mysteryman
 
  1  
Sat 25 Apr, 2009 04:07 pm
@cicerone imposter,
It does matter if polls can be manipulated.
Like I said, polls are manipulated by the way questions are worded.

If a poll was produced today that claimed that the Nazi's were the greatest force for good on the planet, would you immediately believe it?
After all, it was a scientific poll.

I dont know about recent polls, because I dont follow polls.
Asking me about polls when I admit I dont follow them is stupid, because I cant answer a question about something I know nothing about, nor do I care to know.

I dont like or trust polls, so I dont care, period.
Is that easy for you to understand, or do I need to speak slower?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 25 Apr, 2009 04:13 pm
@mysteryman,
You missed what I said; it doesn't matter whether polls are manipulated or not if they're not accurate. They can manipulate polls all they want, but the end result must be accurate or they will not exist for long.

Take the election polls for example; if they say McCain will win by 10%, and Obama wins by 10%, that polling organization will have not much credibility left no matter how much they manipulate the questions. If they manipulate the questions for Obama to win by 10%, and Obama wins by 10%, that polling agency will retain credibility in the future, but "consistency" is what matters. They can't fly all over the graphs from one poll to the next to retain credibility. It just doesn't work that way.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Sat 25 Apr, 2009 04:22 pm
@cicerone imposter,
There are other ways polls can be twisted to obtain the result the pollster wants.

If a pollster wants to find out what percentage of the population is red-headed, and the results can increase funding (or provide other perks) for red-heads, that pollster might ask more red-heads then others.
That would get him the results he wants, while still conducting a scientific, honest poll.

You can defend them all you want, but the only poll that counts, IMHO, is the one on election day, when we ALL get to cast our opinion.
Anything else is a waste of time and meaningless, IMHO.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 25 Apr, 2009 04:39 pm
@mysteryman,
It's up to individuals to believe or not believe in polls. There are many kinds of polls that people use; if they believe any polls, that's their choice whether it has accurate info or not. We can't control polls or to train people how to use them.
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Sat 25 Apr, 2009 05:14 pm
I think we can say that we disagree on the value of polls.
Having said that, I note that according to a poll out this week (which I can cite if asked), 60% of us believe that the disclosure/discussion about what constitutes "torture" "...threatens our national security."
The Obama administration botched this badly. First, Mr Obama said the CIA foot-soldiers would be immune from prosecution but the folks at Justice (and further up the chain including politicos) might be on the hook. Then Mr Obama tossed the whole thing into Atty Gen Holder's lap. Congress will toy with the idea of hearings but, I suspect, will pass. And then there is the notion of a "blue ribbon committee" comprised of respected old f*rts who probably won't have subpoena power. This will, I think, get buried.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 25 Apr, 2009 05:24 pm
@realjohnboy,
rjb, You might be spot on this one! What will they do if they call Cheney to testify, and he doesn't show up?
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Mon 27 Apr, 2009 07:44 am
@realjohnboy,
Quote:
Having said that, I note that according to a poll out this week (which I can cite if asked), 60% of us believe that the disclosure/discussion about what constitutes "torture" "...threatens our national security."




Quote:
Most Americans support Obama's release of previously secret Bush administration records on torture, but by a fairly tepid 53-44 percent, with strong supporters and strong opponents about evenly matched.


Obama's First 100 Days: Rising Hopes, Partisan Politics
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  3  
Mon 27 Apr, 2009 09:07 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

If a pollster wants to find out what percentage of the population is red-headed, and the results can increase funding (or provide other perks) for red-heads, that pollster might ask more red-heads then others.
That would get him the results he wants, while still conducting a scientific, honest poll.

If the pollster specifically intends to ask more red heads then it is not a scientific, honest poll.

The information of who was selected for the poll is part of it being scientific. A good pollster will inform how they were selected and will also attempt to adjust for known demographics if their poll respondents don't appear to be equal to those demographics.
0 Replies
 
rabel22
 
  1  
Mon 27 Apr, 2009 09:58 am
I watched our local educational channel because I was discouraged by the bad news on the regular TV and papers. The first thing I saw were two well known economists discussing how the banks and the fininicial institutions had bluffed out Obama and the congress. They declaired that neither was going to do anything to regulate them because they were too powerful and because big business had put them both in office. My favorite subject the politicizeing of the supreme court. When they changed the defination of graft to political contributions they started the US of A on the road to ruin. No where in the constitution does it say that a dollar is equvilant to a vote for political office. Only in the mind of an idiot judge whose place on the court was bought by big business. If the people dont wake up and take back thier government we are going to be the equvilant of 1950s Argentina in the near future.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Mon 27 Apr, 2009 01:44 pm
I wonder whose bright idea this was?

(Sorta exhonerates all of us who have been criticized for referring to President Obama as the 'messiah' though. Smile

Quote:
OBAMA WATCH CENTRAL
100 days in office, coronated Messiah
Arms outstretched, he wears crown of thorns on his brow
April 25, 2009
By Drew Zahn
© 2009 WorldNetDaily

http://worldnetdaily.com/images/090425obamathetruth.jpg

"The Truth" by Michael D'Antuono

On his 100th day in office, President Obama will be "crowned" in messianic imagery at New York City's Union Square.

Artist Michael D'Antuono's painting "The Truth" " featuring Obama with his arms outstretched and wearing a crown of thorns upon his head " will be unveiled on April 29 at the Square's South Plaza.

According to a statement released about the portrait, "The 30" x 54" acrylic painting on canvas depicts President Obama appearing much like Jesus Christ on the Cross: atop his head, a crown of thorns; behind him, the dark veil being lifted (or lowered) on the Presidential Seal. But is he revealing or concealing, and is he being crucified or glorified?"

Even the title of the piece, "The Truth," suggests a play on biblical themes, as Jesus said in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Get "The Audacity of Deceit: Barack Obama's War on American Values" and learn about the looming hostile attack on Judeo-Christian values and freedoms Americans hold dear

"More than a presidential portrait," writes D'Antuono on a website touting the painting, "'The Truth' is a politically, religiously and socially-charged statement on our nation's current political climate and deep partisan divide that is sure to create a dialogue."

Like others in the news who have depicted Obama in Christ-like imagery, D'Antuono insists he isn't claiming the man is Messiah, but only inviting "individual interpretations."

"'The Truth,' like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder," claims the exhibit's press release.

D'Antuono even invites the public to email him with reactions to the piece, answering his posed question, "What's your truth?"
http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=96138
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 27 Apr, 2009 01:45 pm
@Foxfyre,
Another MAC>?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Mon 27 Apr, 2009 01:50 pm
@Foxfyre,
For the record, no matter who commissioned this or who thought it up, I think it is in really bad taste.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 27 Apr, 2009 02:04 pm
@Foxfyre,
You just love to "spread it around" the net.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  3  
Mon 27 Apr, 2009 03:44 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
(Sorta exhonerates all of us who have been criticized for referring to President Obama as the 'messiah' though. Smile

How does it do that?

What's the logic here? Some idiot lefty or provocateur artist now compares Obama with the messiah -- ergo, there was nothing wrong about you mocking him as the Messiah before?

Dont quite see how that makes sense. It was idiotic when you did it, it's idiotic now this artist does it.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 27 Apr, 2009 03:51 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

For the record, no matter who commissioned this or who thought it up, I think it is in really bad taste.


If you've read what was reported a couple of days ago in the media, you could have easily known the background of this painting ... let alone that there#s a website about it ...
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Mon 27 Apr, 2009 03:55 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

For the record, no matter who commissioned this or who thought it up, I think it is in really bad taste.

Quote:

"More than a presidential portrait," writes D'Antuono on a website touting the painting, "'The Truth' is a politically, religiously and socially-charged statement on our nation's current political climate and deep partisan divide that is sure to create a dialogue."


That artist has your number Fox.
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Mon 27 Apr, 2009 04:06 pm
@parados,
I had an employee in my art supply store who got his master's degree in art from a major university. He had a quiet, dry wit and a delightful Arkansas accent.
"A key to success (in art)" he said, "is not the art but the artist's ability to craft a statement about the art."
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 27 Apr, 2009 04:12 pm
@realjohnboy,
And all art forms are based on each individual's subjective attraction to it.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Mon 27 Apr, 2009 04:19 pm
Without commenting on the merits of the painting foxy mentioned, I do want to ask a question.

Those of you that seem to think the painting is ok, would you still think it was ok if it showed Obama standing in a bucket of urine or of human feces?

Or would you consider that disrespectable and in bad taste?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  3  
Mon 27 Apr, 2009 04:23 pm
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy wrote:
A fair claim, I reckon, but I started to follow the daily Rasmussen Approval Index on President Obama a month or so ago with updates every couple of weeks. I am a Democrat, but I will post the latest updates without trying to spin the results.

Quick word of warning: Rasmussen pretty consistently finds results that diverge rather significantly from what the other pollsters are finding. At least when it comes to Obama's personal (job approval and favourability) ratings.

Here's the chart from pollster.com about Obama's favourability rating (tweaked to exclude internet polls like Zogby's). It's a comprehensive overview of all the poll results. Each dot represents one poll; the lines represent the trendlines. Now take Obama's unfavourable rating. I've taken pollster.com's chart and circled Rasmussen's findings - and those of all the other pollsters.

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/7050/obamafavorblrasm.png

The difference is smaller but still noticeable when it comes to Obama's job approval rating and where pollsters peg his disapproval rating:

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/9266/obamajobapprrasm.png

I'm going to go with good faith here and assume that this is the consequence of an honest and legitimate difference in choice of methodology. All pollsters need to make a set of fundamental decisions on methodology, from the choice between anonymous, but in-person interviews and automated calling to the phrasing of the question. Seemingly minor differences can have significant impacts on the findings. Rasmussen probably just makes a different choice on some of those counts.

Those less trustful will, on the other hand, point out that the Rasmussen site's editorial analyses are overwhelmingly written from a Republican/conservative point of view, by people like Michael Barone, Debra Saunders, Lawrence Kudlow and Tony Blankley, and that the pollster seems to be increasingly profiling itself as the conservative's choice of preference. I've got to admit that especially since the last elections, some of the choices of subjects and wording of questions about those subjects in the more topical, ad-hoc polls had me frowning too - though checking now, the last few all sound fair enough to me.

Anyway - when polls vary, you can never know for sure which one is right. Take state polls ahead of a primary or the general election - sometimes, it's the lone dissenter who is proven right. But generally, if one pollster is off on its lonesome in one direction while the consensus points more the other way, I tend to - well, not discount the dissenting poll - but take it with a larger grain of salt than is already advisable. Seems best to me to check in with aggregator sites like www.pollster.com occasionally - or if you like some partisan flavor, www.realclearpolitics.com/polls (conservative) or www.fivethirtyeight.com (liberal), so you can keep an eye on how a pollster's findings compare with those of others.
 

Related Topics

So....Will Biden Be VP? - Question by blueveinedthrobber
My view on Obama - Discussion by McGentrix
Obama/ Love Him or Hate Him, We've Got Him - Discussion by Phoenix32890
Obama fumbles at Faith Forum - Discussion by slkshock7
Expert: Obama is not the antichrist - Discussion by joefromchicago
Obama's State of the Union - Discussion by maxdancona
Obama 2012? - Discussion by snood
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Obama '08?
  3. » Page 1236
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.62 seconds on 11/25/2024 at 09:41:07