McTag
 
  1  
Sat 21 Mar, 2009 04:13 am
@georgeob1,

Following on from comments made earlier, about the efficiency of military techniques employed in Afghanistan, you may be interested to read this, a lengthy but absorbing article from yesterday's paper.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/20/afghanistan-nato

Quote:
The reference to knocking down doors at night is clear to anyone who has spent more than a couple of days here. It is a dig at US special forces, who have a reputation for raiding Afghan houses in the middle of the night, on the basis of intelligence that can be accurate or inaccurate, causing a disproportionate number of civilian casualties.

"The special forces are playing a damaging and negative role. They operate outside the chain of command, going in and doing raids without any coordination," a senior western aid official tells me. Nothing is eroding support for foreign forces faster. A UN report last month said the number of civilian casualties in 2008 was up 40% on the previous year at 2,118. A little more than half were killed by the Taliban and other insurgents, mostly with roadside and suicide bombs. The rest were killed by Isaf.

The difference is that while the Taliban are actually trying to kill civilians, Isaf appears to be killing almost as many by accident - some in special forces raids, but 64% as a result of air strikes. Some of those strikes are assassination attempts against "high-value" insurgent leaders, but others are in support of troops on the ground engaged in battle. That is relatively uncontroversial when ground forces find themselves outnumbered or surrounded and are trying to save their own lives.

More troubling is the practice of calling in a strike on an Afghan qala (the high-walled mud-brick houses that look like mini-forts and are the norm here), from where western forces suspect they are taking fire but are reluctant to storm for fear of suffering casualties. Every time a qala is demolished from above, and families inevitably perish, more recruits are driven towards the Taliban.

"We are fighting a lot of people we don't have to be fighting," the western aid official says.

georgeob1
 
  1  
Sat 21 Mar, 2009 05:15 am
@McTag,
I had to search a bit to find the post to which you were replying, but finally succeeded, and do recall the dialogue. I also read the cited article from the Guardian.

Even the article noted the many contradictions present - German troops won't do foot patrols, and even the Poles touted in the article finally fell into a deadly firefight the origins of which are in dispute. The tactics of the U.S. special forces that are so criticized in "knocking down doors at night" don't appear to have any relationship to your earlier comment about the excessive use of air strikes or artillery.

So instead I reread the article, this time looking for common threads that might unite or illuminate its meaning. What struck me mostly was (1) the revulsion the author expressed for all things American - from the size and extent of Bagram airbase to the "Ameican" food provided by KBR, to the grafitti on latrine walls; etc. and (2) the absense of any suggested alternative.

In short this was simply a tidbit of easily produced journalistic irony: it creates the illusion of insightful analysis, but is basically without meaning. (That, however, might represent a higher truth - the disorderly mosaic of distinct national enclaves, all operating under the myth of a unified NATO command, may well be the essential reality of our collective "effort" in Afghanistan.)

By the way, one of the many frustrations in the American military with NATO is the long-term unwillingness of our allies to provide for the logistical support of their own troops. One way to evade the excesses of KBR food & ice cream is to provide your own.

0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Sun 22 Mar, 2009 08:35 am
Obviously, there are clear implications for Obama's policies in the middle east from the piece I'll link below. Which allows me to link it on this thread, according to Thread Rule 17b, subsection iii.

I'm addressing this mainly to you, george, as a religious person with a military background who likely has some thoughts on a similar (though surely less significant) phenomenon within the present US military (evangelists, in this case) and as someone who usually thinks fairly clearly on mid-east issues (where neither the Sec Def nor the Pope are central players).

This story has begun to emerge in Israel over the last few days though two days ago when I checked, Ha'aretz apparently wasn't touching it (haven't looked yet today). It is to me, a very worrisome matter not only as regards Israel's future and continued existence but as regards consequences for America's association with the state and with the broader middle east.

The first link is to today's NY Times piece, the second is to my blog and a post there on this matter. You can respond here or there, it doesn't matter to me either way. Of course, comments from anyone else are welcome so longs as they abide by the thread rule cited above.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/22/weekinreview/22BRONNER.html?pagewanted=1&ref=weekinreview

http://bernielatham.com/2009/03/21/israel-america-iran-and-their-three-insane-gods/
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 24 Mar, 2009 11:53 am
@blatham,
blatham, Interesting article; showing that the Jews are turning their aggression against Palestinians as a "holy war." So, what else is new? They say, "show no mercy."

Another religious war that treats other humans as their enemy based on their religious beliefs. How sad.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Tue 24 Mar, 2009 04:51 pm
@blatham,
Bernie,

Thanks for the reference to the article - interesting.

While there is a parallelism between the religiously motivated expressions of intolerance towards the Palestinians among some Israelis; the religious fervor of some American evangelicals who are among their most ardent supporters in this country; and the more or less equivalent religious ardor among some of their Palestinian opponents, I believe it is both contrary to the relevant facts of history and a mistake to consider this conflict as one arising out of religion.

Like the now nearly resolved "religious" conflict in Northern Ireland, the struggle is one over economic power and political control between have and have not groups: the religious labals are convenient and fairly reliable but not the root cause of the conflict.

In this context it is noteworthy that the crucial steps that Israel has taken along a road that has led themselves from self defense to perpetual oppression, expansion and ethnic cleansing, were all taken and led by the very generation of socialist humanist secular Jews (many from the Kibbutz movement) whom you extolled, and who stood in stark contrast to the contemporary religious zealots who were a subject of the article. Here of ocurse I refer to the steps taken immediately after the 1967 war by the then Socialist government of Israel, then led by Golda Maier, and significantly reinforced by the Likud party under the leadership of yet another notable secular humanist Israeli leader Menachem begin, who was also a former leader of the terrorist Stern Gang. These steps were the self-described "perpetual military occupation of the western border of the West Bank, cutting it off permanently from potential reunion with Jordan; the forty year military occupation of the West bank; and the Israeli decision to (1) systematically occupy increasing areas of the West Bank with Jewish settlers, and (2) to exclude the Palestinian population there from any political role whatever in the affairs of the state that now controlled their lives. Everything that is going on there today and all of the continuing conflict is traceable to those tragic and fateful steps. They were all the work of secular humanist, and in many cases socialist, Israelis.

That in the ensuing conflict a class of religiously motivated zealots, many recent immigrants from Russia and among the occupiers of settlements in the West Bank should arise to support this awful policy is no surprise given the conditions that exist there. However to suggest that this state of mind is what created the ghastly situation in Palestine is simply contrary to the facts.

I recognize that such an assumption fits nicely in some of your own preconceptions with respect to belief in a diety or religion. However, as we have since discovered the somewhat analogous (and now nearly resolved) "religious" conflict in Norther Ireland has revealed itself to have been about everything except religion. It too was about the division of economic and political power between peoples of distinct cultures who could rather easily be distinguished by religion. The settlement and the attendant beginnings of tolerance and mutual respect were accomplished by steps toward the achievement of political and economic equality -- the religious differences persist but they don't impact the peace anymore than they caused the conflict.
blatham
 
  2  
Wed 25 Mar, 2009 09:32 pm
@georgeob1,
George
Nice to chat.

I've read your response and it's important to note that I read it backwards first just to protect myself in the event their might be any hidden subliminal messages, like "Believe...believe" or "Boy is your ass gonna fry". The message was clean. So, we can proceed.

Now, perhaps you'd forgotten, in the brisk wind that blows over your face as you steam ahead wherever it is you're going to just so long as you're going, that you were talking to me. What are the chances I'm going to let you get away with this ****. It's not like I don't recognize it. I recall wondering once in a dreamy moment that you'd long ago been a bugler and some swarthy Italian drunk slapped you on the back and you swallowed that bugle. Ever since, when you speak...

The work you go to in order to miss the point is... it's like Barishikof could find cause to admire much in it. Let's skip Israel and get to the issue.

The lead, or thesis sentence, heading the final graph (there oughta be an emoticon to indicate 'smug'). You could have saved yourself the typing. But you were steaming ahead, brisk wind in the face, and another sailor watching can admire the zest in your voyage even while knowing the destination hasn't a single tree standing and has been over-run by the very worst sort of native.

Here it is:
Quote:
I recognize that such an assumption fits nicely in some of your own preconceptions with respect to belief in a diety or religion.


First, there's the matter of 'preconceptions'. Interesting word, actually, containing that same counter-intuitive understanding of the universe as considering it having once never been before there was a time dimension. As a teenage boy, I loved getting tangled up in that one because Erika wouldn't let me get tangled up with her so there was Einstein, best mental **** in town, I'd been told.

But, I've run on. "Preconceiving". Let's narrow in.

Diety, belief in. OK, now this is how it is between him and me. Or her. Or it. If you're there, howdy. If you are a barbaric, torturous bastard, whose going to pick out a small group of smelly goat-herders and lay somebody else's land on them, then you and I don't have anything to talk about. And you still won't if you send me to the second level of hell and waterboard me for longer than a bad opera lasts, then I'm still not interested. Unless, this is important, you then see to it I get a ******* good lawyer and get off and go home to my family who I appreciate more than ever. That might work. Then, we could talk.

And that, was the point of my post that you ignored. Brisk wind in the face.

But, as I said. Nice chatting with you, george.
blatham
 
  2  
Wed 25 Mar, 2009 09:50 pm
ps...if you are chatting with that McTag individual, would you please pass on my greetings. He and his wife are anorak-types of the top drawer level. Thomas arrives here Saturday for a contractually-stipulated number of days. I look forward to it. Jane is away and that leaves open the option for Thomas and I to try on some of her clothing.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Wed 25 Mar, 2009 11:39 pm
@blatham,
Good to hear from you Bernie.

"brisk wind that blows over your face as you steam ahead " ... interesting and perhaps perceptive insight on your part. I had thought for a day about how to answer your post without fully organizing my ideas. I finally wrote it very quickly and without stopping even for a moment, just after returning home from an extended lunch with some good friends in the city club, accompanied by about four glasses of wine. I was tipsy but focused. I really did try to address the points you made as accurately and forcefully (my nature, you know) as I could. Did I miss the point? I don't think so.

I think the issue at hand is whether religious people or merely believers in a diety are more intolerant or given to oppression than non-believers; and, if so does the continuing continuing conflict in Palestine illustrate the phenomenon?

I believe history provides us with a treasure trove of examples of oppression and intolerance done by people and political systems of all types - and, at least in modern times it has been the secular ones that have been by far the worst and most pervasive. Certainly they have not been notably nicer than their believing cousins. Moreover, as I attempted to illustrate, many nominally "religious" conflicts (such as that in Palestine and the analogous one in Ireland) are in fact about everything but religion - though even there some religious folk (Ian Paisley comes to mind) certainly did their bit to keep it going. In the Arab-Zionist conflict, until very recently, it was secular leaders and governments on both sides who were the principal antagonists.

If I struck a nerve with the term, "preconceptions" I apologize. My intent wasn't to offend, belittle or even be (knowingly) smug. I like ideas and proibably do get carried away by the force of them.

I do concede without reservation that many American evangelicals do exhibit an unpleasant tendency towards intolerance and, in addition, rationalize it with some rather odd (in my view) "religious" concepts and prejudgements. However, I consider them to be a marginal (if fairly large) thing, quite unrelated to me or anything I believe to be important (though I suspect the Rev. Paisley likes them).

I sincerely hope you are well and content. I have been working to replace a meeting in Washington with one in San Diego so I could join Thomas and Calamity Jane for a hike. However, I now find that an issue I had been pushing will be the main focus of the Washington thing and I am stuck on my own petard.

Where the hell are you in Oregon??

All the best,
georgeob1
 
  1  
Wed 25 Mar, 2009 11:47 pm
@blatham,
I had to look up anorak.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Thu 26 Mar, 2009 07:13 am
Quote:
...the prime minister of the country that holds the rotating presidency lambasted President Barack Obama's emergency stimulus package as "a way to hell" that will "undermine the stability of the global financial market."


Quote:
"It is a very strange and curious view of a Czech prime minister whose government was just ousted from office," Mr. Paroubek said in an interview. "In my view, it is also extremely impolite and undiplomatic toward President Obama, who we will host in less than two weeks time."


(Paroubeck is the leader of the opposition party in the Czech Parliament)

Not sure what Topolanek being politcally defeated in his country has to do with the substance of the comment. I suppose it could be a way for him to draw attention to himself and rouse euro-centric populist support, but then again, it could be what he really believes, and he could be right.

Quote:
Mr. Topolanek is not alone in his concern that Mr. Obama's stimulus package will put a huge strain on global financial markets. German officials have also criticized the evolving American program, and in general European nations have refused to create fiscal stimulus programs anything close to that of the United States, which will push the U.S. budget deficit this year to 10 percent or more of gross domestic product. They argue that European conditions are different and that too much extra money will lead quickly to inflation.


The Europeans tend to be more sensitive to the dangers of inflation than the US, but it doesn't mean those dangers shouldn't be feared.

http://iht.com/articles/2009/03/25/europe/union.php

nimh
 
  3  
Thu 26 Mar, 2009 08:39 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:
Do I think Bush would have been crucified for making the same statement?
Yes, I do.

However, Obama said it, not Bush.

Also, Obama actually apologised for it. When did Bush ever apologize for anything?
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Thu 26 Mar, 2009 09:12 am
@nimh,
Hard to say since I don't recall President Bush ever making a gaffe like that while President Obama seems to be pretty prone to them. President Bush didn't apologize for his mangling of the English language and explanations of stuff because it was simply mangling and not offensive and no apology was warrented, but all the gaffes I've seen of his relate to such mangling.

I can't imagine that President Bush would not have issued an immediate apology if he thought that he had inadvertently insulted somebody inappropriately.

Would either he or President Obama do so if they were not informed that something they said was inadvertently offensive?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Thu 26 Mar, 2009 09:32 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Hard to say since I don't recall President Bush ever making a gaffe like that while President Obama seems to be pretty prone to them.



...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 26 Mar, 2009 09:40 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
But, Finn, inflation is a very effective method of transferring wealth from those who have it to those who don't.

The rendering of the painful high level of the initial long-term loan repayments to those who loaned the money, the haves, leaving aside the agents who facilitate these transactions, into pin-money in a few years results in such a transfer.

I knew a chap who bought a house for £200 in 1938 on a 30year mortgage and who had his repayments suspended for the six years he was in the services during the war who found himself by the mid-sixties with a house worth £2000 and repayments less than the price of a pack of cigarettes per week. His good fortune was at the expense of those who provided his loan.

It is generally recognised that Mr Obama represents the have nots, some in the biological field as well it is rumoured, and it would therefore make sound political sense, particularly with the have nots being the largest section of voters, and having youthful aspirations, for him to give inflation a good blow on the bellows.

Once the aspiring younger end have settled in to their almost free houses and tarted up the environs it is easy for them to elect a Mrs Thatcher type to put a stop to such nonsense and prevent those following on from them, their own kids, from shafting them in like manner.

PS- for those perplexed by the exchanges between Bernie and George it might be useful to remind readers here that they represent the triumph of culture over structure which is a feature of our civilisation at this time. The posts are a sort of symbolic literary code as A2K is not conducive to visible significations of rank such as dress or manners or personal conduct which are ascriptive of rank in a cultural setting as opposed to the role kinship patterns play in a structured setting. Bureaucracies provide an element of structure in the modern world and are not unlike, in many respects, those primitive societies where structure dominates. But our protagonists are not members of the same bureaucracy.

In a structured society there are relationships and in a culture society there are encounters. A man might choose, and choice is endemic in culture societies, to have an encounter, as suggested, with ladies garments but one can hardly have a dignified relationship with them when one sports a beard, hairy spindly legs and a bald pate. Whether Thomas brings those to an arrangement of the sort envisaged I don't know but if he doesn't it might be possible to achieve a compromise.

The main thing though, to stay on topic, is that in a culture society so advanced as to have got around to its leading intellectuals envisaging encounters with ladies garments, with or without the permission of the lady or the specifications of which garments, the language, and the symbols of magnificence it is easily capable of bearing, employed become crucial.

Comprehension is shifted from the context, two complex nations in conflict, to the communication itself. The whole burden of the message is that culture has entirely replaced structure which is odd when the conflict putatively under discussion is between two social systems where structure remains an important consideration and, as such, virtually incomprehensible to highly cultured disputants.

40-15 to George is my score. But I am biased towards "city clubs" and getting pissed.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Thu 26 Mar, 2009 11:49 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Hard to say since I don't recall President Bush ever making a gaffe like that while President Obama seems to be pretty prone to them. President Bush didn't apologize for his mangling of the English language and explanations of stuff because it was simply mangling and not offensive and no apology was warrented, but all the gaffes I've seen of his relate to such mangling.

I can't imagine that President Bush would not have issued an immediate apology if he thought that he had inadvertently insulted somebody inappropriately.

Would either he or President Obama do so if they were not informed that something they said was inadvertently offensive?


I think your'e being a bit unfair here. Obama's "gaffe" was something anyone might have done and fairly clearly was not intended to offend. Bush's many malaprops and mangled phrases were much maligned and mocked by the press, and while they too weren't intended to offend, they certainly did harm his effectiveness as president. In both cases the media make a big deal out of it just to sell their wares.
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Thu 26 Mar, 2009 12:17 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

Hard to say since I don't recall President Bush ever making a gaffe like that while President Obama seems to be pretty prone to them. President Bush didn't apologize for his mangling of the English language and explanations of stuff because it was simply mangling and not offensive and no apology was warrented, but all the gaffes I've seen of his relate to such mangling.

I can't imagine that President Bush would not have issued an immediate apology if he thought that he had inadvertently insulted somebody inappropriately.

Would either he or President Obama do so if they were not informed that something they said was inadvertently offensive?


I think your'e being a bit unfair here. Obama's "gaffe" was something anyone might have done and fairly clearly was not intended to offend. Bush's many malaprops and mangled phrases were much maligned and mocked by the press, and while they too weren't intended to offend, they certainly did harm his effectiveness as president. In both cases the media make a big deal out of it just to sell their wares.


I haven't criticized President Obama for the gaffe actually because I do allow people leeway in that kind of thing. We all probably say stuff that we would take back or phrase differently given a chance.

President Obama does seem to stick his foot in his mouth an awful lot. Clinging to guns and religion. . . . Racist attitude of his white grandmother being typical etc.

I don't think George Bush was often if ever found guilty of that kind of unintentional 'insensitivity' and my point was that, if he had been, there is no reason to think that he wouldn't have apologized. President Bush lacked a lot of President Obama's political savvy and he had some that President Obama lacks.

I was just responding to Nimh's comment that at least Obama apologized and George Bush never did.

And I am admittedly a bit sensitive to that kind of thing when Democrats are so often excused or their insensitive or politically incorrect gaffes are blown off while Republicans are accused of all sorts of stupid stuff and/or are condemned ad nauseum for their gaffes/mistatements and even required to give up jobs, committee appointments, various government positions as a result of them, etc.

Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Thu 26 Mar, 2009 12:26 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:


President Obama does seem to stick his foot in his mouth an awful lot. Clinging to guns and religion. . . . Racist attitude of his white grandmother being typical etc.


These are political gaffes, but that doesn't make them untrue. Both of these statements are perfectly true.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Thu 26 Mar, 2009 03:15 pm
Going to take more, but a step in the right direction.

McTag
 
  1  
Thu 26 Mar, 2009 03:19 pm
@blatham,

Quote:
ps...if you are chatting with that McTag individual, would you please pass on my greetings. He and his wife are anorak-types of the top drawer level


Anorak? I'm more of a comfortable, if a little threadbare, old sweater I'd say.
Greetings however, warmly received and reciprocated.
roger
 
  1  
Thu 26 Mar, 2009 03:55 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Ya think?

Quote:
By YOCHI J. DREAZEN
WASHINGTON " The Obama administration will unveil a new Afghanistan strategy Friday that calls for devoting significant new resources to counter-narcotics efforts in Afghanistan and economic development in Pakistan, according to senior U.S. officials.


I would rather hear more about counter-terrorist efforts, myself. Not saying there's no relationship, but we may need to sharpen the focus.
 

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