@old europe,
old europe wrote:
okie wrote:And on this forum, you will have the Parados's, etc., equivocating, justifying, and spinning, till the cows come home.
Which is essentially what other people are doing when they're claiming that the previous President was a "decent man" after it's become a well-known fact that he instituted a secret state-run torture program.
Bush is a decent man, was, and is. The problem with your statement is the fact that you define torture, call it torture, when legally it was not deemed torture by the legal opinions provided Bush. Enhanced interrogation techniques did in fact extract very useful information that saved lives, probably many, and the techniques used did not inflict lasting health issues. One can argue emotional, but get real, the most hard core suspects on which this stuff was used are emotionally screwed up with all of their hatreds to begin with.
There is also evidence that Democrats, such as Pelosi, were briefed on this, and it was fine then, but she denies now. The climate has changed immensely since 2001, when the realities of what madmen were willing and capable of doing. 9/11 was fresh in peoples minds, as was the anthrax cases, and we more vividly understood the possibilities of nuclear and biological terrorist acts. Unfortunately, we have forgotten that.
Was reading a book last night about Stalin dealing with Hitler, and Stalin apparently refused to believe Hitler would attack, and instructed his forces to treat Germany with nothing that would appear to provoke, to the point of coddling and turning a blind eye to the realities of what was going to happen. I think we are now going back to a mindset like that right now.
I admit that waterboarding may be marginal, and it does cause me trepidations and some doubt, but some of the other charges, such as sleep deprivation, loud music, etc., that have been mentioned as torture, is not torture. If it was, I was tortured in the Army basic training, as I was deprived of sleep, intentionally, by the sargeants, that is part of the training, as were all the other soldiers.
I heard Mark Stein on Rush Limbaugh the other day talking about the caterpillar treatment. He framed a scenario where all the "torture czars" from around the world, different countries, got together and talked about strategies, and one of them said when in the most dire circumstances in one case, it got to the point when they were faced with armageddon, that they had to - perish the thought it would ever get to that, the almost unspeakable, "get out the caterpillar." You probably will chastise me for finding that humorous, but I did. Is that where we are at now with all of this, in dealing with people that have no regard for human life whatsoever?