JTT
 
  1  
Tue 24 Feb, 2009 09:37 pm
@genoves,
Quote:
I really believe that the left's frantic drive to increase the tax burden on the top 10% stems from ENVY. They are jealous that they have not achieved as much as the top 10%

Among the most envious are people like Cyclops. As an academic,he probably agrees with his colleagues that academics are the most brilliant people around and that the world would bebetter off it they, the academics, were running things.


You really don't need to strive so hard to be so predictably stupid?
0 Replies
 
candide
 
  0  
Tue 24 Feb, 2009 09:38 pm
I got about 2 min into the speech and realized it's the same speech over and over.

Execute Policy! We don't need another lame ass speech or to see you posing for vanity fair.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Tue 24 Feb, 2009 09:38 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
During the president's speech, MSNBC had this "audience reaction" meter for both McCain voters and Obama voters, represented by red and blue lines.

The dial has been consistently pinned to the top, so the red and blue are almost making things purple


politicians have titillation down to a science, problem is that in recent memory the emotion of the moment has had virtually no relationship with the reality of our lives.....
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Tue 24 Feb, 2009 09:42 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

okie wrote:

Obama made a few decent statements, I will give you that, but the speech does not change the reality of what is happening in regard to spending and all the other policies.


Yeah, yeah. This is like you saying you loved it! Smile

Cycloptichorn

No I didn't love it. He said a couple things I could almost agree with, such as don't drop out of high school, and fail yourself and your country. As in any situation you would hope for something better, I can still hope he delivers something good, maybe he can convince the black community to study and not drop out of school, that would be nice.

He said again there were no earmarks in the stimulus bill, which is a crock, the entire thing is equivalent to a jillion earmarks.

And he kept making grand statements about being accountable, he would demand it, and all that, when the process he is setting in motion will be a grab bag of total unaccountability, alot of waste, so all of his grand statements are pretty hollow in my opinion. What he doesn't understand is that when you central plan something, the nature of the beast does not allow him to make it more efficient, it just is not, but he doesn't see this. Yet he made a statement about believing in smaller government, I thought I heard that, I could be wrong, but I thought what a crock, he doesn't believe in smaller government, as in the same speech he made grand pronouncements of universal health care in the next year.

And after the introduction, I thought the reception of his speech was rather mediocre.

No, I did not like the speech, but compared to other Obama speeches, it wasn't bad. I just don't like the substance, and I don't believe half of what he says.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 24 Feb, 2009 09:46 pm
@okie,
Of course, okie is the expert speaker, and has the (chutzpah) to criticize one of the best speeches in recent history by any president.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Tue 24 Feb, 2009 10:02 pm
@okie,
There were no earmarks in the bill okie.

The members of Congress on the conference committee signed a statement that there were no earmarks.

Perhaps you don't know what an "earmark" is okie.
genoves
 
  -1  
Wed 25 Feb, 2009 01:53 am
@okie,
Okie-Obama thinks he is still on the South Side of Chicago jiving with the homies. He was, you know, a community organizer in the black ghetto.

But, I really must concentrate on the idiocy written by Parados. Parados is one of those left wingers who thinks all he has to do is to make a statement and it will be accepted. NO EVIDENCE NEEDS TO BE GIVEN, HE THINKS...WELL, HE IS DELUDED.

Below is clear evidence that there are indeed EARMARKS in the stimuluspackage.
quote:
"There are no earmarks" in the stimulus bill.
Robert Gibbs on Monday, February 2nd, 2009 in a comment at the daily White House press briefing.

Stimulus bill includes projects that some consider earmarks

For weeks, President Obama and his aides have said it is critical that the economic stimulus package not contain any "earmarks," projects that are often viewed as wasteful or frivolous. This week, Obama's spokesman Robert Gibbs declared they had succeeded.

At his daily briefing on Feb. 2, 2009, Gibbs said the bill contains "unprecedented accountability and transparency. There are no earmarks in this bill. The information on the projects that will be funded in this legislation will be available online, as you know, at www.recovery.gov . There will be an oversight board that will monitor the progress of each project and address any problems that are involved early and aggressively."

Obama made a similar claim in an interview with ABC on Feb. 3, saying, "If you take a look at the bill, the fact is, there are no earmarks in this bill, which, by the way, some of the critics can't claim for legislation they've voted for over the last eight years."

Given all the complaints Republicans have made about the bill, we wondered if Gibbs and Obama were right.

What's an earmark?

We need to start by explaining the different ways earmarks are defined. The term comes from the practice of marking the ears of livestock for identification. It has been used in American politics since the 1930s and has come to mean money that is "set aside . . . for a special project or purpose," according to Safire's Political Dictionary, a well-regarded reference book on political terms.

But Safire 's notes that in Congress, the term often has a narrower meaning: "funds that individual senators or representatives specify be directed to projects and activities that will benefit particular people, institutions or locations in their home constituencies."

The Office of Management and Budget, an agency that is essentially an extension of the White House, offers a definition with a little executive branch attitude: "Earmarks are funds provided by the Congress for projects or programs where the congressional direction (in bill or report language) circumvents the merit-based or competitive allocation process, or specifies the location or recipient, or otherwise curtails the ability of the Executive Branch to properly manage funds."

If you sense a little snarkiness in the OMB definition, it's because the executive branch doesn't fancy the legislative branch telling it what to do. But members of Congress, particularly those on the Appropriations Committee, say an earmark is simply how the legislative branch fulfills its duty under the Constitution to tell the executive branch what to do. (Article 1, Section 9: "No money shall be drawn from the treasury, but in consequence of appropriations made by law.")

Because of the fuss over the "Bridge to Nowhere" and other controversial projects, the House and Senate now have rules requiring members to disclose their requests for earmarks. The Senate avoids the fuzzy term "earmark," preferring the more lawyerly "Congressionally directed spending items," which it defines as "a provision or report language included primarily at the request of a Senator providing, authorizing or recommending a specific amount of discretionary budget authority, credit authority, or other spending authority for a contract, loan, loan guarantee, grant, loan authority, or other expenditure with or to an entity, or targeted to a specific State, locality or congressional district, other than through a statutory or administrative formula driven or competitive award process."

The Senate definition also covers tax benefits for "a particular beneficiary or limited group of beneficiaries."

The House rule defines earmark as "a provision or report language included primarily at the request of a Member, Delegate, Resident Commissioner, or Senator providing, authorizing or recommending a specific amount of discretionary budget authority, credit authority, or other spending authority for a contract, loan, loan guarantee, grant, loan authority, or other expenditure with or to an entity, or targeted to a specific State, locality or congressional district, other than through a statutory or administrative formula driven or competitive award process."

More earmarking in Senate

The stimulus bills are huge. The Senate version has more than 700 pages that on average cost more than $1 billion per page. In general, the approach behind the bills is to leave the specific spending decisions to federal agencies and states and municipalities. For example, the bill's don't specify particular highways for federal money. The states can decide.

Still, there are plenty of specifics in the House and Senate versions that indicate members of Congress are earmarking, at least in the broad sense of the word. PolitiFact has spent the past couple of weeks fact-checking many claims about what's in the bills. Although we found Eric Cantor was Pants on Fire wrong when he said the House bill included $300,000 for a Miami sculpture garden, the Republicans were right the House bill had $335 million for prevention of sexually transmitted diseases , and that the Senate version authorizes $198 million for Filipino veterans. (We should note that the Senate bill is a work in progress and that the contents may change; our rulings are accurate for the time when the statement was made.)

When the House bill was being considered, it had controversial elements such as money for improvements to the National Mall, which some people consider an earmark. But that was stripped out before final passage.

Matthew Specht, a spokesman for Rep. Jeff Flake, an Arizona Republican who is considered the biggest critic of earmarks in the House, told us, "Yeah, we agree that the House version can probably be considered earmark-free."

There seems to be more earmarking in the Senate version, however.

Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., has highlighted many provisions he considers to be earmarks, including a $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers. It would allow large Hollywood studios the opportunity to choose between an existing tax break or write off 50 percent of the entire production cost for movies and TV shows made in 2009. It was in the bill when Gibbs made his statement but was removed Feb. 3 when Coburn passed an amendment 52-45 to remove it.

To answer whether that project and others could be considered earmarks, we turned to Taxpayers for Common Sense, a Washington advocacy group that tracks government spending and highlights waste. Steve Ellis, the group's vice president, said congressional leaders had generally resisted the urge to fill the bill with earmarks, according to the strict definitions of the word. But he said there still were some projects in the bills that he and other people would consider earmarks.

"There’s at least a few and I wouldn’t be surprised if we end up finding more," he said, citing the provision for Filipino veterans as an example.

Coburn spokesman John Hart and Taxpayers for Common Sense also cited another project as an earmark: a provision in the bill calling for $2 billion for a "near zero emissions powerplant." They say the money is intended to restart FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that is supported by Sen. Dick Durbin.

Senators are also employing a wink-wink approach that uses vague-sounding language in a committee report to quietly direct money to pet projects. Although the language does not sound specific, groups that track earmarks say it's clear where senators want the money to go. For example, a report on the bill from the Senate Appropriations Committee specifies $70 million for "supercomputer activities, especially as they relate to climate research." The Senate Conservatives Fund, a political action committee, says that is probably targeted for the National Center for Environmental Prediction in Camp Springs, Md.

The group also cites $250 million that is designated "to repair NASA facilities damaged by Hurricane Ike and to reduce the significant backlog of maintenance and repair projects at NASA facilities nationwide." That appears to be for the Johnson Space Center in Houston.

Those projects don't have senators' names attributed to them, but the Senate Conservatives Fund points out that senators on the Appropriations Committee include Barbara Mikulski of Maryland and Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas.

It's worth noting that Obama's observation about the overall nature of the bill is mostly correct. The House and Senate stimulus bills have not been stuffed with hundreds of pet projects the way that highway, energy and water bills often are. And that's especially true for the House bill.

But the Senate version includes at least several projects that we consider to be earmarks. The Filipino project might not fit the narrow definition of earmarks that Congress or OMB uses, but we think reasonable people would consider it to be an earmark. And the movie industry tax break, which was in the bill when Gibbs made his statement, and the Texas and Maryland projects sure look like earmarks by any definition.

Gibbs didn't leave himself any wiggle room. He said "no earmarks." But we see at least a few, so we find his statement to be False.
end of quote
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Wed 25 Feb, 2009 04:27 am
@parados,
parados wrote:

There were no earmarks in the bill okie.

The members of Congress on the conference committee signed a statement that there were no earmarks.

Perhaps you don't know what an "earmark" is okie.

I know what an earmark is. Not called earmarks, but the entire bill is one giant collection of earmarks, so to speak. To claim there are no earmarks in the bill, repeatedly, is to be a total and absolute hypocrite. Some of us are not so stupid as to believe the claim of no earmarks. What a joke!!!!!!! This does not show much intelligence, Parados, on the part of Obama.
Woiyo9
 
  0  
Wed 25 Feb, 2009 07:08 am
@parados,
Quote:
There were no earmarks in the bill okie.

The members of Congress on the conference committee signed a statement that there were no earmarks.


And you believe them? Laughing Laughing Laughing

* $2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient.
* A $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film.
* $650 million for the digital television converter box coupon program.
* $88 million for the Coast Guard to design a new polar icebreaking ship.
* $448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters.
* $248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters.
* $600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees.
* $400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD’s.
* $1.4 billion for rural waste disposal programs.
* $125 million for the Washington sewer system.
* $150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities.
* $1 billion for the 2010 Census, which already has a projected cost overrun of $3 billion.
* $75 million for “smoking cessation activities.”
* $200 million for public computer centers at community colleges.
* $75 million for salaries of employees at the FBI.
* $25 million for tribal alcohol and substance abuse reduction.

* $500 million for flood reduction projects on the Mississippi River.
* $10 million to inspect canals in urban areas.
* $6 billion to turn federal buildings into “green” buildings.
* $500 million for state and local fire stations.
* $650 million for wildland fire management on forest service lands.
* $1.2 billion for “youth activities,” including youth summer job programs.
* $88 million for renovating the headquarters of the Public Health Service.
* $412 million for CDC buildings and property.
* $500 million for building and repairing National Institutes of Health facilities in Bethesda, Maryland.
* $160 million for “paid volunteers” at the Corporation for National and Community Service.
* $5.5 million for “energy efficiency initiatives” at the Department of Veterans Affairs National Cemetery Administration.
* $850 million for Amtrak.
* $100 million for reducing the hazard of lead-based paint.

* $75 million to construct a “security training” facility for State Department Security officers when they can be trained at existing facilities of other agencies.
* $110 million to the Farm Service Agency to upgrade computer systems.
* $200 million in funding for the lease of alternative energy vehicles for use on military installations.
parados
 
  2  
Wed 25 Feb, 2009 08:08 am
@Woiyo9,
I certainly don't believe you Woiyo since you highlight things not in the bill and claim they are earmarks.

Your claim that spending for the FBI is an earmark would mean that the military budget passed each year is nothing more than an earmark.
revel
 
  1  
Wed 25 Feb, 2009 08:32 am
@Woiyo9,
GOP Stimulus Myths
Quote:
Summary
Do some of the Republican claims you've heard about the stimulus bill sound too awful to be true? We find a few that are wildly exaggerated or downright false.

It's not true that the bill contains spending for "golf carts." It has $300 million to buy fuel-efficient vehicles, some of which may be electric cart-like utility vehicles like those already in use on military bases and at other government facilities.


Money claimed to be for "remodeled federal offices" is mostly designated for upgrading buildings to "green" status through such things as thicker insulation and highly efficient lighting, not new drapes or paneling.


A widely repeated claim that $8 billion is set aside for a "levitating train" to Disneyland is untrue. That total is for unspecified high-speed rail projects, and some of it may or may not end up going to a proposed 300-mph "maglev" train connecting Anaheim, Calif., with Las Vegas.


There's no money in the bill specified for butterfly parks, Frisbee golf courses or water slides, despite a GOP congressman's claim that the bill "will fund" those projects. He culled those silly-sounding items from a list of 18,750 city projects that the U.S. Conference of Mayors cobbled together as examples of "shovel-ready" projects.

Don't look to us to defend any particular item in the bill, or to criticize it. We will, however, call out politicians for delivering trumped-up descriptions of the bill's contents.


(Fact Check org is the source; if you go to the link at the top it goes into more details)
Woiyo9
 
  0  
Wed 25 Feb, 2009 08:35 am
@parados,
Of course you would not believe me. You are a gut sucking, democratic party partisan stooge who will blindly go wherever Bella Pelosi tells you to go.

You are incapable of any independent thought and therefore can not be credible in any serious discussion.

The picture of you sitting on a toilet is a very accurate portrayal of your level of intelligence and inability for any independent thought.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 25 Feb, 2009 09:17 am
@Woiyo9,
Woiyo9 wrote:

Of course you would not believe me. You are a gut sucking, democratic party partisan stooge who will blindly go wherever Bella Pelosi tells you to go.

You are incapable of any independent thought and therefore can not be credible in any serious discussion.

The picture of you sitting on a toilet is a very accurate portrayal of your level of intelligence and inability for any independent thought.


Oh really, and you put lists like that together by yourself?

No. You just copy and paste them from wherever the Republican party tells you to. You don't know the validity or reasoning behind many of those items, the stimulative effect that they might have, or even what an 'earmark' means, apparently.

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 25 Feb, 2009 09:20 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

parados wrote:

There were no earmarks in the bill okie.

The members of Congress on the conference committee signed a statement that there were no earmarks.

Perhaps you don't know what an "earmark" is okie.

I know what an earmark is. Not called earmarks, but the entire bill is one giant collection of earmarks, so to speak. To claim there are no earmarks in the bill, repeatedly, is to be a total and absolute hypocrite. Some of us are not so stupid as to believe the claim of no earmarks. What a joke!!!!!!! This does not show much intelligence, Parados, on the part of Obama.


No, you don't know what an earmark is. You are just using words to mean whatever the hell you want, b/c you think they sound bad.

The bill does not have earmarks in it. You don't understand what an earmark is if you claim differently. I'll write this down next to 'pork' on the list of concepts you can't quite seem to wrap your head around.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Woiyo9
 
  0  
Wed 25 Feb, 2009 09:28 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Back to the herd asshole.

You are incapable of independent thought so take your parrot opinion and shove it up Parados ass.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 25 Feb, 2009 09:43 am
@Woiyo9,
Woiyo9 wrote:

Back to the herd asshole.

You are incapable of independent thought so take your parrot opinion and shove it up Parados ass.


What makes you think this is a cogent response? You're just bitching to hear the sound of your own voice.

Neither Parados nor I needs any help destroying your posts, woiyo, b/c they are ill-conceived and poorly thought out. You don't spend time developing a strong argument but instead rely on lies, invective and false assertions to try and make your 'point.' When called out on it you attack the other poster b/c you don't have any good response. Weak.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  0  
Wed 25 Feb, 2009 10:00 am
For cyclops, and anyone else that can't figure out earmarks, here is what is going on, expressed as an equation:

Pet projects = Earmarks
This bill = one giant collection of Pet projects
Therefore: This bill = one giant collection of Earmarks


They aren't called earmarks, but thats what they are equivalent to. If you want to call it pork instead, thats okay too.

The entire problem here is Obama has not correctly identified the problem with our economy. The problem with our economy is not insufficient pork spending by the government. Therefore pork spending will not fix the problem. If you don't identify the problem, there is no hope of fixing it. The problem is the embedded problems that are hindering private industry, and that includes a long list, over taxation, over regulation, unions, the government rewarding mediocrity and advocating loans to undeserving applicants, and much more. Obama address none of these problems with the right fix.

None of this failure of Obama is surprising, this was obvious when he was running for president, his prescription for change did not recognize the problems correctly, nor are his solutions the right ones. Instead they worsen the problems we have, simply digging a bigger hole, that the Democrat Congresses have created for decades.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Wed 25 Feb, 2009 10:16 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

For cyclops, and anyone else that can't figure out earmarks, here is what is going on, expressed as an equation:

Pet projects = Earmarks


Okie: 100% incorrect.

From the OMB -

Quote:

OMB defines earmarks as funds provided by the Congress for projects or programs where the congressional direction (in bill or report language) circumvents Executive Branch merit-based or competitive allocation processes, or specifies the location or recipient, or otherwise curtails the ability of the Executive Branch to manage critical aspects of the funds allocation process.


Which part of the bill do you think falls under this category? Specifically.

Quote:
The entire problem here is Obama has not correctly identified the problem with our economy.


No, the problem is that you haven't identified the problem with our economy, Okie: years of Republican stewardship. But the country did identify that problem and took steps to correct it.

The problem with our economy is not insufficient pork spending by the government. Therefore pork spending will not fix the problem. If you don't identify the problem, there is no hope of fixing it. The problem is the embedded problems that are hindering private industry, and that includes a long list, over taxation, over regulation, unions, the government rewarding mediocrity and advocating loans to undeserving applicants, and much more. Obama address none of these problems with the right fix.

None of this failure of Obama is surprising, this was obvious when he was running for president, his prescription for change did not recognize the problems correctly, nor are his solutions the right ones. Instead they worsen the problems we have, simply digging a bigger hole, that the Democrat Congresses have created for decades.
[/quote]

Our problem is under-regulation, not over-taxation. And we are taking steps to correct this.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  0  
Wed 25 Feb, 2009 10:20 am
Another observation here, after thinking about all of this pork spending, I think the stimulus bill is a trojan horse ploy, sort of like right after taking office you give everyone a big box of candy. Republican governors are threatening to turn it down, but ultimately I suspicion virtually everyone, Democrats and Republicans alike, will accept all of this pork, happily with their hands out. What this accomplishes is that every almost every politician, and citizen is now indebted to Lord Obama. This is all by design, to be capitalized on later by Obama.

Among the really rotten ideas in his speech last night, I heard about his community service idea for young people, this is another ploy like the above, if you volunteer community service, then he will help you go to college, pay for your college or give you cheap loans, I don't know which. My immediate thought on this is: Hello ACORN. All of his little brownshirt ACORN volunteers out there registering phony voters, intimidating voters, etc. that is what he envisions and loves, to perpetuate his power.

We have a really bad apple for president, folks.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 25 Feb, 2009 10:23 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo, You're trying to have an intelligent discussion with okie who neither understands politics or economics. You're wasting your time trying to talk sense with an imbecile who uses words he doesn't have a clue as to its meaning.
0 Replies
 
 

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