Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Thu 7 Aug, 2008 05:42 pm
This thread is 2101 pages and still arrest the attention of the participants. Why?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 7 Aug, 2008 05:46 pm
Why not? Both candidates are making this election confused by their flip-flops on some of the major issues facing our country. I believe this is the very first time that both are trended toward the center, and nobody will recognize who the liberal or conservative is by November 4th.

By recent polls, it's a close call on total votes just like 2000.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Thu 7 Aug, 2008 05:52 pm
C I irrespective of the outcome who wish to occupy the august chair I hope and wish that 70 percent of the eligible voters make use of their right to shpe their future..
In this case I am not so optimistic
0 Replies
 
rabel22
 
  1  
Thu 7 Aug, 2008 06:19 pm
OK Cyclo. Its time for you to post something showing how far ahead Obama is.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Thu 7 Aug, 2008 06:26 pm
rabel22 wrote:
OK Cyclo. Its time for you to post something showing how far ahead Obama is.


Well, if you insist:

http://www.pollster.com/08USPresGEMvO600.png

The tracking polls are keeping mccain close.

State polling is looking great for Obama still - if he won every state that he has a solid lead in today, he would only need to win 1 or 2 of the 10 states with no clear winner in order to hit 270.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Thu 7 Aug, 2008 07:58 pm
The big question to which foreign policy commentators are starting to turn their attention is this: how much exactly is at stake in the US presidential election?

Experts tend to do badly at this question. In the 2000 race between Al Gore and George W. Bush, the received wisdom was that the foreign policy differences between the candidates were minimal. It was presumed that a President Gore would continue the centrist international approach of the Clinton administration, in which he had been such an important player. Meanwhile, the Republican team hosed down expectations that a President Bush would pursue a more muscular strategy. All this led Robert Kagan to publish an op-ed in The Washington Post titled "Vive what difference?", in which he asked glumly: "When it comes to international affairs, is there really any difference between Bush and Gore?"

It turns out that Mr Kagan need not have worried (though the rest of us should have). From his first days in office, Mr Bush was the Charles Atlas of international relations, kicking sand in the face of puny Europeans and ripping up every multilateral agreement he could get his hands on. After the attacks of September 11 2001, Mr Bush opted not just to invade Afghanistan - which had given succour to America's attackers - but to keep marching right to Baghdad. Would Mr Gore have invaded Iraq? Virtual history is always speculative. However, Iraq was a war of choice and it seems very likely, judging from his contemporaneous comments and general world-view, that Mr Gore would have chosen differently. But for Mr Bush's election victory, then, the Iraq war - with all the attendant costs in blood, treasure and prestige - probably would not have occurred.

If 2000 posed a real choice without seeming to, 2004 was the exact opposite. In 2004, most analysts agreed with The New York Times' David Brooks that "this election is not just a conflict of two men, but is a comprehensive conflict of visions".

Democratic commentators predicted that Mr Bush's second term would be just like his first term, except worse, because Colin Powell, former secretary of state, would no longer be around to apply the handbrake.

On the other side of the fence, Republicans forecast that a President John Kerry would convene a European-style multilateralist love-in. Tom DeLay, House Speaker, introduced his speeches with: "Good morning, ladies and gentlemen - or, as John Kerry would say, bonjour."

In fact, the foreign policy differences between the candidates were smaller than they appeared. By mid-2004, the early failures of the Iraq war had already undermined the ideologues and chastened US foreign policy. Washington was taking a more multilateral approach to the problems posed by the two remaining members of the axis of evil, Iran and North Korea.

That movement accelerated after Mr Bush's re-election. In its second term, to the disgust of ultra-cons, the Bush administration has run an orthodox foreign policy relying on multilateral approaches to its most difficult challenges - which is what Mr Kerry's foreign policy would have looked like. A Kerry first term would have differed from Mr Bush's second in some important instances, including climate change policy and the troop surge in Iraq: but there was less blue water between the two men than it seemed at the time.

What about this year? The orthodoxy has not yet crystallised, but some are already predicting that international circumstances - in particular the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan - will so restrict the policy options available to the next president that Washington's global strategy will not turn on the election result.

If the menu of options available to the next president will be limited by Mr Bush's legacy, however, the candidates would choose very differently from that menu. Their foreign policy instincts are entirely at odds: John McCain has a quarter-century of hawkishness behind him; Barack Obama opposed the Iraq war when most senior Democrats supported it and has signalled a preparedness to talk to America's adversaries. One sees jihadist terrorism as a transcendent threat; the other looks at the world through the lens of globalisation. Temperamentally, one is fiery and the other is cool.

Although the election of either man would shift international perceptions of America, Mr Obama would shift them further - not only in Europe, but also in the poorest parts of the world, where threats coalesce. Which other presidential candidate in history could reminisce, as Mr Obama does when describing his childhood years in Indonesia, about "the feel of packed mud under bare feet as I wander through paddy fields"? These contrasts are even more significant than the stated policy differences on issues such as Iraq. In the 2008 election, Americans face a foreign policy choice - and not a marginal, VHS vs Beta kind of choice, either.
http://d2cft.volantis.net/d2c/0.0?feed-article-id=8847874c-63ba-11dd-844f-0000779fd18c
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Thu 7 Aug, 2008 08:46 pm
rabel22 wrote:
OK Cyclo. Its time for you to post something showing how far ahead Obama is.


The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Thursday shows Barack Obama attracting 44% of the vote while and John McCain earns 43%.

That's a whopping 1 point lead Shocked
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 11:29 am
I dont know if this is more sad then funny, or vice versa.

Its sad that whoever wrote it thinks that people will believe it, and its funny in that it took some real creative thinking to come up with it.

And FOR THE RECORD, I DO NOT BELIEVE IT!!!


http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/13040.htm

Quote:
Independent analysts, working separately, claim to have discovered that the original Hawaiian Certificate of Live Birth used in the fabrication of the Barack Obama "birth certificate" belongs to the Presidential candidate's younger half-sister, Maya.

Examining the high resolution image originally posted by the "Daily Kos" left-wing blog and subsequently claimed as authentic by the campaign, and posted in lower resolution on the campaign official "Fight the Smears" website, at least two analysts have been able to independently discern the name "Maya Kassandra Soetoro" from artifacts left behind in the process of forging a new fake document for Barack from an image of Maya's original document. Additional confirmatory information, such as her birthday and the nationality of her father have also been resurrected. A full report documenting all details is to be published in the coming days. Israel Insider has not yet seen proof that would validate the claim.


The last sentence I quoted is the only one that is believeable to me.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 11:38 am
mysteryman wrote:
I dont know if this is more sad then funny, or vice versa.

Its sad that whoever wrote it thinks that people will believe it, and its funny in that it took some real creative thinking to come up with it.

And FOR THE RECORD, I DO NOT BELIEVE IT!!!


http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/13040.htm

Quote:
Independent analysts, working separately, claim to have discovered that the original Hawaiian Certificate of Live Birth used in the fabrication of the Barack Obama "birth certificate" belongs to the Presidential candidate's younger half-sister, Maya.

Examining the high resolution image originally posted by the "Daily Kos" left-wing blog and subsequently claimed as authentic by the campaign, and posted in lower resolution on the campaign official "Fight the Smears" website, at least two analysts have been able to independently discern the name "Maya Kassandra Soetoro" from artifacts left behind in the process of forging a new fake document for Barack from an image of Maya's original document. Additional confirmatory information, such as her birthday and the nationality of her father have also been resurrected. A full report documenting all details is to be published in the coming days. Israel Insider has not yet seen proof that would validate the claim.


The last sentence I quoted is the only one that is believeable to me.


The urban legend folks are on top of it (as well as so many other unsubstantiated rumors about both McCain and Obama) and you're right, there is no credible evidence for this one:

Quote:
. . . .In July, 2008, an eRumor started circulating that questioned whether the birth certificate on Obama's campaign website was authentic and whether he was actually born in Hawaii. There has not been any substantiation that Obama might have been born somewhere other than in Hawaii.

The qualifications for president are set in Article II, Section 1 of the United States Constitution: "No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty-five years, and been fourteen years a resident within the United States."
TRUTH OR FICTION


Having a widely diverse and politically ecumenical circle of friends and family, I get tons of these bogus e-mails from all sides. If I have time to check them out, I attach the link to the UL site and return to sender. If all of us would do this, we might at least slow the flood.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 12:04 pm
mysteryman wrote:
I dont know if this is more sad then funny, or vice versa.

Its sad that whoever wrote it thinks that people will believe it, and its funny in that it took some real creative thinking to come up with it.

And FOR THE RECORD, I DO NOT BELIEVE IT!!!


http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/13040.htm

Quote:
Independent analysts, working separately, claim to have discovered that the original Hawaiian Certificate of Live Birth used in the fabrication of the Barack Obama "birth certificate" belongs to the Presidential candidate's younger half-sister, Maya.

Examining the high resolution image originally posted by the "Daily Kos" left-wing blog and subsequently claimed as authentic by the campaign, and posted in lower resolution on the campaign official "Fight the Smears" website, at least two analysts have been able to independently discern the name "Maya Kassandra Soetoro" from artifacts left behind in the process of forging a new fake document for Barack from an image of Maya's original document. Additional confirmatory information, such as her birthday and the nationality of her father have also been resurrected. A full report documenting all details is to be published in the coming days. Israel Insider has not yet seen proof that would validate the claim.


The last sentence I quoted is the only one that is believeable to me.


Obama could easily put this to bed by furnishing an authentic birth certificate.

That he hasn't done so should worry Dems.

For the record, since his mother was an American citizen, I think he should be considered an American citizen even if he was born abroad.

Apparently the nuances of the law at that time required her to be 21 before her citizenship would automatically be conferred on any children born to her.

I think that's just wrong. She was a legally married young adult woman of 19, and her children should be citizens.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 12:05 pm
He already has furnished an authentic birth certificate, issued by the state of Hawaii.

The fact that a bunch of numbnuts on the right-wing want to make hay out of nothing doesn't invalidate Obama's releasing of the birth certificate.

Now, where is McCain's birth certificate?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 12:10 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
He already has furnished an authentic birth certificate, issued by the state of Hawaii.

The fact that a bunch of numbnuts on the right-wing want to make hay out of nothing doesn't invalidate Obama's releasing of the birth certificate.

Now, where is McCain's birth certificate?

Cycloptichorn


As far as I know, the US Navy has a copy.
Use the FOIA and get a copy if you want.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 12:12 pm
I don't actually want a copy; but I figure all those who are concerned about birthright citizenship should be looking for one, as it's not clear he was born in the US.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 12:14 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I don't actually want a copy; but I figure all those who are concerned about birthright citizenship should be looking for one, as it's not clear he was born in the US.

Cycloptichorn


John McCain admits he wasnt born in the US, he has never hidden that.
He was born in the Canal Zone in Panama.
Both of his parents were US citizens however, so that makes him a US citizen.
Do you really want to go down that road again?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 12:17 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I don't actually want a copy; but I figure all those who are concerned about birthright citizenship should be looking for one, as it's not clear he was born in the US.

Cycloptichorn


John McCain admits he wasnt born in the US, he has never hidden that.
He was born in the Canal Zone in Panama.
Both of his parents were US citizens however, so that makes him a US citizen.
Do you really want to go down that road again?


No, not really. But, shouldn't it be as important for the same people to be looking in to whether or not his birth certificate is authentic?

I'm just highlighting the idiocy and hypocrisy of these fools.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 12:20 pm
Correction. Maybe she wasn't married. The Birth Certificate on Obama's website shows her maiden name.

Still, Ann Dunham was an American citizen and her children are too IMHO. Unfortunately the technicality of the law at that time differs from my opinion, so it's wrong. Laughing
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 12:20 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I don't actually want a copy; but I figure all those who are concerned about birthright citizenship should be looking for one, as it's not clear he was born in the US.

Cycloptichorn


John McCain admits he wasnt born in the US, he has never hidden that.
He was born in the Canal Zone in Panama.
Both of his parents were US citizens however, so that makes him a US citizen.
Do you really want to go down that road again?


No, not really. But, shouldn't it be as important for the same people to be looking in to whether or not his birth certificate is authentic?

I'm just highlighting the idiocy and hypocrisy of these fools.

Cycloptichorn


I agree with you, however there was a long discussion on here and in the media about John McCain and his birth.
If I remember correctly, his birth certificate and his legal ability to be President were highly scrutinized and found to be legit.
0 Replies
 
rabel22
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 12:47 pm
I was under the impression that when Mccann was born they didn't have birth certificates.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 01:02 pm
I just found this, and it wont help Obama at all (with some voters)...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/06/AR2008080601081.html?hpid=sec-religion

Quote:
Barack Obama's national Muslim outreach coordinator has resigned amid a controversy of over his connections to a man who the Justice Department named as an unindicted co-conspirator in the racketeering trial last year of several alleged Hamas fund-raisers.


Mazen Asbahi, a Chicago lawyer who had been appointed to help Obama reach out to Muslims, stepped down on Monday, the Wall Street Journal reported late last night


I would think he would have stepped down last year.
Now this will play into the paranoid crazies that think Obama is a Muslim.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Fri 8 Aug, 2008 01:05 pm
mysteryman wrote:
I just found this, and it wont help Obama at all (with some voters)...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/06/AR2008080601081.html?hpid=sec-religion

Quote:
Barack Obama's national Muslim outreach coordinator has resigned amid a controversy of over his connections to a man who the Justice Department named as an unindicted co-conspirator in the racketeering trial last year of several alleged Hamas fund-raisers.


Mazen Asbahi, a Chicago lawyer who had been appointed to help Obama reach out to Muslims, stepped down on Monday, the Wall Street Journal reported late last night


I would think he would have stepped down last year.
Now this will play into the paranoid crazies that think Obama is a Muslim.


Who cares? Those same crazies would just make up evidence if they didn't have any other evidence.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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