mysteryman
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 01:07 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
I just found this, and it wont help Obama at all (with some voters)...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/06/AR2008080601081.html?hpid=sec-religion

Quote:
Barack Obama's national Muslim outreach coordinator has resigned amid a controversy of over his connections to a man who the Justice Department named as an unindicted co-conspirator in the racketeering trial last year of several alleged Hamas fund-raisers.


Mazen Asbahi, a Chicago lawyer who had been appointed to help Obama reach out to Muslims, stepped down on Monday, the Wall Street Journal reported late last night


I would think he would have stepped down last year.
Now this will play into the paranoid crazies that think Obama is a Muslim.


Who cares? Those same crazies would just make up evidence if they didn't have any other evidence.

Cycloptichorn


I agree, but why give your enemy the bullets to shoot you with?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 01:10 pm
You think Obama planned this?

Although I know your side likes to smear him as some sort of omnipotent guy, he isn't; he can't be responsible for every connection of every person who works around him.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 01:13 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
You think Obama planned this?

Although I know your side likes to smear him as some sort of omnipotent guy, he isn't; he can't be responsible for every connection of every person who works around him.

Cycloptichorn


You like to say "my side", and you know that isnt the case.
I dont have a side, I'm not on anyones side, and I dont belong to any political party.

To paraphrase Groucho Marx...I refuse to join any organization that would allow someone like me to be a member Laughing Laughing

I simply report what I find, about either candidate.
0 Replies
 
teenyboone
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 02:02 pm
woiyo wrote:
teenyboone wrote:
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
teeny you are a christian, right? So why don't you forgive the white devil?

Which one?

Or does Black Jesus preach a different gospel? Laughing


Gee, I haven't seen Jesus, but I've felt the presence of the Holy Spirit.
If Jesus is indeed Black, what a come down for you whites, eh? Every Church I walk into, Jesus is a white man! No problem! If the Son of God died for me and I believe, even though I haven't seen anyone, what makes you think I haven't already forgiven? God has and that's good enough for me!
:wink:


What if Jesus is Native American? Rolling Eyes

What of it? I am Indian on both sides of my family. My makeup is a real Gumbo! French Canadian/African/European French/Cherokee/Choctaw and whatever else was lurking on the Plantations! Black Americans in Louisiana are ALL mixed up and I'm one of them!

If Jesus were indeed Native American, why not, but according to the Bible, Jesus was born in Bethlehem and raised in Nazareth; Jesus the Nazarene, as He was called! What's the question?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 02:18 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
I just found this, and it wont help Obama at all (with some voters)...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/06/AR2008080601081.html?hpid=sec-religion

Quote:
Barack Obama's national Muslim outreach coordinator has resigned amid a controversy of over his connections to a man who the Justice Department named as an unindicted co-conspirator in the racketeering trial last year of several alleged Hamas fund-raisers.


Mazen Asbahi, a Chicago lawyer who had been appointed to help Obama reach out to Muslims, stepped down on Monday, the Wall Street Journal reported late last night


I would think he would have stepped down last year.
Now this will play into the paranoid crazies that think Obama is a Muslim.


Who cares? Those same crazies would just make up evidence if they didn't have any other evidence.

Cycloptichorn


A sensible person would've resigned when it came to light that Obama's church reprinted the Hamas manifesto in the weekly bulletin and gave an award to Louis Farrakhan.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 02:26 pm
real believes he's a "sensible" person. He's the one afraid of the take-over of this world by al Qaeda. ROFLMAO
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 02:34 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
He's the one afraid of the take-over of this world by al Qaeda.


Get up off the floor, put your A back on and provide a quote where I've said anything remotely resembling this.

Or just admit that you shamelessly lie.

Either way is ok.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 02:44 pm
MM said
Quote:
I simply report what I find, about either candidate.
liar
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 02:46 pm
dyslexia wrote:
MM said
Quote:
I simply report what I find, about either candidate.
liar


Have I not posted things about McCain, or it that I havent posted enough of them to suit you?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 02:49 pm
mysteryman wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
MM said
Quote:
I simply report what I find, about either candidate.
liar


Have I not posted things about McCain, or it that I havent posted enough of them to suit you?
actually MM I think you mean well and try to be fair but your listed sources of info lead me to the conclusion that you ignore all sources which exclude your prefered results.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 02:51 pm
dyslexia wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
MM said
Quote:
I simply report what I find, about either candidate.
liar


Have I not posted things about McCain, or it that I havent posted enough of them to suit you?
actually MM I think you mean well and try to be fair but your listed sources of info lead me to the conclusion that you ignore all sources which exclude your prefered results.


Actually, my source for most of the things I link to is right here...

http://www.fark.com/politics/

You will find a lot of articles and reports that dont get much play anywhere else, about both parties and candidates.
0 Replies
 
teenyboone
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 03:55 pm
mysteryman wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
MM said
Quote:
I simply report what I find, about either candidate.
liar


Have I not posted things about McCain, or it that I havent posted enough of them to suit you?
actually MM I think you mean well and try to be fair but your listed sources of info lead me to the conclusion that you ignore all sources which exclude your prefered results.


Actually, my source for most of the things I link to is right here...

http://www.fark.com/politics/

You will find a lot of articles and reports that dont get much play anywhere else, about both parties and candidates.

Some of those sources are questionable, like the bloggers at the bottom. :wink:
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  2  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 06:23 pm
mysteryman wrote:
I just found this, and it wont help Obama at all (with some voters)...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/06/AR2008080601081.html?hpid=sec-religion

Quote:
Barack Obama's national Muslim outreach coordinator has resigned amid a controversy of over his connections to a man who the Justice Department named as an unindicted co-conspirator in the racketeering trial last year of several alleged Hamas fund-raisers.

Mazen Asbahi, a Chicago lawyer who had been appointed to help Obama reach out to Muslims, stepped down on Monday, the Wall Street Journal reported late last night


I would think he would have stepped down last year.


This turns out to be quite the story... as Nate Silver at the electoral projections site fivethirtyeight.com tells us.

Damn, doesnt this **** make you half angry:

Quote:
Earlier this week, Mazen Asbahi, whom the Obama campaign had appointed on July 26 to be their national coordinator for Muslim American affairs, announced that he had resigned his position.

Rany Jazayerli, my friend and colleague at Baseball Prospectus, knows Mr. Asbahi, and wrote me a long e-mail detailing his perspective on the matter. I asked him whether he'd be willing to share his perspective with the readers of FiveThirtyEight, and he graciously agreed. The following are Rany's words, unedited, and pulling no punches.

On Mazen Asbahi

by Rany Jazayerli

If you're a politics junkie - and if you're reading this, you are - you may have read the report in the Wall Street Journal on Wednesday that Mazen Asbahi, who just 10 days before had joined Senator Barack Obama's presidential campaign as national coordinator for Muslim American affairs, "stepped down Monday after an Internet newsletter wrote about his brief stint on the fund's board, which also included a fundamentalist imam."

Mazen Asbahi is one of my best friends. I introduced him to his wife 12 years ago, which was payback after his wife (a childhood friend) introduced me to my wife the year before. When I attended medical school in Michigan, where he grew up, his parents would invite me over for dinner regularly. Our kids play together and we dine together at least once a month. We're close. [..]

The news that Mazen had been offered the position - and that he took a leave of absence from his law firm to work in an unpaid capacity - was celebrated not just among his circle of friends, but throughout the Muslim community in Chicago and nationally. Mazen had spent his adult life preparing for this kind of opportunity. He's worked for a number of Chicago law firms since graduating from law school, and while most of his legal work has been in the corporate setting, he has always been most passionate about the work he did, much of it pro bono, on behalf of various charitable and social organizations. The opportunity to represent Obama's campaign, one he strongly supports, to a Muslim community that knows and trusts him, was an immensely fulfilling task for him.

So I'm crushed for him as a friend, but I'm furious as a Muslim because what has happened is that Mazen was forced to resign because of a smear campaign that targeted him for the sin of being Muslim: nothing more, nothing less.

Let's parse the original Wall Street Journal column, if you don't mind:



Where do I start? Let's start with Jamal Said, "the imam at a fundamentalist-controlled mosque". The consensus of the vast majority of Muslims in Chicago is that the mosque is not a fundamentalist anything, which is why it has such a large membership. Some of the mosque's more recent projects include donating a riverfront garden to the city of Chicago (here's a picture of major Richard Daley at the ribbon-cutting ceremony) and becoming the first mosque in the country to run on solar power.

Said has never been convicted of any crime, or arrested for any crime, or indicted for any crime. He has been accused of supporting Hamas, but has never been found guilty of anything. I'm not here to defend Said; I don't know him, and unlike the people who wrote this column I prefer to not render judgments about people I don't know anything about. But the point is that Said is not a convicted criminal, or a mafia don that walks the streets while people cower in fear.

What he is, is the imam of the largest mosque in the Chicago area. Mazen is an active member of the Muslim community here in Chicago. It would be almost impossible for him to be active and not have some contact with Said.

So Mazen happened to serve on the board of an investment fund with Said, until he learned about allegations that Said had been involved in raising funds for Hamas, at which time he quit the board. In 2000. Before 9/11, before Iraq, before the US government shut down Muslim charities such as the Holy Land Foundation after accusing them of funneling money to Hamas and other designated terrorist groups. [In] 2000, before our own government felt that these charitable activities were illegal, Mazen decided to dissociate himself from even the hint of impropriety. That doesn't support accusations that he's a terrorist sympathizer; it refutes them.

"Other Web sites, some pro-Republican and others critical of fundamentalist Islam, also have reported on the background of Mr. Asbahi. He is a frequent speaker before several groups in the U.S. that scholars have associated with the Muslim Brotherhood."

Those groups "associated with the Muslim Brotherhood" include ISNA, the largest Muslim organization in the country, whose annual convention draws over 10,000 people. Other prominent speakers at past conventions include radicals such as Karen Hughes. Last year's convention was co-sponsored by the Department of Justice. The other group Mazen was involved with was the MSA, also known as the Muslim Students Association, which exists on every college campus. I was part of the MSA when I was in college; pretty much every Muslim who goes to college is. It serves the religious needs of students on campus in the same way that Campus Crusade for Christ or Hillel might.

"The Justice Department named Mr. Said an unindicted co-conspirator in the racketeering trial last year of several alleged Hamas fund-raisers, which ended in a mistrial. He has also been identified as a leading member of the group in news reports going back to 1993."

Pardon my Arabic, but what the f**k is an unindicted co-conspirator, and why is our government using this phrase? Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? And whatever happened to the notion that indictment is just the first step towards a guilty verdict? A prosecutor is supposed to be able to indict a ham sandwich, so what does it say that they've never been able to indict Said? [..]

In that racketeering trial - which, again, ended in a mistrial - the government listed close to 300 Muslim organizations as "unindicted co-conspirators", which is tantamount to saying "we think some of them are terrorists, and since we don't know who, we'll just blame them all." So much for innocent until proven guilty. This isn't even guilty until proven innocent - it's guilty with no recourse to prove you're innocent. How can you defend yourself against an indictment which doesn't exist? Said is guilty by association. Which makes Mazen, apparently, guilty by association with someone who's guilty by association. It's McCarthyism squared.

I'm so angry that I don't know where to direct my anger. I've fervently supported Obama's campaign up until now, having just donated to his campaign again last week, but I'm not sending him another dime until I see some evidence that he's willing to take a principled stand against this kind of bigotry. If Obama won't stand up to the flimsiest of accusations linking someone in his campaign, however remotely and ridiculously, to terrorists, then I'm not sure what he'll stand up against. [..]

If Obama doesn't want to stand up for Mazen on principle, how about standing up for him on pragmatism? Maybe he doesn't feel he needs to, since it's not like Michigan is a tipping point state in this election or anything. And it's not like Michigan has one of the highest concentrations of Muslims of any state in the union. And it's not like Mazen is from Michigan and his resignation is certain to depress turnout in the state from one of the Obama campaign's most reliable demographic bases. [..]

I suppose I should credit the Obama campaign for having the courage to appoint a Muslim coordinator in the first place. In which case I have to ask, how stupid were they to not expect this kind of attack in the first place? The first thing I said to Mazen after he was hired - after "congratulations" - was "you know they're going to come after you now, right?" He nodded, and we both knew who "they" were.

"They" are the racists who made these accusations and forced the Obama campaign to respond to them. They came after Mazen with everything they got, and all they landed was a feather punch - only to have the Obama campaign throw the towel in the ring anyway.

What they're saying is that Mazen Asbahi has a link to people suspected of terrorism. What I'll tell you is this: Mazen is not a terrorist. He's not a fundamentalist. He's not an Islamist. He's neither a supporter of, nor a subscriber to the ideology of, the Muslim Brotherhood. The only thing he is guilty of, like the witch-hunted Debbie Almontaser, is being a Muslim and being an active member of the Muslim community. If he wasn't, he wouldn't have been qualified for the position in the first place.

As Ahmed Rehab put it in today's Chicago Tribune, the headline should read "Muslim liaison for presidential campaign resigns after connections to Muslim community are found." Mazen could not have been qualified to do this job without being associated, in some tenuous fashion, to someone like Jamal Said [..].

Oh, and you know who else is associated with Said? As Jake Tapper pointed out, the board that Mazen and Said both sat on was the Allied Asset Advisor Funds, a subsidiary of the North American Islamic Trust (NAIT). NAIT is an adviser to the Dow Jones Islamic Fund.

Dow Jones. Which publishes the Wall Street Journal. Which broke the story that forced Mazen's resignation. We're officially through the looking glass, people.

If Mazen Asbahi is a terrorist, then I'm a terrorist. And if I were named to the same position, I'm sure they would have found a way to label me a terrorist as well. (I'm sure that if you scour my writings over the last 12 years, you'll find that at some point I've threatened grievous bodily harm to a few members of the Kansas City Royals.)

And that's what this is about. The same people who claim there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim will do everything in their power to slander people like Mazen Asbahi - the very epitome of a moderate, modern, integrated, tolerant, patriotic American Muslim - as an extremist. They will set their sights on any Muslim who seeks to be a part of the political process, and will pick them off, one by one, until there are no more targets left.

The world is at war right now, but it's not a war of Christian vs. Muslim. It's a war of moderates vs. extremists, and the two groups are battling it out in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. But they're also battling here in America. This week, the extremists won. But I'll be damned if I'm going to let them continue to win without a fight.

Rany Jazayerli is a physician, and co-founder of Baseball Prospectus. He lives in Naperville, Illinois


Hell yeah Twisted Evil

This is what we're up against, people...
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  2  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 06:40 pm
nimh wrote:
So basically, when..

Cyclo wrote:
Only if McCain dramatically changes his tactics and somehow rises in the polls in 10-15 different states, that is.

What he means is that McCain needs to gain about 2.5% (and Obama lose the same) in those states.

Be vigilant...


Cycloptichorn wrote:
A 5% swing in opinion is a significant swing.


But not an unusual one - there was one in 2004 after this point in time (Kerry down), there were two in 2000 (Gore up, then down again). Not to mention the volatility in 1992 and Dukakis' loss of a two-digit lead in '88. Not comparing Obama with Dukakis, of course, but a 5% swing during and after the conventions seems more like something that's par for the course than an unlikely event.

Anyway, read more about how the development of Obama's polling against McCain so far compares with the corresponding polling numbers for 2004 and 2000 on the Polls etc thread - analysis and graph courtesy of the great pollster.com. Smile
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 07:06 pm
I saw that graph the other day, thanks.

It isn't that 5% a swing isn't possible - it's that it takes some sort of change in the race.... some significant event or tactic used by one campaign, which resonates. So far we haven't seen much of that, things have been pretty stable since Obama won the nomination... and, strangely enough, it has been the daily tracking polls which have kept McCain from being farther behind. Obama is up by more in regular polls by average then he is in the tracking polls, something like 5 points or something, whereas the tracking points are what, 2 or 3 points up?

It could never be done - the complication would be too much - but I'd love to see a composite graph with some state polling for the last two elections, and see how those graphs compare with the state polling this election. I have a feeling that they would look starkly different, and a graph grouping states by region would show some differences...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 07:15 pm
Cyclo, I have to agree with you that a composite graph showing the trend lines by state for the last two elections and what that shows for the current election would be a very interesting one.
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 07:18 pm
mysteryman wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
MM said
Quote:
I simply report what I find, about either candidate.
liar


Have I not posted things about McCain, or it that I havent posted enough of them to suit you?
actually MM I think you mean well and try to be fair but your listed sources of info lead me to the conclusion that you ignore all sources which exclude your prefered results.


Actually, my source for most of the things I link to is right here...

http://www.fark.com/politics/

You will find a lot of articles and reports that dont get much play anywhere else, about both parties and candidates.


fark is one of my sources. right on!
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Sat 9 Aug, 2008 04:48 pm
dyslexia wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
MM said
Quote:
I simply report what I find, about either candidate.
liar


Have I not posted things about McCain, or it that I havent posted enough of them to suit you?
actually MM I think you mean well and try to be fair but your listed sources of info lead me to the conclusion that you ignore all sources which exclude your prefered results.


Hey dys - I got my PM privileges yanked. But wanted to tell you, howdy back.
0 Replies
 
gustavratzenhofer
 
  2  
Sat 9 Aug, 2008 04:53 pm
Snood? Sheeet, give me a hug, brother!
0 Replies
 
gustavratzenhofer
 
  2  
Sat 9 Aug, 2008 04:55 pm
Snood and I are as close to homosexuals as possible without actual penetration, and... I respect him for that.
0 Replies
 
 

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