cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 18 Dec, 2006 10:36 am
nimh has a point about repitition; it worked for the Swiftboat Liars Club.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Mon 18 Dec, 2006 02:00 pm
I agree that Nimh did an excellent job of laying out political strategy in a broader sense… save the uncharacteristic Party distinctions like this one:
nimh wrote:
Republicans tend to win elections thanks to the added plus of personality - by being seen as having the more reliable, regular-guy, sturdy, etc candidate. Distracting the debate from the issues to personality is therefore automatically a plus for the Republicans -
That wasn't a Republican playing the Sax and endearing the blacks while obscuring the facts. Suggesting that likeability is a particularly Republican trait is simply inaccurate. Recent history suggests Republicans have indeed fielded the more likeable candidates, but I think that's more coincidence than conspiracy. I laid out a comparison back on: Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:45 pm Post: 1166531 -
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Worry not Deb: Blatham is my buddy and he's even now, as we speak, looking into operations so that he may one day carry my baby.

Okay... are you ready for the secret? Forget that silly political mumbo jumbo, we Americans don't care about irrelevant crap like that. The more you poor your heart about issues that really matter to you, the more you bore us to tears. Learn to play an instrument, or make a movie with a monkey! That's how you win our hearts and minds. It all comes down to who do we like more. Yes, that really is all.









Which one of these guys was more likeable? Which guy won?
http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/04/bush.kerry/top.bush.kerry.split.0804.a.jpg
Which one of these guys was more likeable? Which guy won?
http://www.greatdreams.com/bush-gore.jpg
Which one of these guys was more likeable? Which guy won?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38923000/jpg/_38923581_clinton_dole_300.jpg
Which one of these guys was most likeable? Which guy won?
http://www.debates.org/media/his92a.jpg
Which one of these guys was more likeable? Which guy won?
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/debatingourdestiny/debate_images/date_page_images/bush_dukakis.jpg
Which one of these guys was more likeable? Which guy won?
http://www.debates.org/media/his84a.jpg
Which one of these guys was more likeable? Which guy won?
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/debatingourdestiny/images/reagan_carter_photo.jpg
Which one of these guys was more likeable? Which guy won?
http://www.debates.org/media/his76.jpg

So save your serious speeches and concerns and pick the most likeable candidate you can find... and then do something useful like smoke a fat one (just don't inhale) or do some lines (just don't admit it) and have some fun! Once you understand what really matters, it should be easy to fill the order. At this juncture; I'll tell you right now; your very best bet would be to put this guy...
http://www.ift-aft.org/news/images/Obama.jpg
...on the fast track. Don't worry about his lack of experience... if you've been paying attention you should realize by now that doesn't really matter. Americans don't care about silly stuff like that.

If you think this post is just a silly joke, start over again at the top and look closely at the pics while pondering the questions that precede them. :wink:

Pity the last picture has been moved, but if you'll check its properties; you'll see I was suggesting a fast track for Obama a year before this thread began… precisely because he is likeable.

I also think your thesis confuses cause and effect.
They made fun of Edward's hair to distract the public. No; he had pretty hair so they made fun of it.
They made fun of Kerry's European stature to distract the public. No; Kerry himself presents this image so it was pointed out.
They labeled Dean Crazy to distract the public. No, they capitalized on an unfortunate gaffe on Dean's part.
They use Obama's name to associate him with Saddam. No, his name just happens to be the same. Naturally, this hasn't gone unnoticed.

The repetition portion of your thesis is spot on… but isn't diabolical in any way. It is a simple principle of sales and marketing. Say I want to advertise a product on the radio: I know going in; listeners will have to hear the commercial 3 to 5 times before they notice it and probably 10 before they actually grab a pen to get a telephone number. The more times they hear it; the more likely they are to purchase. This isn't any kind of reflection of underhandedness, mind you; the formula is the same for good products.

Overall, the thesis is very accurate, but not because of Rove's genius or the deviousness of the Republican spin machine; it is a fundamental of effective marketing technique.
nimh wrote:
It was about the end result not being that regular voters say, "oh, Barack Hussein Obama, yuck", but that after enough of this nonsense, you'll find people saying something like, "I dont know, I just dont like/trust him".
Yes, not unlike a feeling that "You deserve a break today, at McDonald's" or that inexplicable impression that somehow "BASF makes the products you buy, better." (Does anyone even know what they do?)

Further, without some periodic reminder that Hussein is supposed to be bad, I don't believe the general public will assign a negative connotation to Hussein. Do you think of Saddam when the former King of Jordan is mentioned? Do you think you would if said King was in the news daily? I seriously doubt it. John Wayne's beloved stature changed not at all after John Wayne Gacy's mass murder was revealed. Name association by itself just doesn't carry that kind of weight.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Mon 18 Dec, 2006 02:04 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
"BASF makes the products you buy, better." (Does anyone even know what they do?)


Yes, though I never would underline that slogan. :wink:
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Mon 18 Dec, 2006 07:05 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
They labeled Dean Crazy to distract the public. No, they capitalized on an unfortunate gaffe on Dean's part.

They'd labelled Dean "crazy" long before the Scream. They didnt like him, he was an outsider, he didnt play court to the established media, pundits and polit-professionals, he went outside all that. So - always looking for a narrative - they happily settled on the "crazy radical" narrative. Happily - and lazily, since any investigation into his tenure as Governor would have told them they were wrong.

OCCOM BILL wrote:
I also think your thesis confuses cause and effect.
They made fun of Edward's hair to distract the public. No; he had pretty hair so they made fun of it.

Oh, Edwards is vain allright - there was something to get him on. My point would be that:

a) The media pundits - out of laziness or political journalists' perennial, horizon-narrowing existence in the Beltway acquarium - tend to endless go for this kind of thingemy - so much easier to fit between two lengthy commercial breaks than a discussion of recent events in Fallujah, too (reason #3).

This is not, I'd argue, a ratings-driven thing; if anything, its the kind of endless Beltway bickering that regular people turn off from. I'm sure they'd be more interested in news about things that actually directly impact their life - unemployment, gas prices, whatever - but a report about the impact of unemployment costs more money and effort to produce than just inviting your regular pundit into the studio to discuss "Edwards' hair and vanity and how they will influence the upcoming debate" or such nonsense.

Just because the audience might be mildly turned off or, rather, bored by this kind of thing, doesnt, however, mean that it doesnt influence them. Nobody likes commercials either, but there's a reason why business keep buying airtime by the boatload anyway: they work.

My point here being: there is nothing inherently "logical" or "natural" in TV interviewers and pundits - not in satire shows, but in regular news shows - going on about how Kerry "looks French" for a full year. It was not a spontaneous remark - it doesnt come out of nowhere: note how both the "Breck girl" thing and the "looking French" thing were traced back, by MM, to their first appearance -- anonymously quoted Republican officials in a NYT story. These memes are not just taken up by satirists whose job it is to "make fun" of folk - its the news interviewers and commentators who kept going on about it. And its not a question of a pundit or two having a huh-realisation about it that went as fast as it came up; Edwards' Breck girl hair, Kerry's "looking French" were pursued for month after month after month.

This was why the MM piece was so instructive. There would be nothing 'only logical' or 'merely natural' about the Hussein part of Obama's name coming up more than an initial first one or two "hey, gosh" times either.

b) Selectivity. Dem candidates, in the media's eyes, are always slightly feminized - Kerry, Edwards, Gore, Dukakis, theyve all been there. Dem candidates are ridiculed, belittled. Dem candidates are flip-floppers.

These narratives dont appear from nowhere. They are not mere observations. How many times did Bush get labelled a flip-flopper over the various things he reversed course on? It doesnt fit the traditional stereotype to call those rugged Republicans flip-floppers, so any attempt to put it forward is ignored by the lazy pundits.

These are - see the Media Matters piece - often narratives launched first by smart Republican strategists, and then parroted endlessly by lazy, shallow media talking heads, grabbed at as a familiar narrative that is easily jotted down and sold. Half of it probably happens subconcsiously.

Bush, obviously, has been widely ridiculed for his (alleged) stupidity across the media - after he was elected. In the 2000 race, he got the easier end of the stick, compared with Gore. And otherwise? McCain, Dole, Bush Sr, Powell, Forbes, Giuliani? Are/were they lacking in such personal character flaws as Edwards' vanity or Kerry's elitism? Doubtful - would be quite the coincidence, wouldnt it? But have we heard endless memes about them?

I am NOT alleging any "conspiracy", thank you for not putting that in my mouth. I am trying to show the lay-out of habitual mechanisms, made up of part smear-machinery, part laziness, part commercialism, part Beltway preoccupations, part culture war, part lack of critical stamina. The nauseous proclivity of the media to ever again be baited into endlessly parroting and rechewing the latest trivial personality meme rather than doing its job and reporting on the hard news and actual issues, which works against the Democrats time and again and is aptly exploited by the Republican machine, is the product of the confluence of these things.

OCCOM BILL wrote:
They use Obama's name to associate him with Saddam. No, his name just happens to be the same. Naturally, this hasn't gone unnoticed.

In short, you are missing the point that MediaMatters pointed out here:

Quote:
Anonymity should not be invoked for a trivial comment, or to make an unremarkable comment appear portentous. But Nagourney not only granted his Republican source anonymity for the purpose of sneering that Kerry "looks French," he placed the quote immediately after a reference to Republican National Chairman Marc Racicot, who actually is of French descent!

In a sane world, Nagourney would have left his anonymous source's sophomoric name-calling out of his story. Or perhaps he would have noted the absurdist hypocrisy of Racicot's party attacking an opponent for looking French.

The fact that the media talking heads fell into the "looks French" trap, not just once, but endlessly, is more than a mere reflection of Kerry's "European stature" (whatever that is), which would have only warranted the odd mention or two. The endless repetition points to laziness; the original source points to a hardly spontaneous origin; and the failure of anyone to note that you know, the National Chairman of the party that was going on about Kerry "looking French" actually was French, points to selectivity.

You dont see any of this. You think that the Hussein thing is just a "innocent remark of something odd" thing. OK, if nobody talks about it anymore in four months time, you'll have been proven right. But having previously bought into the whole Iraq thing, back when you lambasted every liberal around for being naive and/or defeatist when they sounded the warnings that everyone's echoing now, should perhaps give you pause... perhaps we weren't the naive ones.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Tue 19 Dec, 2006 12:35 am
nimh wrote:
They'd labelled Dean "crazy" long before the Scream. They didnt like him, he was an outsider, he didnt play court to the established media, pundits and polit-professionals, he went outside all that. So - always looking for a narrative - they happily settled on the "crazy radical" narrative. Happily - and lazily, since any investigation into his tenure as Governor would have told them they were wrong.
My man Ross Perot got the exact same treatment. His Resume was incredible and his opinions sound but all you ever heard was "He's crazy and he doesn't have a chance".

nimh wrote:
a) The media pundits - out of laziness or political journalists' perennial, horizon-narrowing existence in the Beltway acquarium - tend to endless go for this kind of thingemy - so much easier to fit between two lengthy commercial breaks than a discussion of recent events in Fallujah, too (reason #3).
Yep. They suck.

nimh wrote:
b) Selectivity. Dem candidates, in the media's eyes, are always slightly feminized - Kerry, Edwards, Gore, Dukakis, theyve all been there.
Dem candidates generally are slightly feminine. Don't believe it?
Abortion: Pro-Choice favors women... Pro-Life favors men.
War: Rather testosterone driven, no?
Same sex marriage: Hello

To offset this predictable trend: Who gets labeled stupid? Who gets labeled liar? Bush, Reagan, Nixon, etc. Is it not true that college professors are mostly Liberal Democrats? Is the mean education level of Democrats not higher than that of Republicans? Which party more frequently claims to be the champion of truth?

In all likelihood, if Bush contradicted himself in exactly the same way Kerry did... he'd be labeled liar, not flip-flopper.

What do both groups of stereotyping victims have in common?... to some extent, each are guilty. Most stereotypes are founded in truth.

nimh wrote:
Bush, obviously, has been widely ridiculed for his (alleged) stupidity across the media - after he was elected. In the 2000 race, he got the easier end of the stick, compared with Gore. And otherwise? McCain, Dole, Bush Sr, Powell, Forbes, Giuliani? Are/were they lacking in such personal character flaws as Edwards' vanity or Kerry's elitism? Doubtful - would be quite the coincidence, wouldnt it? But have we heard endless memes about them?
Dole had plenty of legitimate baggage, Bush Sr. was Reagan-light, Powell was universally respected, and Forbes was and continues to be labeled a nut like Dean and Perot. Giuliani? Be patient. He's not getting press like Obama yet. Look at your McCain Giuliani thread. It's roughly as old as this one, but has gotten about 20% of the attention.

I should also note that I don't remember Edwards' "Breck girl" or Kerry's French connection being all that prominent… surely not nearly as dominant as the Bush/Cheney "stupid-liar" thing at any point. Perhaps its just a matter of increased consciousness when its your preferred candidate… like the way you always notice all the other people driving the same make of car as you when you first get it.

nimh wrote:
You dont see any of this. You think that the Hussein thing is just a "innocent remark of something odd" thing. OK, if nobody talks about it anymore in four months time, you'll have been proven right.
Nimh, most Americans pay very little attention to politics. People who know me think I'm an obsessed political junky. Imagine what they'd think of you and Soz. Shocked I'd wager 75% of the country doesn't remember hearing the "Breck girl" or "looks French" things even once. The "stupid-liar" thing on the other hand, I'd wager they can't remember the last time they went 3 days without hearing. I can not imagine what's led you to believe that this is a Republican thing. I'll grant you the Republicans have done a better job of it for the last two and a half decades... but your insistence that it's Republican domain is very uncharacteristic of... well... Nimh.

nimh wrote:
But having previously bought into the whole Iraq thing, back when you lambasted every liberal around for being naive and/or defeatist when they sounded the warnings that everyone's echoing now, should perhaps give you pause... perhaps we weren't the naive ones.
Smile You guys sure are sure enjoying that little I told you so. Perhaps you'll remember that I'm not among those who thought it would go smooth and only ever considered Iraq a good start. I remain convinced it was work that needed to be done, and further believe there's much left to do, so you might consider saving that sentiment for someone more worthy ( or convinced it was a mistake). I will admit the going has been rougher than I thought it would be, but, still infinitely smoother than many liberals predicted. Remember all the WW3 predictions?
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Tue 19 Dec, 2006 03:43 am
LITTLE?


Hmmmmm...whatever.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Tue 19 Dec, 2006 08:40 am
Obill writes
Quote:
I should also note that I don't remember Edwards' "Breck girl" or Kerry's French connection being all that prominent… surely not nearly as dominant as the Bush/Cheney "stupid-liar" thing at any point. Perhaps its just a matter of increased consciousness when its your preferred candidate… like the way you always notice all the other people driving the same make of car as you when you first get it.


Not just the 'stupid-liar' thing but the drunken driver thing, the 'golden spoon' daddy's coattails thing, the stoned on drugs thing, the AWOL thing, the religion thing, and lets don't forget that few stories were written without the oil companies/Halliburton buddies thing being thrown in. And these weren't the least bit teasing in fun kinds of things.

The media attention Obama is getting is rock star stuff now in comparison no matter what anybody tries to do with the name.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 19 Dec, 2006 08:43 am
Quote:
Pro-Choice favors women... Pro-Life favors men.


Not inherently. If abortion were illegal, that would negatively impact a whole lot of men, too. Not every man wants the baby he unwittingly created (or wants to support that baby).
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Tue 19 Dec, 2006 08:58 am
Foxfyre wrote:


Not just the 'stupid-liar' thing but the drunken driver thing, the 'golden spoon' daddy's coattails thing, the stoned on drugs thing, the AWOL thing, the religion thing, and lets don't forget that few stories were written without the oil companies/Halliburton buddies thing being thrown in. And these weren't the least bit teasing in fun kinds of things.



All those things you mention are fair game when it coms to criticizing someone running for President those are all "in-bounds" so to speak. Criticiizing the twins moght be out of bpunds, criticiizing Laura for killing someone is out of bounds, making fun of the way a minor daughter of a candidate/president looks (Limbaugh/Chelsea Clinton ) is way outbounds and slamming someone becauseof his name is out of bounds too.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Tue 19 Dec, 2006 12:05 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Obill writes
Quote:
I should also note that I don't remember Edwards' "Breck girl" or Kerry's French connection being all that prominent… surely not nearly as dominant as the Bush/Cheney "stupid-liar" thing at any point. Perhaps its just a matter of increased consciousness when its your preferred candidate… like the way you always notice all the other people driving the same make of car as you when you first get it.


Not just the 'stupid-liar' thing but the drunken driver thing, the 'golden spoon' daddy's coattails thing, the stoned on drugs thing, the AWOL thing, the religion thing, and lets don't forget that few stories were written without the oil companies/Halliburton buddies thing being thrown in. And these weren't the least bit teasing in fun kinds of things.

The media attention Obama is getting is rock star stuff now in comparison no matter what anybody tries to do with the name.


bill

The acute (acuter?) perceptiveness in relation to one's preferences or biases is clearly part of how we perceive (or miss) these things. Striving for objectivity and objective measures/criteria seems worthwhile here as always.

Also, unless we are content to remain unaware of being manipulated (and content to remain unaware of our own below-the-surface unquestioned assumptions and biases) I think it's a very good thing to take apart these public relations gambits and view the guts of them. Not only do we steel ourselves against manipulation but we also gain a dependable tool for assessing the integrity, ethics and honesty in the motives of those attempting the manipulating.

For example, Goebbels (following earlier examples) associated jews with rodents. When you see an attempt to associate persons with animals (particularly unpleasant animals) you know they are up to no good. Like when folks are described as living or plotting in "nests".

The American cultural context allows some particular negative associations. The French and the "Breck" examples suggest effeminacy and elitism. This is a constant in the negative PR arising from the right in describing dems and it will be contrasted with tough, militarist, shirtsleeves-rolled-up, practical man (recall the instructions that the FEMA director got from his PR person during Katrina to roll up his sleeves for tv appearances). And, of course, others like the Willy Horton/dangerous black man thing which you won't see in a European context. In terms of these negative associations, the new kid on the block is cuthroat arab islamist.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Tue 19 Dec, 2006 02:02 pm
Roxxxanne wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:


Not just the 'stupid-liar' thing but the drunken driver thing, the 'golden spoon' daddy's coattails thing, the stoned on drugs thing, the AWOL thing, the religion thing, and lets don't forget that few stories were written without the oil companies/Halliburton buddies thing being thrown in. And these weren't the least bit teasing in fun kinds of things.



All those things you mention are fair game when it coms to criticizing someone running for President those are all "in-bounds" so to speak. Criticiizing the twins moght be out of bpunds, criticiizing Laura for killing someone is out of bounds, making fun of the way a minor daughter of a candidate/president looks (Limbaugh/Chelsea Clinton ) is way outbounds and slamming someone becauseof his name is out of bounds too.


I've been working too hard, lately. I just agreed with Roxxxanne. I better lie down for a few minutes.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Tue 19 Dec, 2006 02:43 pm
I would agree too PROVIDED they aren't made up accusations to smear somebody. Which most of those things were. But when they're thrown into a news story or a message board post or conversation matter-of-factly as if they were a done deal, long after they have been proved groundless or before they have been proved to have validity, they are every bit as much a subliminal message as anything else done to create a negative image in the mind of the voters.

Explore them, debate them, yes. But use them dishonestly as a propaganda tool, no.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Tue 19 Dec, 2006 05:31 pm
sozobe wrote:
Quote:
Pro-Choice favors women... Pro-Life favors men.


Not inherently. If abortion were illegal, that would negatively impact a whole lot of men, too. Not every man wants the baby he unwittingly created (or wants to support that baby).
The operative words in Nimh's complaint were "slightly feminized". I was only establishing that pro choice leans in that direction. I think it's only an issue because congress is made up mostly of men. If men had to carry babies and make the choices; abortions would be easier to get than a hotdog at a baseball game, and there would be little serious debate about it.

Foxy provided a valid counterbalance to the subliminal nature of political discourse we're discussing. My biggest objection to the MM piece is that it falsely places the technique in the Republican domain, instead of the overall political domain. That Roxanne and her ilk see it that way surprises me not at all. That Nimh and Soz seem to agree that it's a Republican thing surprises me a lot.

Three years ago: The Right practically begged Kerry/Edwards to establish solid political platforms instead of relying mostly on ABB rhetoric; and they largely failed to do so. This left less, of substance, open to attack... so it probably exaggerated the effect of the petty attacks. The Right, on the other hand offered a plethora of things to attack, so the Left didn't need be so inventive. (Before anyone asks; Yes, need. Sadly, you get more mileage out of negative campaigning.)(If he's clever enough; Obama may be able to spin away from that, being as he hasn't as of yet had to rely on it much. Idea)
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Tue 19 Dec, 2006 05:43 pm
I actually believe Obama is above trying any nasty-type campaigning.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 19 Dec, 2006 05:49 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
That Nimh and Soz seem to agree that it's a Republican thing surprises me a lot.


Eh?

Of course this is a Republican tactic. You say so yourself later on:

Quote:
Three years ago: The Right practically begged Kerry/Edwards to establish solid political platforms instead of relying mostly on ABB rhetoric; and they largely failed to do so.


This, by the way, was a pet peeve of mine from the 2004 elections. Yes, the information was out there, plain to see and plain to hear for everyone. I spent a lot of time pointing to websites and quoting things that had in fact been said. The idea that there were no "solid political platforms" was a talking point, itself.

Quote:
This left less, of substance, open to attack... so it probably exaggerated the effect of the petty attacks. The Right, on the other hand offered a plethora of things to attack, so the Left didn't need be so inventive.


What is this but that Democrats attack substance while Republicans choose a line of attack built on petty distractions? Credit for inventiveness, yes, but also blame for dumbing down the discourse.

I won't say that all Republicans do the stupid petty stuff or that no Democrats do. I think that in recent political history it's slanted more towards Republicans doing the smearing and the petty stuff though, yes, and you are saying the same, above.

Quote:
(If he's clever enough; Obama may be able to spin away from that, being as he hasn't as of yet had to rely on it much. Idea)


I think spinning away from that will be a centerpiece of his campaign. He has long been about the idea of being proactive, elevating things beyond the ridiculousless divisiveness and pettiness that's been the name of the game in American politics for way too long. As I said in the convention conversation I recently linked to; positivity, man.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Tue 19 Dec, 2006 06:18 pm
The thing is, when our personal views are expressed by others, we are not offended. And when what we do not believe or do not want to believe is expressed by others, we are often offended. And we tend to notice more when our own ox is gored than when it happens to the neighbor's ox.

Whatever is more the Republicans or more the Democrats doing any 'smearing' re any particular issue or any particular candidate is most likely going to be in the eye of the beholder.

If Obama is able to bring that sort of thing to a halt and actually effect open, honest, and civil debate on the issues, however, I'll vote for him for President or King or head angel. I'm not going to hold my breath, however, nor should anybody be surprised if he is persuaded to resort to some negative campaigning himself.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Tue 19 Dec, 2006 07:20 pm
Soz, my example of the last Presidential election was to demonstrate that the phenomenon was more incidental than indicative of either party's innocence. They are both guilty as sin of using the same tactics... mostly because they are effective.

I'm well aware of your denial, and distain for the forwarding of the opinion that the left was mostly campaigning on ABB lines, but I maintain it was a talking point because of it's concrete foundation in observable fact. Obscure pronouncement's that Kerry will magically bring the world community around isn't a solid platform. Most of his energy was spent explaining he wouldn't be Bush. Whether this interpretation sits well with you or not, it remains my opinion.

I agree with Foxy's latest example as well. Perhaps, since I hold both Kerry and Bush, moreover... both the Democratic and Republican parties in contempt; it's easier for me to see the parallel in their respective sleaze machines. I could just as easily forward the same arguments when the Republicans are whining about Democrat's tactics… and have.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 19 Dec, 2006 07:26 pm
Of one thing I agree: both uses sleaze to win votes. What is more interesting (to me) is the sleaze used against McCain by his own party.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Tue 19 Dec, 2006 07:35 pm
I've mostly stayed out of this because I think it's fruitless, particularly between Blatham and Foxfyre. It hits respective deeply-entrenched positions that aren't going to budge. Blatham sees the cogs of the Republican machine turning, turning everywhere -- I agree with him to a point but only to a point. (I agreed with nimh re: the Hillary/ Obama cartoon; "disgusting, really?") I do think that straightforward pointing-out of tactics -- which is what started this tangent -- is perfectly appropriate and doesn't deserve the cries of "offended" and "oversensitive" and the rest. Recognition ≠ oversensitivity.

Negative campaigning is part of politics, of course. I think that all that is useful at this point is to note if we see other examples of it re: Obama. We can then debate whether those instances are engineered or organic, whether it will hurt him or not, etc.

For my part, a large part of my fondness for Obama as a candidate and my hopes for his viability (see my first post) is that he will personify a movement away from that kind of thing, if only temporarily. Specifically, what I would like to see and wouldn't be too surprised to see is if he stays above the fray entirely, and that mud thrown his way will miss him but splatter back in the faces of the mud-throwers.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 19 Dec, 2006 07:38 pm
sozobe, I agree with your assessment as to what will happen to those who throw mud at Obama.
0 Replies
 
 

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