Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 24 Jul, 2008 12:39 pm
cjhsa wrote:
I'm not excited, more like worried. This is America folks.


The speech was in Berlin, capital of Germany (Europe). - And even in past WWII times, it would have been in the British Sector.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 24 Jul, 2008 12:49 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
So how big was the crowd, really?


Compared with previous things (Love Parade, football 'fan mile' etc) there .... nearly 100,000.


Between 200,000 and 250,00. Officially. Embarrassed
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  0  
Thu 24 Jul, 2008 12:53 pm
In Germany,
Obama no longer has any opposition he can fight with
and learn from with the possible
exception of Angela Merkel.

http://watchingamerica.com/News/2376/the-%e2%80%9cgold-lizzie%e2%80%9d-and-barack-obama/
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  2  
Thu 24 Jul, 2008 12:55 pm
Spiegel.de reported that more than 200,000 people came to see Obama.
Even the skeptics were impressed by his speech and his charisma.

Not everyone was a fan though Laughing

http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-33614-22.html
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 24 Jul, 2008 01:10 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
Spiegel.de reported that more than 200,000 people came to see Obama.
Even the skeptics were impressed by his speech and his charisma.

Not everyone was a fan though Laughing

http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-33614-22.html


And many of those "not everyone" belongs on a2k.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  0  
Thu 24 Jul, 2008 01:13 pm
http://cagle.com/working/080723/breen.gif
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Thu 24 Jul, 2008 01:14 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
A fine speech by Obama, not too long, good lines.

...
He's a great public speaker. Light-years better then McCain, and Bush couldn't even get through a single paragraph of this speech without flubbing it.

And that's important. Good presidents need to be good speakers; we can all see what happens when they are not.

Cycloptichorn


I agree. He is an unusually gifted and persuasive communicator. However so were Hitler, Napoleon, Huey Long, and even Woodrow Wilson. These skills are important amplifiers of the leader's intentions and basic character -- for good, evil, or merely personal advancement. However, they are by no means a guarantor of beneficial achievement while in power.

History offers us numerous lessons about the risks attendant to judging potential leaders, based on these attributes. Some, like Hitler forcefully and often intelligently pursued truly evil aims. Others, like Wilson, led by their own vanity, used eloquence and their persuasive powers to lead their countries into foolish enterprises that had long-lasting bad effects. Still others, like Long, were merely feckless and exploitive populists who sought only power and personal advancement. An intelligent and eloquent leader is merely more able to advance his/her effect than one less gifted. The nature of that effect is determined by other qualities.

Obama's speech reflects some of his salient weakness as well as his talents as a persuasive communicator. His pandering to European (& German) obsessions about carbon emissions, melting Artic ice and other like distortions of known facts are an example -- a truly wise leader would recognize that the real interests of humanity require a more serious (and scientific) view of the matter. His carefully phrased references to "fair" trade are an example of pandering to the self interest of organized political constituencies in this country and in Europe that oppose free trade, and which needlessly add harm and suffering to developing areas of the world, not to mention to their own citizens as well.

I also found his rather aggressive stance with respect to Afghanistan, juxtaposed with his dismissive references to Iraq rather odd. This has been a feature of his rhetoric for some time, and I find it difficult to rationalize it on any logical basis. I have come to believe this instead is reflective of some political opportunism on his part: the Iraqi intervention is unpopular and, more importantly, it is in its final stages - a dog he can kick with good popular effect, but which won't really require any significant action on his part either way.

Overall, he is a very interesting and charasmatic figure who presents us with a very full measure of the political opportunism and bombast that sadly infects most politicians. I prefer those with more integrity, even at the cost of eloquence and charisma.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  0  
Thu 24 Jul, 2008 01:18 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
CalamityJane wrote:
Spiegel.de reported that more than 200,000 people came to see Obama.
Even the skeptics were impressed by his speech and his charisma.

Not everyone was a fan though Laughing

http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-33614-22.html


And many of those "not everyone" belongs on a2k.


So you have the right and power to say who can be on A2K and who cannot? Who knew???

What are you, the moderator of the Senility forum? Laughing
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  2  
Thu 24 Jul, 2008 01:21 pm
George - In this very thread, you lectured me about voting based on someone's platform is second to voting from the gut or emotions... something to that effect.

Now here you are talking about Hitler et al being great public speakers. Here you are talking about Obama's stances.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Thu 24 Jul, 2008 01:25 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
A fine speech by Obama, not too long, good lines.

...
He's a great public speaker. Light-years better then McCain, and Bush couldn't even get through a single paragraph of this speech without flubbing it.

And that's important. Good presidents need to be good speakers; we can all see what happens when they are not.

Cycloptichorn


I agree. He is an unusually gifted and persuasive communicator. However so were Hitler, Napoleon, Huey Long, and even Woodrow Wilson. These skills are important amplifiers of the leader's intentions and basic character -- for good, evil, or merely personal advancement. However, they are by no means a guarantor of beneficial achievement while in power.

History offers us numerous lessons about the risks attendant to judging potential leaders, based on these attributes. Some, like Hitler forcefully and often intelligently pursued truly evil aims. Others, like Wilson, led by their own vanity, used eloquence and their persuasive powers to lead their countries into foolish enterprises that had long-lasting bad effects. Still others, like Long, were merely feckless and exploitive populists who sought only power and personal advancement. An intelligent and eloquent leader is merely more able to advance his/her effect than one less gifted. The nature of that effect is determined by other qualities.

Obama's speech reflects some of his salient weakness as well as his talents as a persuasive communicator. His pandering to European (& German) obsessions about carbon emissions, melting Artic ice and other like distortions of known facts are an example -- a truly wise leader would recognize that the real interests of humanity require a more serious (and scientific) view of the matter. His carefully phrased references to "fair" trade are an example of pandering to the self interest of organized political constituencies in this country and in Europe that oppose free trade, and which needlessly add harm and suffering to developing areas of the world, not to mention to their own citizens as well.

I also found his rather aggressive stance with respect to Afghanistan, juxtaposed with his dismissive references to Iraq rather odd. This has been a feature of his rhetoric for some time, and I find it difficult to rationalize it on any logical basis. I have come to believe this instead is reflective of some political opportunism on his part: the Iraqi intervention is unpopular and, more importantly, it is in its final stages - a dog he can kick with good popular effect, but which won't really require any significant action on his part either way.

Overall, he is a very interesting and charasmatic figure who presents us with a very full measure of the political opportunism and bombast that sadly infects most politicians. I prefer those with more integrity, even at the cost of eloquence and charisma.


I haven't seen much evidence that anyone has suggest that Obama's public speaking skills are the prime reason to elect him, George. Just another check in his column, versus McCain.

I can explain that Iraq/Afghanistan issue quite easily for you: Afghanistan's gov't harbored and plotted with those who attacked on 9/11, and then bragged about it on TV afterward. Iraq did nothing of the sort. The war in Afghanistan was a war of necessity. The war in Iraq most certainly was not. The war in Afghanistan was a response to an aggressive attack upon our soil by that nation; the war in Iraq was an aggressive attack upon THEIR nation by us.

What else is there to know? There's little comparison to be made to the two conflicts. In one we have a moral mandate, the other, we do not.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Thu 24 Jul, 2008 01:27 pm
Diest TKO wrote:
George - In this very thread, you lectured me about voting based on someone's platform is second to voting from the gut or emotions... something to that effect.

Now here you are talking about Hitler et al being great public speakers. Here you are talking about Obama's stances.

T
K
O


There is no contradiction. I expressed my best estimate of what the available evidence suggests about Obama's intentions, motives and character and grounded it in meaningful references to history. None of can be certain about our judgements of such things - the future and the inner qualities of others are equally unknowable. However, despite that we must make our choices. I have provided a rational basis for the choice I have made. You are free to accept or reject it as you please.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Thu 24 Jul, 2008 01:28 pm
I find it interesting that every single thing that Obama says, especially re: the environment, is 'pandering.' What if he actually believes it? How can you know whether he does or not?

Would you be comfortable with me describing each and every McCain speech on the economy or global warming as 'pandering?'

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  2  
Thu 24 Jul, 2008 01:32 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
So how big was the crowd, really?


Compared with previous things (Love Parade, football 'fan mile' etc) there .... nearly 100,000.


Between 200,000 and 250,00. Officially. Embarrassed


Wow!
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Thu 24 Jul, 2008 01:33 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
So how big was the crowd, really?


Compared with previous things (Love Parade, football 'fan mile' etc) there .... nearly 100,000.


Between 200,000 and 250,00. Officially. Embarrassed
Shocked I say, DAMN! Very Happy
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 24 Jul, 2008 01:36 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Diest TKO wrote:
George - In this very thread, you lectured me about voting based on someone's platform is second to voting from the gut or emotions... something to that effect.

Now here you are talking about Hitler et al being great public speakers. Here you are talking about Obama's stances.

T
K
O


There is no contradiction. I expressed my best estimate of what the available evidence suggests about Obama's intentions, motives and character and grounded it in meaningful references to history. None of can be certain about our judgements of such things - the future and the inner qualities of others are equally unknowable. However, despite that we must make our choices. I have provided a rational basis for the choice I have made. You are free to accept or reject it as you please.


georgeob, Do you include Reagan in that group? LOL
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Thu 24 Jul, 2008 01:37 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I haven't seen much evidence that anyone has suggest that Obama's public speaking skills are the prime reason to elect him, George. Just another check in his column, versus McCain.

Well, "the prime reason to elect him" is a rather highly qualified and self-serving description. The fact is you have devoted a lot of air time to comparative evaluations of the candidate's skills as communicators. What then was your purpose??
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I can explain that Iraq/Afghanistan issue quite easily for you: Afghanistan's gov't harbored and plotted with those who attacked on 9/11, and then bragged about it on TV afterward. Iraq did nothing of the sort. The war in Afghanistan was a war of necessity. The war in Iraq most certainly was not. The war in Afghanistan was a response to an aggressive attack upon our soil by that nation; the war in Iraq was an aggressive attack upon THEIR nation by us.

What else is there to know? There's little comparison to be made to the two conflicts. In one we have a moral mandate, the other, we do not.


Neither war was "necessary". Both involved a good deal of discretion on our part. Just what does a "moral mandate" for war mean?? Sounds suspiciously like Jimmy Carter's infamous description of the 1970s energy crisis as "the moral equivalent of war". I don't think that anyone who had any experience or real understanding of war would be inclined to use either phrase.

The truth is both wars were motivated by self-interest, based on similar considerations, several of which were closely intertwined.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Thu 24 Jul, 2008 01:39 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I find it interesting that every single thing that Obama says, especially re: the environment, is 'pandering.' What if he actually believes it? How can you know whether he does or not?


Well, the alternative would be that he is a deluded fool. I prefer pandering.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  2  
Thu 24 Jul, 2008 01:41 pm
George - I don't buy it. Your posts on the topic of the presidency seem more reactionary to what needs to be said to drive a wedge between Obama and his supporters.

When I talked about platform issues, you told me that once in the white house it doesn't mean anything. Apparently, now you sing a different tune. Sing anything for that matter to try and make Obama lose...

Since no song will make McCain win. Bring your shovel.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 24 Jul, 2008 01:42 pm
sozobe wrote:

Wow!


OCCOM BILL wrote:
Shocked I say, DAMN! Very Happy


My " Embarrassed " was only because I was so wrong with my estimation.

Police officially confirmed the 200,000 number .... which makes it likely to be at least 250,000 in reality :wink:

Our state tv channel had some (live) reports from three pubs, where Americans are the landlords: I've never imagined so many US-citizens here were Obama supporters ...
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 24 Jul, 2008 02:21 pm
Walter, Those US citizens might even consider returning home after he's elected - or to come home and vote. LOL
0 Replies
 
 

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