being debated without the usual schoolyard insults and people bashing, please point me to it.

I don't have enough experience to even attempt to talk you out of it Fox. I think we'll both have to just wait and see how it plays out.

Hopefully it will be closer to what I believe than what you believe (for all of our sakes).

Obama has the votes right now, it's going to happen. Let's just hope it's done responsibly.

It would be irresponsible for this bill to pass as it is written, let's hope it does not pass.

Health care plan would raise taxes on wealthy

"Numerous officials say that under the proposal, an income tax surcharge would be
imposed on individuals earning more than $200,000, with a higher threshold for couples."

With Obamanomics at play... Individuals earning $200K a year ain't wealthy.

maporsche, I have read the last 3 or 4 pages, and I commend you for reasoned debate. You deserve credit for being honest about being an Obama voter, but also not being so emotionally devoted to him that you cannot see the broader picture, and to do your own thinking in regard to issues.

In regard to health care, one important point, there is this often quoted belief that preventive health care expenditures brings health care costs down. For example, do HMO's actually work as they were supposed to work? I seriously doubt this assertion, I could be wrong, but if anyone has any data to support this, I would like to see it. I realize you can prevent cancer by not smoking, one good example, but this is done with lifestyle, not preventive doctor bills or tests. Immunizations, yes, a few proven ones are very worthwhile, but we already do most of the easily preventative measures already. I believe it is lifestyle that has the most potential for improving lifespans and quality of life. And if you really want to know the truth, early death may actually reduce the cost of overall entitlement spending. After all, longer lives means more people on social security.

You have to look at universal health care in other countries that are in crisis, health care is being rationed, and headed for harder times. Government simply cannot manage your health care better than you can, I simply do not believe it. Other things for you to think about, can government choose a job for you better than you can? Can the government design a vehicle for you that will be better than you would choose? Can the government design housing for you that you will like better and that will be more convenient for you than you would choose for yourself? The answer should be obviously No. Do I believe we don't have problems in health care, certainly I do, but we can improve a good system with reform and tweaking, not throwing the baby out with the bath water. My wife and I are near retirement, and we have good insurance for less than most people's house payments. We can reform the current system, and still provide medicaid health care for the truly incapable of providing for themselves, which we already do.

"...emotionally devoted to him..." is about the most idiotic statement on a2k.

Are you a robot with a brain, or a brain on a robot?

I don't think he does have the votes unless they pass it in the dark of night without letting anybody in the media know what's in it. But they've done that before and could do it again. Right now, the last I heard, the House version is 1100 pages and growing, it is being written by staffers and lobbyists, and not a single elected representative has read it or can tell us what is in it.

The President has already shown us that the people won't have any opportunity to know what they're getting before he signs it into law.

Given the crushing weight of the entitlements that we already have and the fact that this new one will take over 17% more of the US economy, this scares the bejebbers out of me. But I'm nearing the end now and won't have to live under it for decades as you and your generation will.

I hope beyond hope that I'm wrong about the intinerary here. But the current Congress and Administration is giving me no hope that I am.

Do we need universal housing legislation? After all, it is essential, and not everybody has it? Do we need universal transportation legislation? Not everyone's transportation is adequate. Do we need universal food legislation? Not everyone has it, and everyone should be guaranteed a balanced and adequate diet? Just a few thoughts to ponder.

I think an ill housed, undernourished population that has inadequate transportation is probably costing the federal government billions in tax monies and other costs. If we guaranteed all of those things, it would revitalize our economy, no doubt, and probably save us money in the long run. Also I almost forgot, poorly clothed people die of exposure, and shall we say it, poor self esteem, which almost assuredly causes under performance in their work and personal lives. It might even cause divorce and domestic violence, more research is probably needed on this. I am sure some government grants could be found for this work, perhaps some money somewhere in the stimulus money floating around out there.

When Obama claims universal health care will solve the economic problems, his arguments are much along the same line as the points I have just made. In fact, I suspect Obama would like my ideas. He might want to wait until he gets health care reform done before he tackles those other ideas however.

okie, You never cease to amaze me with your ignorance. Our country does have both housing and food legislations that builds homes and provides food stamps for low income folks. This has been going on for decades. Where have you been all this time?

Here, okie, educate yourself about government programs: http://www.centeronbudget.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1258

how about we start with those in CONGRESS knowing what they are voting for before they vote! Ever since the Gingrich band of hoodlums took over there has been the practice of voting on complicated and very lengthy bills hours after the final draft has been passed out, before anyone has had a chance to look it over to see what the final terms are. That is how we get such results as congress voting to forbid the government from regulating credit default swaps, but with only about a dozen people in Washington realizing that this was in the bill.

Obama loves the tactic of making up a deadline, a very near term deadline, and demanding that agreement be reached by his deadline. Not only has he done this with bailout bills and the health care reform legislation, but he also did it with both the Chrysler and GM Bankruptcies. Democracy is about debate, and mutual agreement on what action to take. Obama forcing a timetable the precludes full debate, that does not give the holders of minority views a chance to fight for what they believe in, is a travesty in a proclaimed democracy.

But is not a universal plan, it is hodge podge, hit and miss. Can anyone deny the homeless out there, suffering under the bridges? What we have now is costing us dearly, because there is no overall plan for everyone, that is fair. We have little programs here and there, kind of like medicaid is one for health care, but as it is , it is every man for himself. We need housing boards set up all across the country to oversee a messed up situation and bring order to the whole thing. It would save us money in the long run.

We need a federal housing board to oversee everybody's housing. Also a clothing czar, and a transportation czar. We have a transportation czar already perhaps, but he has no authority to bring everybody into compliance to save us all money and to reduce pollution. We are getting there perhaps, but we have a long way to go.

What a novel idea...

And here under Government Assistance Programs:
* Food Stamps and Other Nutrition Assistance Programs

* Home Mortgage and Housing Assistance
* Home Rental Assistance

This URL works better than the one I posted above: http://www.centeronbudget.org/index.cfm

And this link takes you to the Food Stamp Program: http://www.fns.usda.gov/FSP/

I should also add that these programs were supported and funded by both parties/administrations/congress.

I think I have finally hit on the final solutions. We have been dancing around the issues too long. Here is what we need:
Universal health care
Universal housing
Universal food and nutrition
Universal clothing


And finally:
Universal happiness.

Who is going to oversee all of this. Who else but the government. The first four essentials, or building blocks to our lives, are health care, housing, food and nutrition, and clothing, these will have one central agency each to oversee these functions, to insure fairness and that everyone receives what is deemed essential and healthy. This will do away with much duplication of effort and waste in the private sector. Profits are wasteful and are siphoning away the efficiencies and fairness in the system. We can bring fairness and efficiency by appointing boards that are made up of citizens just like you and I, that will oversee all of this, and it will run like clockwork. By reducing waste and redundancy, we can reduce the cost and increase quality of health care, housing, food service, and clothing. An intergral part of this is we will computerize all the records, so that they can be pulled up in an instant, to reduce mistakes in housing, medical care, transportation, and clothing. For example, when you need clothes, these records are readily available, to guide the clothing providers and experts in your provisions.

All of these functions can be tied together to integrate and mesh smoothly with one another, by having one overall board and czar to oversee the general mission of all four of them together. Costs will undoubtedly be reduced, and efficiency will increase. What are we waiting for. We have to do it immediately. People have suffered too long. I want legislation on Obama's desk by the end of July, no later.

Even your "solutions" are idiotic/unrealistic/and will never see the light of day. You live in the dark and don't realize it.

Thanks for your 1st paragraph. I try.

Regarding your 3rd, I look at your point about health care being rationed and of course I have to agree. But it sounds like you don't think health care is rationed in the US? It's rationed by the insurance companies and by cost. Personally, this argument doesn't convince me, because I don't see it as a rationed healthcare vs non-rationed healthcare choice.

I also don't think as many people have a choice in their healthcare as you do. My employer offers a few choices, which are all basically identical in benefits and cost. I also know that if an insurance company chooses not to pay for a procedure, there is little real recourse I could take. I could sue them to pay for it, which I don't have the money for. I could choose to take my business elsewhere, except my employer only allows me to make changes once per year, and then there's the whole 'pre-existing condition' issue when you're asking for the next healthcare provider to foot the bill that the last one wouldn't. I guess I could also choose to go with a plan not offered by my employer, but I know I don't have the money for that, and then I'd be even less protected in case something happened to me because I wouldn't be part of such a large group of covered people.

I guess I don't think the system is all that great right now.

If a public plan becomes available, I will push my employer to offer to it as an option during my annual benefits process, and I will choose it. I also hope that private insurance companies offer supplemental insurance to make sure that I maintain a high level of care (which I will have earned, and be able to pay for with my own dollars).