cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 23 Apr, 2009 10:04 am
@revel,
revel, The polls taken for the first 100-days of a president is almost meaningless, because we really do not know how their over-all performance will be after three or more years at the helm.

This economic crisis is a somewhat different kettle of fish, because this is a contemporary world crisis never seen before when we are losing over a half million jobs every month with no end in site.

IMHO, it is job loss that will determine when and how our economy will show any improvement.

We still have a long ways to go, and I'll be surprised if our economy shows any improvement during the first three years of Obama's presidency. Putting a brake on the current trend in job loss will be long-term.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Thu 23 Apr, 2009 10:16 am
@cicerone imposter,
The companies who are showing good profits in the first quarter are unlikely to begin rehiring those that have been laid off. New jobs being created and rehiring is the last thing that happens in a recovery, but the Obama administration is attempting to pump some life fluid into the process. I don't know the figures of Exxon-Mobile as far as lay-offs but it's likely quite low or non-existent. Exxon is committed at least publicly to green energy, creating green jobs. It's a change of national attitude that Obama can achieve that's going to turn the economy around. Loaning the money may be a great idea, but it's the government strings that are causing these corporations to return the money, staving off the oversight that so sorely needed. Those who are ordinary wage earners who picket for the excessively wealthy to avoid a 3% tax increase -- well, there isn't enough money in the budget to open a nationwide chain of mental health clinics.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 23 Apr, 2009 10:27 am
@Lightwizard,
The national attitude towards Obama is still very positive, but they also need to see a turn-around in the job loss category. As more people lose jobs, demand for consumer goods decrease which perpetuates more job loss. I'm not worried about the big companies like Exxon, because most jobs in the US are created by small business owners.

I could never understand why "ordinary wage earners" continue to advocate for lower taxes for the most wealthy amongst us. As you say, there isn't enough money to open a chain of mental health clinics to serve them.
Woiyo9
 
  0  
Thu 23 Apr, 2009 11:06 am
@cicerone imposter,
Well, maybe us ordinary folks just happen to realize that small business owners will be able to grow their business and create jobs with a somewhat lower tax rate.
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Thu 23 Apr, 2009 11:11 am
@Woiyo9,
Also, it is much more difficult for little businesses to prosper if big business is not prospering. Big business buys a lot of stuff and utilizes and lot of services and employs a lot of people--all that provides customers and prosperity for little business who in turn adds more jobs and customers for everybody else.

Class envy may make people feel righteous, but it doesn't do a darn thing to create a healthy economy.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Thu 23 Apr, 2009 12:35 pm
I suppose there's someone who is certain that the small business owner, often a proprietorship or partnership, who makes a personal income from drawing out of the profits in excess of the amount to pay the 3% increase in taxes is willing to defer those taxes by using profits to hire more personnel. Somehow I don't think a good many of them are going to show great amounts of profit to draw from and will have to take a cut in pay, excusing them from the tax increase. Although small corporations are in basically the same boat except for paying the principals a salary, the same thing applies. Those supposing would be wrong.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Thu 23 Apr, 2009 08:32 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Also, it is much more difficult for little businesses to prosper if big business is not prospering. Big business buys a lot of stuff and utilizes and lot of services and employs a lot of people--all that provides customers and prosperity for little business who in turn adds more jobs and customers for everybody else.

Class envy may make people feel righteous, but it doesn't do a darn thing to create a healthy economy.

Right on, Foxfyre, I know people right now, quite a few, and have personal experience dealing with bigger businesses, corporations, which buy or use small businesses, and it is the big businesses that may be suffering worse, because they are slow to react, overhead is more unwieldy, and so they are not as agile to make necessary adjustments, and so they are struggling, slow to pay, and on the edges of going broke if their sources of credit dry up, and if the recession drags on, which I tend to think it will. If they go broke, it affects small businesses alot.
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Thu 23 Apr, 2009 09:27 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

Also, it is much more difficult for little businesses to prosper if big business is not prospering. Big business buys a lot of stuff and utilizes and lot of services and employs a lot of people--all that provides customers and prosperity for little business who in turn adds more jobs and customers for everybody else.

Class envy may make people feel righteous, but it doesn't do a darn thing to create a healthy economy.

Right on, Foxfyre, I know people right now, quite a few, and have personal experience dealing with bigger businesses, corporations, which buy or use small businesses, and it is the big businesses that may be suffering worse, because they are slow to react, overhead is more unwieldy, and so they are not as agile to make necessary adjustments, and so they are struggling, slow to pay, and on the edges of going broke if their sources of credit dry up, and if the recession drags on, which I tend to think it will. If they go broke, it affects small businesses alot.


You've seen it time and again in shopping malls and shopping centers. One or two big mega businesses like Wal-Mart or JC Penneys or Sears 'or Lowes anchors' the shopping center. Smaller businesses cluster around the big ones and, offering products and/or services the big store might not have, they benefit mightily from the customers attracted by the big store. Let the anchor move to someplace more profitable or go bust though, and invariably most of the little stores will do so also.

And it's the same story for the smaller contractors who depend on subcontract work from the general contractors or who depend on a local industry to buy products from and/or hire workers who then become customers for the small businesses.

You simply can't hurt the big boys without hurting the little guys.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 24 Apr, 2009 10:12 am
@Woiyo9,
Prove this claim from a credible source. Your playing mental gymnastics about an issue you understand very little about. Tax rates is not what creates jobs. You'll probably never understand why, because of your myopia.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Fri 24 Apr, 2009 10:29 am
"You simply can't hurt the big boys without hurting the little guys."

Someone is writing propaganda for Donald Trump. By the fact that the "big boys" can't buy another yacht that's built in Shanghai or Singapore? Or another luxury car built outside the US and not even making a tiny dent in the consumer index -- it's the those "little guys" buying goods that helps the economy. The fact is, the trickle down economy does not work. The money is spent on luxuries, not hiring new personnel. I know this -- I work for some of the richest people in Orange County and that's their modus operendi. They're hurt very little by small increases in taxes and decreases do not motivate them to quell the downsizing of their companies. Until consumerism in the middle class is on the rise, the economy will stay where it's at. There is no magic pill the "big boys" possess that can change that. BTW, what happened to the "big girls" and "little gals?" I'd be interested in know what tax bracket people are in who are complaining -- the actual rich people or those brainwashed by the rich people, be they the principals in the company or their friends and family. Don't believe them -- they are lying to you.

Stephen Colbert on "trickle down:"

Here's How Trickle-down Economics Works for YOU

Scenario 1: If you're "Rich"

You get lots and lots of tax breaks. You hardly have to pay any taxes at all - in fact, if you have an accountant who isn't a complete idiot, the government may even owe YOU money. Now what are you going to do with all that extra money? Let's face it - you're going to spend it right here in America, because everyone knows, rich people don't like to leave the country - especially with all those terrorists around. So, you buy yourself a new Gulfstream IV jet, (for flying around the USA), and fly around spending all that extra tax-break money right here in the good old USofA. You buy mansions all around the country (because now that you have your own jet, you can live all over the place) and you will need furniture for those mansions, and cars, and gardeners and someone to take care of the pool(s), and you'll need a car at each house, and so on. You will be spending LOTS of money because that's what rich people do with their tax breaks.

Scenario 2: If you're "Poor"

Well, you won't be poor for long, because you have lots of work. There are lots of jobs at the Gulfstream jet factory now, and you can find work constructing mansions, or building furniture for those mansions, or cleaning the pool of those mansions, or mowing the lawn of those mansions (and believe me, some of those lawns are huge). It will be like the horn-of-plenty has spilled all over you. The economy will be just bubbling with lots of new jobs and poor Americans will be well on their way to achieving the American dream (cleaning the pools of rich Americans).
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 24 Apr, 2009 11:47 am
@Lightwizard,
Scenario 3: If we get rid of all the illegal immigrants in this country, all the others will have a job.
Scenario 4: The poor in this country are too lazy to work, and they live on government handouts.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Fri 24 Apr, 2009 04:01 pm
Quote:
Commentary: Torture memos aren't criminal

SAN DIEGO, California (CNN) -- For someone who insists he is personally opposed to torture, President Obama has a rhetorical knack for it.

This week, Obama tortured the right, left and center with his parsing, hedging, and flip-flopping on newly released Bush-era torture memos and what to do about them.

Along the way, he also tortured logic and consistency, making a total mess of his own position. Only the most die-hard Obama supporters -- those who are invested to the hilt in his presidency and find it hard to see the blemishes -- could deny this.

Obama angered Republicans by releasing the confidential documents, over objections by CIA Director Leon Panetta and Bush administration officials who worried that it would telegraph to terrorists how far U.S. interrogators are permitted to go in trying to extract information.

But he also disappointed Democrats by ruling out the prosecution of interrogators who might have engaged in what some define as torture and initially suggesting that the lawyers who had advised them wouldn't be prosecuted either because, as Obama said several days ago, "this is a time for reflection, not retribution."

And then, this week, while this middle-of-the-road approach was being applauded by those in the center who smile on nuance, he flummoxed them by reversing course and suggesting that the whole matter of whether the three former Bush Justice Department lawyers who wrote the memos -- Jay Bybee, Steven Bradbury and John Yoo -- ought to be prosecuted should be decided by Attorney General Eric Holder.

Nice. And I bet you thought the two men were friends. With friends like Obama, Holder should run out and buy a flak jacket. No matter what Holder decides, he will be criticized. And for all the hay that Senate Democrats made about how former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales allegedly politicized the Justice Department, it's ironic that Obama was so quick to drag his own attorney general into a political firestorm.

Besides, how do you go about prosecuting lawyers for simply offering legal opinions when asked for them? They've broken no law.

A friend of mine who heads up an affiliate of the American Civil Liberties Union concedes that is new territory but suggests there could be a case if the opinions were intentionally fraudulent or overly ideological.

I can imagine the same argument from conservatives the next time a liberal-leaning state attorney general issues a legal opinion supporting gay marriage. Just because a lawyer comes back with an opinion you don't like doesn't make it a crime. If Holder says otherwise, good luck to him the next time he asks one of the hundreds of lawyers in his own agency for an opinion on a politically sensitive matter.

Most disturbingly of all, by passing the buck on such an important issue, Obama has fallen short on the Harry Truman leadership scale. This is precisely why we elect a president -- to deal with tough issues, the adjudication of which is never going to make everyone happy. A real leader accepts that fact going in and doesn't cower in the face of it.

For what it's worth, on the issue of torture, I've changed my own view since September 11, 2001. For several years after the terrorist attacks, I bought the argument that the United States couldn't afford to torture terror suspects.

But now, acknowledging that the Bush administration did something right in preventing more attacks, I've come around to the view that we can't afford to take any option away from interrogators as they try to prevent an attack that could cost thousands of lives.

Too many Americans keep forgetting that the threat we face is real, and unrelenting. In fact, the Bush administration claimed that just a few months after 9/11, it thwarted a planned attack on Los Angeles where al Qaeda intended to use shoe bombers to hijack an airplane and fly it into the U.S. Bank Tower, the tallest building in the city. If enhanced interrogation played a role in foiling that plot, wouldn't it have been worth the cost?

After all the bobbing and weaving this week, I'm not really sure what President Obama believes about torture or what to do with those who authorize it. And, at this point, I don't care.

All I care about is that Obama choose a position and sticks to it, and that, as commander-in-chief, he fully grasps the enormous responsibilities that came with the office.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Ruben Navarrette.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Fri 24 Apr, 2009 04:20 pm
@Ticomaya,
Snort @ Navarette and Tico -

Quote:

Too many Americans keep forgetting that the threat we face is real, and unrelenting. In fact, the Bush administration claimed that just a few months after 9/11, it thwarted a planned attack on Los Angeles where al Qaeda intended to use shoe bombers to hijack an airplane and fly it into the U.S. Bank Tower, the tallest building in the city. If enhanced interrogation played a role in foiling that plot, wouldn't it have been worth the cost?


Here's the thing - torture didn't play a role in foiling that plot.

Can't we get rid of the asinine 'enhanced interrogation' term? It's Nazi language, pure and simple, a euphemism for beatings and torture.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Fri 24 Apr, 2009 05:14 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Some people can't see the obvious; the US tortured one of those guys 183 times in one month; that translates into six times a day, and they got nothing. Torture does not work, or they wouldn't have had to torture him 183 times.

We probably damaged his brain, lungs, and probably his mental health.
DUH!
roger
 
  1  
Fri 24 Apr, 2009 06:05 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I'm still considering the whole thing, ci, but I did have the same thought.
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Fri 24 Apr, 2009 06:24 pm
@roger,
Except that a medical doctor and psychiatrist was present at all times according so some data I've seen. And I would like to see evidence that we subjected these guys to waterboarding to that degree. I don't believe it. And it was only done on three guys, each of whom the CIA had good reason to believe had information critical to national security. And, as previously posted, according to the same memos that were released, it worked. We got the necessary information.

I'm not condoning the practice or any other 'enhance practices' as a routine interrogation measure. But if it comes down to terrifying a terrorist or allowing him and/or his buddies to kill and/or maim many innocent men, women, and children, I wouldn't say no. I don't think even the most sanctimonious, self-righteous people posting on this thread would say no. And that's why the US Congress, in the uncertain times following 9/11 also didn't say no even though they were fully informed. They not only didn't say no, they were fully informed, they toured the facilities where it happened, and they continued to fund the program.

And THAT is the issue we have here. Not whether water boarding should be legal or illegal. I don't have any problem at all with outlawing it though I think it is the height of naivete and stupidity to telegraph that information to the enemy.

But the issue is whether Congress after approving and funding a program, can then presume to try to file criminal charges against those who were ordered to carry it out.

parados
 
  2  
Fri 24 Apr, 2009 06:26 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I believe it was 83 times in one month and 183 total.

But still that was about 3 times a day.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 24 Apr, 2009 06:27 pm
@Foxfyre,
That a medical doctor and a psychiatrist would be present to torture prisoners by the US is inexcusable; they should have demanded that the torturers stop immediately! They are both ignorant of both domestic and international laws against torture.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Fri 24 Apr, 2009 06:28 pm
@Foxfyre,
And of course if we could only use the mentally handicapped to test cancer treatments on, that would be worth it too. Just think of all the people we could save. Rolling Eyes

Boy it sure is easy to justify it if you only consider the people you can save.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Fri 24 Apr, 2009 06:30 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
And that's why the US Congress, in the uncertain times following 9/11 also didn't say no even though they were fully informed.

Really? Congress was informed of this following 9/11? When do you think they were informed Fox? Which members of Congress toured the facility in Thailand? Do you have any evidence to support your claim they toured the Thailand facility?
0 Replies
 
 

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