14
   

Help Me Make the Case

 
 
gustavratzenhofer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Mar, 2006 09:48 pm
Remind me to never question you again, soz.
0 Replies
 
Eva
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Mar, 2006 11:42 pm
If you want sweet, soft, cuddly, gentle, quiet and calm...a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel is ideal. I've never known a dog with such a perfect temperament. And they're SO beautiful...oh! those big, soft, melting eyes.

Around 20 lbs. full grown (small enough for Sozlet to pick up, just barely, but not fragile at all), no special grooming required (saves lots of money!), very smart and easy to train, doesn't require a lot of exercise, loves children and other animals, highly adaptable to different living conditions, bred to be companions. They want to be with someone all the time. My cats shed more than my Cavalier. Cost is about half that of the Labradoodles.

If you want a guard dog, though...forget it. They think every person they see is their new best friend. In case of a break-in, the most they'd do is lick 'em to death.

If Cav was still here, he'd tell you the same thing.

http://www.puppysites.com/deluxe/anga_cavalier.jpg
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Mar, 2006 11:55 pm
having suffered the illnesses that breeds carry with them (my own english cocker spaniel and littlek's boxer) I will always go for a dire street dog. not even a mix of two breeds, but a pure mut. they tend to be smarter, too, they say.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 12:05 am
I like mutts - best dogs there are, IMO. And the only time I ever was badly bitten by a dog, the perp was a cocker spaniel with a mile-long pedigree and an attitude to match. 11 stitches, as I recall.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 12:15 am
i believe that. ours is a biter, too. my mom has various scars to provide as evidence. he means no harm, but he's very, umm, possessive of his personna. no combing, no baths, without a muzzle.
we still love him, though he's now completely deaf and half of his face is kinda shrunk (mild stroke, maybe?). he's a character, always has been his own master.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 12:37 am
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RQAwHT4TfXoj0QAO4LYUzlhq3W5zaSNgz6ATOnXT7BpCtAmC4XHhZ1LA71HYPuH78hBIiuvzEtM3GRrd8ZIuRtctJ!mT1az!RldYCf13gFw/PC170065.JPG

me, my nephew, and Krispin, my ole dog. sorry, couldn't help posting. i miss the bugger so much. (he's at home, in slovakia, with my parents).
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 07:16 am
If you haven't guessed already, I'm very much a ditto on the preference for mutts.

Partly for temperament reasons, partly for health reasons, and partly because they're often found at shelters - and I'm <at heart> all about going the rescue route.

Of course, the newest vet at the clinic thinks Bailey is simply a large pure-bred Pomeranian. I say he's gotta be a mix - too many opinions out there on what he is.

If you get a young rescue that has gone through a fostering process, you'll know a lot more about the temperament than you will from a pure-bred puppy. I'm not sure where the whole hair brush thing is coming from, but most rescues I've run into (that have been fostered and assessed already) have been remarkably good-natured. I've met a lot of small to mid-size dogs that went into rescue because of people moving - not because of temperament - and the young mutts with established temperament troubles are pretty easy to steer away from. Most shelters will in fact note when a dog should not go into a home with a child. Local ones list minimum recommended ages.

Every morning, I visit with Georgie on the way to the subway. She looks like a stumpy black Irish Setter with a Pom butt. She is the loviest doviest girlDog. Weird-looking girl, but a wonderful rescue.

~~~~~~~~~~

If I was looking for a pound pup to bring into a home with a kid, I'd look at a rescue that does fostering and temperament assessments. Both of my current furkids - I got straight out of 'situations'. I likely wouldn't have done that with a kid in the house. But ... both of them are great with kids - will put up with small strangers' hands being stuck in their mouths and rough rough rough-housing by rowdy toddlers ... without much of a blink. Bailey is a bit nervous about being fallen on, since Llana fell on him a couple summers ago (and the Timber incident Cool ) , so he will tend to keep an eye on toddlers - and back away if they start wobbling.

~~~~~~~~~~

The security thing. Hmmmmmm, well I got rid of my alarm system after I got Bailey. No one approaches my house, or Miss Rita's next door, without me learning about it from Bailey's barking <unless it's someone he knows and loves, when he kinda laughs loud instead>.

There was an incident a coupla years ago, where police were going around the neighbourhood checking on something. Based on the sounds of barking coming from behind my front door - one officer stayed on the steps while the other ran to the door ... knocked ... and jumped back behind the gate. Bailey sounds big and ferocious - when we used to walk with Scout <the King Shepherd>, people always thought the barking came from Scout, not the large ball of fluff I was walking with. Ha!
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 11:22 am
Don't fall in love with a look. Fall in love with a temperament. Because that's what's really important. All puppies are cute and lots of breeds are gorgeous. But what you need is an animal that's gentle with children, patient and not a biter. I agree with the idea of getting a mutt, but one downside is that there's less you'll know in advance, so it does pay to know something about breeds, as every mutt is of course made up of two or more recognized breeds.

There are 7 groups of dog breeds as recognized by the AKC:
    (1) Sporting - these are dogs bred for hunting. Pointers, setters, retrievers, griffons and spaniels are in this group. The labrador retriever and golden retriever are, as you have probably learned, the two most popular dog breeds in the US. The lab is #1 and by far, and both have been popular for a long time. There's a reason for this. They are good with people, good with kids and are very trainable. Labs and goldens make up a huge percentage of the service dogs in the US. Both will live for a thrown ball. The others are less popular although the cocker spaniel is still popular. The downside to a cocker is you will need to have it groomed, either professionally or you'll have to do it yourself (they have curly coats that will mat if they are not groomed regularly). They aren't as excited about a thrown ball but tend to be nice, too. Pointers are pretty large as are some setters (the Gordon, for example). Irish setters are well-known and tend to be kinda goofy. Irish setters and golden retrievers are also shedding machines. (2) Working - these are the larger breeds and tend to be some protection dogs though not always. German shepherds are in this group, so are Mastiffs, St. Bernards and Newfoundlands. Oh, and Rottweilers, too, Malamutes and Huskies as well. Our Jake was mainly Mastiff and was a sweetheart, but he was also huge and a drool machine. I've had Rottweiler/Doberman mixes that have been kind of flighty. The thing with any of these is, because of their size, they are powerful and good training is a must. What's cute at the puppy stage is downright frightening later. (3) Toy - these are the opposite of the working group. They are small (the largest is the Pug) and bred for companionship. Some are downsized versions of larger breeds, such as Toy Poodles, Manchester Terriers and the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. Small dogs live a long time but are not necessarily without health issues. Cavs have an inherited heart issue which can kill them at a young age. Breeders are actively working to try to get that gene out of the population. Pugs can have breathing problems. Many of these breeds require grooming. (4) Herding - Shepherds and Collies make up this group. Typical is the Border Collie; it lives for herding sheep and will herd your family if there are no sheep around. These are intelligent dogs that enjoy puzzles and will get bored if they don't have jobs. Bored dogs are destructive and whining. Some, such as the Old English Sheepdog are real shedders, too. (5) Hound - these can be classified as either sight or scent hounds. Sight hounds are tall and often very fast runners. Greyhounds are in this group. Scent hounds tend to be short and squat, such as Beagles but the Bloodhound is also in this group. Scent hounds sometimes engage in a howling, keening cry that is loud and very annoying. We had a Beagle mix when I was growing up, and he barked at everything. A little barking is okay and pretty much all dogs do that, but this dog barked at falling leaves. Sight hounds are less barky but can be escape artists. You never, ever want to have one unleashed in the open as they will take off after a rabbit or whatever, including into the street, with no thought for consequences. Greyhounds go in bursts of energy but are otherwise couch potatoes. (6) Terrier - these are small, prey-driven dogs. Sometimes they can be yappy. They are curious and can get into mischief. We owned a Staffie (Staffordshire, this is a type of Pit Bull) and she would quiver at the sight of a squirrel, salivating and ready to pounce. These dogs can also be diggers and some require grooming. Some Schnauzers are in this group. (7) Nonsporting - these are the dogs that kind of don't fit into the other groups. This means the two bigger varieties of Poodle (Standard and Miniature), plus Boston Terriers, Dalmatians and pretty much all forms of Spitz dog except the Pomeranian, which is a toy breed. Temperament varies. Poodles need grooming. They are also water dogs, big time swimmers. Dalmatians can sometimes be deaf. Bostons can have breathing issues and snore like freight trains.


Keep in mind, of course, that temperament varies widely, but there is something to be said for what a dog was bred to do. And you can work that to your advantage in training, playing and having activities. Border Collies that love to run and corner are excellent at Agility, they can also be good at Flyball. Retrievers also like Flyball. Working dogs like Schutzhund and Skijoring. Terriers like Earth Dog Trials. Geryhounds like some Agility and Lure Coursing. Sporting breeds enjoy Hunting. Working breeds like Cart-pulling. ESPN sometimes shows dog sports and any and every breed can and will do any and every kind of activity, but you may find that a mainly sight hound dog is more interested in Lure Coursing than Schutzhund, for example.

One option is breed rescue. I believe that all recognized breeds have some sort of a rescue organization for dogs that have not worked out at their placements or were relinquished or found as strays or whatever. Try the AKC for this info: http://www.akc.org/index.cfm Also, the AKC has a lot of other good information. Oh, and Greyhounds tend to have local rescue organizations that place the retirees from local tracks.

Very young puppies will require training and patience. Older puppies (about age 1) are teens and can be a real pain in the patoot. Older dogs tend to be past all of that, and then it's really down to temperament more than anything else. Some shelters do a better job training dogs than others do. I'd assume that any dog, even a trained one, would need some sort of training, simply to get the two of us used to one another, if nothing else.

Ever see The Dog Whisperer, Cesar Milan? http://www.dogchannel.com/dog/experts/cesar/default.aspx?Google_Cesar Or Uncle Matty? http://www.unclematty.com/training/allabout.htm Cesar tends to be more about the natural state of being of the dog, whereas Matty tends to be more about the inherent puppiness of dogs (domesticated dogs tend to be somewhat childlike so Matty plays off that). The methods differ and both have their followings.

Oh, anyway, I know this is long and I'm rambling, but to sum up, it's not going to be a perfect experience. For an experience with no whining, no poop, no walks and less shedding, get a cat.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 11:49 am
A big thumbs up from me for Cesar Milan - a showman, yeah, but he speaks dog like a native. Kinda sorta met him a while back - it was a seminar affair for rescue/foster stuff, before he got TV-famous. He's real big on establishing yourself as the alpha dog; fair, just, kind, predictable, caring - but unarguably, unambiguously the pack leader, the rule-maker, not to be challenged. That's pretty much always been my approach and its always worked for me, with everything from weiner dogs to wolves.


And a big echo on the notion that temperment is the big thing to look for and judge by. All puppies are cute and cudly - that's their job, it encourages acceptance and nurturing both from dogs and humans. Look beyond that, look out for and avoid a pup that displays nervousness, irritability, aggressive possessiveness, that sorta thing.
0 Replies
 
Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 11:56 am
Arguing points:

Both children and dogs are pack animals. Right now, the Sozlet is a beloved only child and to a certain extend the household revolves around her and her needs--which is as it should be.

The drawback to being raised in a household with 2/3 adults, 1/3 child is that everyone else is smarter than she is. Everyone else is going to lean over backwards to make her happy or keep her happy. I'm not talking about spoiling here--I'm talking about what happens when the Tribal Chiefs out number the Tribal Indians.

A puppy is going to have goals and needs and behavior patterns that will completely ignore the Sozlet. Dealing with the puppy, Sozlet's actions will bring consequences. If she leaves something delectable and crunchy at puppy level, puppy will chew. If she comforts puppy in thunderstorm, puppy will become braver. No matter what she does, no matter how annoyed or preoccupied both loving parents are, puppy is always going to think she is wonderful.

Sensible burglars avoid houses with dogs. Crackheads don't. On the other hand, if the dog doesn't react to a mysterious noise in the night, the mysterious noise in the night is probably semi-imaginary. Being brave is much easier when a child is in a pack of two.

Dog training (both "Come. Sit. Stay" and "Roll over. Play dead. Beg for biscuit" requires hands on patience. Good intentions aren't enough. Smart kids learn a lot from dogs with Wolf I.Q.'s rather than high scores on a Standford-Benet.

I'm very pro-dog for any household.

One of the California Indian tribes had a creation legend which told of God walking through the void, creating the universe--with his dog by his side.

It is not good to be alone in this world.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 12:12 pm
What a beautiful post, Noddy. That's exactly why we got
a dog. Having just one child to dote on, a dog is almost like
a sibling to the child.

We got a little mutt from a rescue center, and his disposition
is that of a caring, loving dog, and it hasn't changed in the
7 years he's been with us. He was around 3 years old
when we got him, not too small, and not to big (25 lb.),
just a lovable teddybear.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 12:18 pm
My thoughts exactly, Noddy, though as always, you state them both cogently and lyrically.

Jes, I think everyone would prefer a cat, actually, except for one thing -- E.G. is allergic.

The allergies thing is the main reason I like Labradoodles, in fact, followed closely by temperment, which is ideal (calm, intelligent, sweet) -- the cuteness is just a bonus. (There are many other dogs I think are more visually appealing.) I just don't like (non-allergenic) poodles much, in any size or version, even though I know that Standards have a lot going for them. I love Labs and Goldens, especially as ingredients in a mix. So Labradoodles (or Goldendoodles) solve all kinds of problems at once -- EXCEPT for price.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 12:21 pm
Oh, thanks, CJ, for your perspective there. Very similar experience to what we'd be doing, sounds like. How old was your daughter when you got the dog? How did you handle the whole pack aspect?

To redirect a bit if I may, the breed is really the least of my concerns at this point, though the non-allergenic aspect is very useful. I'm mostly interested in building that factual, convincing case for why sozlet should have a dog.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 12:23 pm
(Noddy's statement counts as fact, though, that's goin' in. :-))
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 12:24 pm
http://www.petnet.com.au/power/benefits.html
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 12:25 pm
http://www.aacap.org/publications/factsfam/75.htm
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 12:32 pm
This one has lots of good stuff!

http://www.pethealthcouncil.co.uk/people.shtml

Still looking for original studies and not just where they're referred to, that one might have it if I get the booklet. (Will pursue later.)
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 12:33 pm
http://shop.robbinspetcare.com/resources/benefits.html
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 12:34 pm
She was 3 1/2 years old, sozobe, and after the initial getting
to know phase, the dog positioned himself as my daughter's equal. He liked to sit in her car seat, sat in her chair, and
adopted playing with stuffed animals, just like she did.

Now that she's getting older, he slowly adapts to a lesser role. He recognizes her as his superior.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Mar, 2006 12:38 pm
Studies!!!

http://www.deltasociety.org/AnimalsHealthChildrenChildren.htm

Really good one here:

http://www.deltasociety.org/AnimalsHealthChildrenEnhancing.htm

I started to quote, but the section I wanted to quote kept getting longer and longer... that one is JUST the kind of thing I've been looking for, yay!
0 Replies
 
 

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