Help Me Make the Case

Reread, get the point about guessing re shelter dog and children.

The argument's still going!

Just discussed it this morning in fact.

Hasn't really budged though.

What it comes down to is that he logically sees all kinds of good reasons for having a dog. He goes right up to the edge of saying "OK, let's get one."

But he plain doesn't like dogs.

Whether he's allergic to them or not, he didn't have dogs when he was a kid -- well, he sort of did, but the "sort of" is almost worse than if he didn't at all. His mother is hyper-clean and hyper-hygienic (no wonder he has allergies, right? but I digress) and easily overwhelmed. She kept thinking, at intervals during his childhood, that the family should have a dog. She'd get one. It'd last for a while, and then the shedding and the slobber and the general dog-ness would get to her and she'd get rid of it.

She continued to do this at intervals for quite a while. I met the last one -- a very sweet dog, I loved her. I realized after several months that I hadn't heard anything about her and asked -- oh, she'd been "returned." (She had been adopted from a shelter.)

ACK.

I was absolutely horrified. To E.G., that was par for the course.

He's considerably more sane and balanced, but he's really concerned that a dog will just bother him. And he doesn't want to do that to us or the dog -- get a dog, and then get to the point where he can't stand having the dog around.

He's not sure how to overcome this. I'm not either.

Meanwhile, sozlet has a pet snail.

<sigh>

Bear used to be like that... If it doesn't work out, return it. I consider pets to be children / family members. They can't be returned. I grew up with animals and Bear did not.

Sounds like the back and forth growing up probably kept EG from attaching to animals. If you know they are likely to disappear, it's easier on the heart to not get attached or claim you don't like them. (Not that he isn't honest about not liking them. More like he may not know.)

Bear is now very attached to Gracie and Puss. Dogs he's been okay with all along. Cats NEVER! Ha! Until Puss came along... Maybe an introduction and involvment in selection of the puppy is in order for EG. I don't think there's any better way to teach a child the love of life, creatures and giving of self for others and the ability to accept unconditional love and so many other things, than through a dog.

"Introduction to and involvement in selection of the puppy..." How'd that work?

Right now his answer is still "no dog." So how do we get to the "introduction and selection" phase?

We could try "just meet a puppy, see what you think" but he's met puppies and hasn't been swayed by them.

Good point about lack of attachment.

I'm interested in learning more about Maltese (Malteses?), Robert -- Harry's adorable and a lot of what you say about him is less "small-doggish" than I expected. I definitely have a big-dog bias, but several small dogs have come up as serious possibilities. The dog would be mostly sozlet's, and I think a small dog might be more doable just in terms of the space involved, especially if we do crate training (which I think we would).

Ah, I understand more now.
My mother hated cats, why I'm not really sure, but I remember hearing the cats-smother-babies-in-baby buggies thing. Various other developments kept us from having a dog. Got a dog, a stray puppy, along with my first art studio live in space.
I didn't have a cat until my husband arrived with two. Loved them right away. (sneeze).

It does seem to me the only way he'll really change is by having and loving a dog, but forcing that or even convincing him about that seems fraught with distress.

My cousins had a Maltese when we were all growing up (they're 9 and 18 years younger than me). Very sweet, lovable dog. Main thing I think is that it did need some grooming as they are very white and otherwise, well, it's like having a white carpet. But I do remember Gatsy and my memories of him are very fond and are all very positive.

That's an important thing to remember about dogs that don't shed. Their hair continues to grow, so grooming/clipping is necessary to keep it under control.

I think grooming/ clipping would be a really nice trade-off for not shedding.

It's nice and finite -- do it in a specific place, clean it up, and then you're good until next time.

Sozlet would probably love it actually! (She's at the point where she asks to do my hair, just 'cause she wants to.)

Well I only have experience with Harry, but from what I've read it's a fairly typical experience for Maltese. I've always had a strong distaste for small dogs. I find them very very annoying and their bark is like fingernails on a chalk board.

But Harry hardly barks at all, he does the watchdog bark where he'll bark if he sees someone outside by the pool from the balcony which is still irritating but he doesn't bark except for that scenario, where he's alerting us to a neighbor in the apartment building. So that barking for play or because he's mad at us isn't a factor. Nick's Shih Tzu has that annoying bark pitch, and also barks at him when she wants attention and that's the annoying part of small dogs to me.

They are very intelligent dogs (you should see him play hide and seek with us and he recognized commands like "go get mommy" or "go get daddy") and very affectionate and playful (but he's not irritatingly hyper on his own).

The wikipedia article on them is fairly accurate in my experience:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_(dog)#Temperament

That being said, he's still been very irritating to us on many occasions, and he's caused a lot of damage and we still need to get better at dog-proofing the house. His urination around the house was a big problem till he got neutered (he was crate trained well and didn't have a problem till hormones kicked in, so I recommend neutering for the behavioral problems) and used to drive us nuts. He also chewed some rather expensive things (shoes, important cords to expensive equipment) and drew on the brand new couches I had that I wanted to sell (seriously, he got a pen and drew all over the couch).

So I don't want to claim that he's not a problem at all. On the contrary, he's a big pain in the ass. But he's not "small dog" irritating to me, just irritating because he's a responsibility and that comes with work, mistakes and lessons learned (like not having anything that fits in his mouth within his reach if we mind it being chewed on).

So the irritant summary goes:
- No slobber at all.
- No shedding at all (no undercoat)
- Low barking irritation (Harry barks when he hears the neighbor through the door, but the neighbor is often drunk and barks at him to irritate him)
- Chewing has been destructive, he chews shoes, cords, and pretty much anything he can get at.
- Potty training - Has been a mixed bag for me, but a lot of that comes from not wanting to neuter him. Crate training him was pretty easy, but small dogs are notoriously hard to potty train.
- Hyperactivity - He can sometimes get on your nerves if you don't want him around because he's very affectionate and wants to get close to you. But he doesn't go nuts on his own and run around like a nut unless someone else is playing with him (like the cat).

I'm always amazed at their hair, so hairy but it doesn't come off. I'm used to dogs and cats where you run your hand over them and come away with hair but even brushing Harry often doesn't get any hair to come off.

You do need to cut or groom the hair though, because it starts to knot. But then again, I think they are pretty ugly if you don't cut them and I prefer to maintain the "puppy cut".

Here's a puppy cut:



And here's what they look like if you don't cut their hair:



Just so he doesn't look retarded is enough reason to cut his hair. We don't brush him much, and just get him a hair cut every couple months.

Thanks!

I've been researching them just now. Generally much more interesting than I would have expected.

What about the tear staining? I've been reading about how you have to use a fine-toothed comb to keep goop out of the fur by their eyes. That sounds like kind of a pain and the goop sounds gross, too.

Also where'd you get Harry? Just did a couple of searches for puppies available locally, the first batch were in the $1,500 range and the second batch were in the $300 range. I could probably just do more research on the breeders, but curious where you got him.

I like that the breed is ancient, didn't know that.

(Obviously, I need to convince E.G. first but the "no shedding" element is definitely interesting and can help with convincing.)

I don't care about the tear staining so I don't do anything about it. He doesn't get goop, just gets darker areas of his face whenever he gets wet.

The cat gets more goop in the eyes, but it dries and it's not unlike what humans get sometimes while they sleep. So I usually just brush it off with a finger when it builds up in the corner of a cat's eye, and it has the consistency of a dry booger.

If you really want a perfectly white face, you also need to worry about food (using food without much coloring) and the water (a special fountain where he can't dip his face into the water and licks off a running surface) and quite frankly I don't care if he's not bleach white.

I really never groom him (though I think he'd look a bit better if I did) and all we do is a haircut every couple months and a quick bath about once a week (he gets a bit smelly).



We just found him in a pet store in a mall and fell in love with him. I paid about $600 for him, but the prices are very different here and that's the equivalent of the $1,500 range in the US for this breed.

I didn't do any research on breeders for him, but I honestly don't think the high priced breeders are worth it in general for what I'm looking for in a dog.

First step with EG:

DO NOT in any way shape or form mention brushing away the animals eye boogers with your finger tip.

Squinney, exactly!

Sounds like goop isn't always a problem though. I wouldn't mind if there was just staining (a non-perfectly-white-face). Goop sounds gross.

All very helpful, Robert, thanks.

I'm tempted to make E.G. argue with YOU instead and see where that goes.

(By the way I showed sozlet the Harry and Fiona vids and she loved 'em -- especially loved the "give me five" one. She's smitten.)

Hi Soz,

Can I play devil's advocate here for a minute?

I grew up with cats. My first husband grew up with dogs. We were a childless couple and our golden retriever was our first and only 'child'. I became a dog person and would have gladly had a dog in my current relationship. At different stages in development, both K & M wanted a puppy, sometimes desperately.

Mr B grew up with cats. His only experience with a dog was the farm dog at Gramma's and Grandpa's farm where he spent his childhood summers. That dog was an outside yard/barn dog who was only allowed inside on the coldest winter nights and then only in the mudroom near the kitchen. Mr B's philosophy is that dogs have no place inside, my philosophy is that it's cruel to leave a dog outside in a doghouse. These philosophical differences were so deeply ingrained that neither of us was ever able to come to accept the other's point of view. We have cats. My answer to the girls whining was that dad and I have different/incompatable views on having a dog as a pet and I'd rather have a pet that we could love and care for equally than bring a source of contention into the family. They adore our cats but will probably each get a dog when they're out on their own.

My point is that from what I've read it sounds as though E.G. is pretty firm in his conviction that he doesn't want a dog. I read about his mother's revolving door treatment of dogs and wonder if he isn't able to let himself emotionally bond with a dog -- similar to the concept of the farm dog in Mr B's upbringing. Like me in my first marriage he may grow to love having a dog in the house but he may also look at it as a source of contention.

No advice here, just trying to share my perspective.

Yep, I know what you mean.

E.G. was absolutely against having a dog until pretty recently. Until that point, it wasn't really up for discussion. He was against it, and I knew that. It was something I had to struggle with a bit when our relationship became serious... when he asked me to marry him, it was part of my thought process before saying "yes." I believe in marrying the person you say "yes" to, not the person who that person might become, in the future, possibly, with a lot of training.

Animals are important to me and it was tough to think of never having one. (If EITHER cats or dogs were an option, that would be much better -- I love both.) But he's pretty amazing in a host of other ways, and I don't think a 100-point match is really possible -- a 97-point match is still pretty impressive.

BUT -- he's the one who started this phase with "this kid really needs a pet." He's playing with the idea, and edging closer overall. Because this is something I do feel strongly about (not just in terms of my own preferences but what I think is good for sozlet), I'm going to go ahead and try to convince him -- but that's the bottom line, he needs to actually be convinced before I'll do anything. He's a pretty pragmatic guy and we communicate pretty well... there have been a few times so far when I could have cornered him but I backed off and said "I want you to feel comfortable with this, I don't want you to just give in," and he's allowed he's not comfortable yet.

I have seen movement though, so I think it's possible. If not, that's OK.

Well I get his side of things as well, if ya don't like 'em you don't like 'em. I love dogs but waited till now to get one because I don't like the responsibility part.

I do think that it's possible for it to be nothing more than a minor annoyance for him (if the dog is trained right and he's not responsible personally for any of the dog's problems) but can also see it being something to get seriously pissed off about (when dog destroys something for example, or poops under the bed).

I too wouldn't want to force it on him and agree that he needs to actually buy in. And the thing is, I'm sure there will be plenty of stuff he doesn't like. I love dogs and love Harry but there have been fleeting moments when I wished I didn't have him.

I guess I can't play bad cop for ya. I agree with you and wouldn't want someone to accept a dog without completely buying into the idea. I don't like the returning of dogs idea and I think he'd have to be committed not to do the "I told you..." or "let's reconsider" as well.

But what I can do is try to paint the full picture of annoyances and how I went about resolving them and what I had to come to terms with.



I should have filmed the mess they made this morning and the things I had to clean up for the bigger picture! They went to town last night.

If you remember, I was dead-set against having a dog. I really didn't like dogs...I had been a confirmed Cat Person my entire life. Hubby and SonofEva wanted a dog. I held them off for quite a long time.

What made me change my mind?

They said I was being unfair. And, truthfully, I was. Two of the three of us wanted a dog.

So I tentatively agreed, with the provision that I would get to choose the breed. I am afraid of a lot of large dogs, and small, yappy dogs drive me berserk. I did the online "breed selector" questionnaires, and Cavalier King Charles Spaniels kept coming up. I remembered Cavfancier talking about these dogs, and the photos were very appealing. So I visited a breeder to see the dogs in person.

Sure enough, they weren't yappy and hyperactive. YAY! They were soft, quiet, affectionate, gentle, smart, beautiful, adaptable and easily trainable. We taught one of them a new trick in less than 5 minutes. And there was another advantage that I hadn't even considered. They're a "natural" breed...no grooming required. You just brush their ears and tail once a day. They shed MUCH less than my cats ever did.

Re: cost...our AKC-registered Cavalier, from a good breeder, cost $1,000.

Since I got to pick the breed, and I searched for and found the dog we got, it was much, much easier for me to accept it. I still think of myself as a cat person, but this dog has stolen my heart.

There has been a lot more discussion of this. Some people at E.G.'s office learned of it and have been harassing him. I have mixed feelings. They are making good points (they are firmly in the "get a dog already!!!" camp) but are way more strident than I would be (they even played the "if you really loved your family..." card). He seems mostly bemused so far.

Yesterday sozlet and I went to a pet store. Not to buy, just to look. It was really fun actually. This is a pretty nice pet store, clean, apparently happy animals, etc.

There were some little tabby kittens that were unbelievably cute. I picked one up (sozlet was nervous at first -- worried about claws) and she snuggled into my neck and purred up a storm. Eventually sozlet decided she was ready to hold the kitten, so I sat her down in a chair and put the kitten on her lap. The kitten wriggled around a bit, got comfortable, and then fell asleep. Sozlet was absolutely charmed. Sat there petting the sleepy kitten for a good half-hour. (The kitten would occasionally stir, look up at sozlet, then snuggle back in and go back to sleep.)

This got a little boring for me after a while (but sozlet didn't want to give up the kitten) so I went and got a Maltese puppy.

I was impressed.

Very fuzzy and cute but some smarts in those eyes. Very mellow. He had been sleeping and gave me a good going-over (visual and sniffing) and then snuggled into the crook of my arm and thought about going back to sleep. Too much interesting stuff going on though, he kept looking around.

He was so laid-back that I started to wonder if he might not be feeling totally well, so I stood him on my lap (there were little walled areas for playing with puppies but they were full) and started talking to him in a play-voice -- he perked right up, started wagging his tail and bouncing around.

Didn't shed on me at ALL. I was wearing black, and holding a white puppy, and expected to be covered -- nothin'. That was impressive.

He did have that tear-staining which was kind of gross. It sounds like some specific dogs have more or less. Also sounds like it can be dealt with.

I've never really dealt with small dogs before and I kind of like the dog-cat hybrid aspect (especially since I can't have a cat). He didn't purr, but he felt more like a cat than a dog 'cause he was so darn small. I've only ever had big dogs. I do love snuggling in a chair with an animal and reading a book for example -- a nice warm fuzzy footrest is nice but laps are even nicer.

Sozlet also really liked the puppy though she's still too damn jumpy. (This is part of why we went to the pet store, she loves to look at YouTube videos of puppies and kittens but gets skittish when she sees a real one, and that won't do.) Thought he was adorable and soft and generally wonderful. She thought "Snowflake" would be a good name. ("IF we brought him home...")

Anyway, impressive first contact with a Maltese. Thanks for the recommendation.

Things with E.G. are far from resolved but additional info helps. (For example, shedding is one thing he REALLY doesn't want to deal with.)