14
   

Help Me Make the Case

 
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 12:49 pm
Yep! :-) (That was in the first post, as why I'm doing this in an attempt close the deal...)
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 12:52 pm
I can't find what I was looking for, maybe someone else can help me figure out a hook for finding it here (I'm pretty sure I talked about it here) or via Google?

It was about a school that was in danger of closing, that was on a zoo or a farm or something, where part of the curriculum was taking care of animals. There were a lot of references in the article to studies about how important nurturing animals is for kids, how much more they get out of it than you would think, and how spectacularly successful the graduates of this school were.

I'm pretty sure it was a New York Times article, but "zoo school" and "zoo farm" haven't yielded anything yet.

"Curriculum" too, maybe?
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 01:33 pm
Haven't found it, but found this in looking for it:

http://www.holistic-online.com/Pets/pets_pet-therapy-benefits-of-pets.htm

Quote:
Studies report that children who live in homes in which a pet is considered a member of the family are more empathetic than children in homes without pets.

This could be due to a variety of reasons:

Children see animals as peers. They can identify better with animals than human beings. Animal psychology is very simple. With animals, what you see is what you get. Humans are not as direct. We need to develop talent to read and interpret "body language." Children can read an animal's body language.

As children get older, their ability to empathize with animals will carry over into their experiences with people.


(Now to FIND one of those studies...)
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 01:39 pm
Quote:
Research is revealing that older pets have a positive impact in many other ways, as well. Robert Poresky, associate professor of Family Studies and Human Services at Kansas State University, is one of dozens of researchers who are examining the impact of having a pet in the home. His findings include evidence that children who are involved with and attached to pets develop higher levels of empathy, learn responsibility earlier, and may even have higher IQ scores than children who don't have pets.

"In one study, we found that 3- and 4-year-olds with pets were better able to understand the feelings of other children than those without pets," Poresky says. He also says there are life lessons to be learned from taking responsibility for a pet. "A dog or cat won't always do what the child wants them to do, and that can be very important," he says. "This helps kids learn that there are other perspectives and ways of looking at things."

It's not just having a pet in the home that benefits kids, Poresky says. It's the involvement and time the child spends with a pet. "The more they do together, the greater the positive impact on a child's life," he says.


http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/2-18-2002-11785.asp

This Bob Poresky is a good lead.

Quote:
MANHATTAN -- Having a friendly cat or dog around the house can do a lot more than provide a little fun and enjoyment for children, a sociologist at Kansas State University has concluded.

The time-honored family dog, for instance, might also be a factor that can boost a child's overall IQ scores, reports Bob Poresky, associate professor of family studies and human services at KSU.

"The key thing here is not just having the pet, but the child's relationship with the pet," Poresky said. "Generally, we see some increases in IQ scores and other measures of cognitive functioning in children who have a relationship with a pet."

Poresky's conclusions are based on research conducted among 88 Manhattan-area households during the past five years. The study included questionnaires and in-home visits with parents of young children ranging from 3 to 6 years of age, Poresky said recently.

Earlier this year, Poresky's conclusions were published in an issue of Anthro Zoos, a veterinarians' journal that focuses on how animals interact with human companions.

Poresky is quick to point out that simply having a cat or dog in the home will have little or no effect on the child's development.

"It's the involvement and time the child spends with the pet companion that is important," Poresky said. "The more children interact with a pet, the greater the impact on the child's development."

Poresky also cautions that not even the best relationship between pet and child will replace a far more powerful factor that determines human intellectual development -- the overall quality of a child's home environment.

"By that we mean the extent to which the home environment encourages intellectual development," Poresky said. "But one of the things an animal does with the child is to help give the child an understanding of the world from the pet's viewpoint. That factor may stimulate cognitive development, which in turn can boost IQ scores."

In Poresky's test sample of Manhattan youngsters, children in homes with pets had IQ scores that averaged five points higher than youngsters living in households with no pets, primarily dogs and cats, Poresky said.

"We're talking about pets that respond to kids," Poresky said. "And we found that the stronger the relationship between pet and kid, the probability goes up for higher IQ scores."

Parents bear the major responsibility to select a pet that will be suitable for small children, Poresky says.

"We found that people tend to interact more with dogs and cats, with dogs being more social overall than cats," Poresky said. "Generally, the best pet is the one that responds to people -- the ones that come to you when you're sad, and sort of snuggle up and say, 'Hey, it's OK.' This is the type of pet who provides reassurance to humans."

Aside from the probable benefit of higher IQ scores for children who are in charge of a pet, Poresky's data suggests another benefit -- a key impact on the development of stronger empathetic responses for children with dogs and cats.

"One of the things a companion animal does for a child is to increase the child's understanding from the animal's viewpoint," Poresky said. "It's important for children to learn to see the world from viewpoints other than their own. If the child knows that he's got to walk the dog every day, even if the child doesn't always want to, that's an important lesson to learn."

In addition to giving IQ tests to his sample group of children, Poresky's research also involved interviewing parents about the child's on-going relationship with the companion animal.

"We wanted to know how much time does the child spend ... with the animal, and does the child touch and care for the animal's basic needs," Poresky said. "We also wanted to know if the animal sleeps in the same bed with the child, and does the animal usually travel with the child."

Poresky said one of the strongest roles a pet fills for a child is to serve as a sounding board for the child, much like having another human in the household to talk to.

"That's what parents told us," Poresky said, "that the kids frequently use the pet for listening to the kids' problems."


Aww...
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 01:45 pm
Interesting article with good info about which breeds are a good idea for kids. (Cavalier King Charles included, with an emphasis on good for only children...)
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 01:53 pm
OK, this one's big:

http://www.deltasociety.org/download/poresky.rtf

Refers to a lot of other studies that I can look up in turn, too.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 02:03 pm
nursing.msu.edu/habi/S_Walshaw.doc

Quote:
Summary: What Animals Have to Offer

• Nonjudgmental, unconditional love and affection
• Opportunity for touch: important for all age groups
• Chance for laughter and play
• Opportunity for development
• Outlet for nurturing (makes us feel needed)
• Enhancement of self-esteem and emotional security
• Link to the natural world
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 04:00 pm
Shelter dog people, does this look good?

I'm currently going towards timber's first suggestion -- a young shelter dog.

The stuff about fostering makes a difference to me, (was that flushd?) I had been imagining older puppies/ young dogs languishing in cages without much socialization.

This site is interesting:

http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/dogbreeds/index.html

It's a sobering look at the downsides of various breeds as well as the upsides, and strikes me as being accurate if a bit alarmist. At any rate, the author's emphasis on a puppy being potential while an adult/ young dog is already there resonates with me.

Quote:
There are plenty of adult [purebreds] who have already proven themselves NOT to have negative characteristics. If you find such an adult, don't let "typical breed negatives" worry you.

When you acquire a puppy, you're acquiring potential -- what he one day will be. So "typical breed characteristics" are very important. But when you acquire an adult, you're acquiring what he already IS.


Plus, in terms of making the case, a dog with some training is easier than a puppy. I'm seeing many dogs at local shelters that are housetrained, already fixed, etc.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 04:19 pm
When we went to the shelter/rescue center, the dog we
ultimately chose, adopted US, not the other way around.
He just followed me around and sat next to me, when I paused.

He was so darn cute and seemed to have a great disposition.
Later we found out that he was very well trained, listened to commands and could sit up and move his front paws to beg - successfully I might add. He's the most gentle dog we've ever had.
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 04:24 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
When we went to the shelter/rescue center, the dog we
ultimately chose, adopted US, not the other way around.
He just followed me around and sat next to me, when I paused.


It was the same with Zoe. It was obvious she wanted to come home with us....she put her paws out to my hubby while I was holding her. It was love at first sight. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Eva
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 09:39 pm
sozobe wrote:
Interesting article with good info about which breeds are a good idea for kids. (Cavalier King Charles included, with an emphasis on good for only children...)


There is some misinformation in that article. Cavaliers are NOT high energy. In fact, they are LOW energy. They do not require much exercise, making them ideal for apartments and older people. Our Cavalier loves going for walks, but doesn't really need to. That's great for us, because we don't like walking dogs in really cold or really hot weather. (And Oklahoma gets both.) I do agree that they're perfect for only children, though. It has sure worked out that way for us. And that's one of the strongest points you could use...Sozlet needs a "best friend."

Cavaliers are about the only small dog we could find that has a "big dog" temperament. They're not jumpy and yappy at all...very calm and easygoing. Our son wanted a dog he could pick up and carry around, one who would sit with him and sleep with him at night. Our cats won't do any of that. The dog, however, is thrilled.

We got ours at 8 months old, which was ideal for us. He was already potty trained, so we got to skip the "messy puppy" stage. (Whew!) Still young enough to train, though. And we knew exactly what his personality would be like...no guessing.

You might look at a Cavalier/Poodle or Cavalier/Bichon mix for a hypoallergenic dog. Just a thought. Here's a "Cavachon"...aren't they adorable!

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images12/Cavachon.JPG
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 11:12 pm
aaawwww, what an adorable pup! He's got these button eyes -
really cute.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Mar, 2006 11:20 pm
I really lobby hard for adopting shelter pups - and lotsa good shelters will have a fairly comprehensive dossier on surrendered pups - not on picked-up strays, of course, but on pups folks have brought in on their own. Most good shelters will allow a "trial period" of sorts, too; if the pup doesn't work out over a few days or so, you can "exchange" it for another. Shelter pups generally have been vet-certified, had their immunizations and neutering handled, and have had at least some leash experience. All in all, I think dollar-for-dollar, dog-for-dog, your best bet is a shelter pup.
0 Replies
 
Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Mar, 2006 07:09 am
I nearly forgot. Family dog is a wonderful jumping off point for birth control.

Our Irish Setter went into heat when younger son was in second grade and still involved in Show & Tell. His contribution for the week was a accurate explanation that while Sasha smelled like a grown-up dog she was really only a puppy and not ready for motherhood.

I met a number of mothers of second graders over that episode.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Mar, 2006 07:35 am
Eva wrote:
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images12/Cavachon.JPG


Imagine one of these little critters around the home!
Awww, lovely! Very Happy
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Mar, 2006 08:39 am
sozobe wrote:
Shelter dog people, does this look good?

I'm currently going towards timber's first suggestion -- a young shelter dog.

The stuff about fostering makes a difference to me, (was that flushd?) I had been imagining older puppies/ young dogs languishing in cages without much socialization.

This site is interesting:

http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/dogbreeds/index.html

It's a sobering look at the downsides of various breeds as well as the upsides, and strikes me as being accurate if a bit alarmist. At any rate, the author's emphasis on a puppy being potential while an adult/ young dog is already there resonates with me.

Quote:
There are plenty of adult [purebreds] who have already proven themselves NOT to have negative characteristics. If you find such an adult, don't let "typical breed negatives" worry you.

When you acquire a puppy, you're acquiring potential -- what he one day will be. So "typical breed characteristics" are very important. But when you acquire an adult, you're acquiring what he already IS.


Plus, in terms of making the case, a dog with some training is easier than a puppy. I'm seeing many dogs at local shelters that are housetrained, already fixed, etc.


Book looks okay, can't really tell from the quickie blurbs.

One thing about going the breed rescue route (or Greyhound rescue) is, you end up with certain differences already decided. E. g. in a standard shelter, you have dogs of all breeds and all sizes, whereas in a breed rescue type of situation, all of the dogs are pretty much the same in many ways, so you focus a lot more on temperament. That was our experience with Greyhound rescue -- you stopped focusing on getting the smallest dog or whatever and instead it was a lot more apples to apples rather than apples to oranges.

I agree that some dogs really do choose their owners, and some don't. At Greyhound rescue, we took a female out for a quick spin around their back area, and she bolted. It was a very clear indication that she wasn't interested in our company.
0 Replies
 
TTH
 
  0  
Reply Tue 17 Apr, 2007 09:44 am
Gus,
Is it this?

You know I feel like an idiot doing this Evil or Very Mad
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Apr, 2007 10:04 am
Soz
I just discovered your thread and have not read beyond the first page so I don't know if this has been discussed.

When my children were small, we had lots of dogs, cats, chickens, rabbits, ducks, etc. One of the joys of our "funny farm" was my children witnessing the birth of dogs and cats and caring for the newcommers as well as watching the animals interacting with other and getting along.

It would be a wonderful experience if you found someone with a dog about to give birth and who would allow them to attend the birth and help to care for the pups. Your daughter will remember that experience all of her life and it would create a deeper bond with the dog.

Just a thought.

BBB
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 07:10 pm
@sozobe,
I know this is another old thread (I'm tagging your threads) but what happened? Did you get a dog? I really want you to win this argument.

sozobe wrote:

E.G. (my husband) really, really doesn't want a dog.


I saw elsewhere that you said he thinks he may be allergic to dogs, but not all dogs are the same and mine (a Maltese) doesn't shed at all, even though he's pretty hairy (just cut it all off recently because he'd get clumps).

Quote:
I think hamsters and gerbils and fish and such are fine but are really pale substitutes for a cat or a dog. And E.G. isn't that much happier about any of them, anyway.


Those don't teach you much about responsibility, as you can pretty much ignore them if you want. Ignore a dog and there will be problems.

My girlfriend and I are taking the thought of kids much more seriously after the responsibility of taking care of a dog. He acts like a baby and has daily needs. There are days we'd rather not have a dog but having one forces daily responsibility onto us.

Quote:
1.) Puppy or adult shelter dog?

I am reflexively against getting an adult dog because a child is involved and one can't know the whole history of an adult dog and why it is at the shelter. I can't stand the thought of sozlet grabbing a hairbrush, say, and the dog lunging at her because it had been beaten with a hairbrush. Can anyone help me with my thinking there?


I once lived with a family that replaced their breeder dog (who was too aggressive with kids) with a shelter dog. The shelter dog was just great till the moment you would leave it alone and it would destroy everything (I mean everything). The first time I thought it was a burglar because the dog was otherwise so good but a trip inside a convenience store and chewed seatbelts and a destroyed car interior made clear what the problem was.

The dog has significant issues with separation anxiety. Now I don't think there's a lot of difference, and my story really tells both sides of it (the breeder dog was a problem too) but I like the puppy idea as well.

I've always loved dogs, and loved the dogs I lived with. But I've never loved any dog like Harry, and I think that's because I knew him as a baby as much as it is because he's my dog.

Quote:
However, I do like the idea of getting a puppy, too, because a) they're so darn cute!! and b) you can raise them in a certain way and help shape a certain kind of dog. (Sweet, loving, calm, etc.)


And this is good for sozlet too! Training a dog is a good learning experience.

Quote:
2.) What breed/ cross of breeds?


Maltese! Ok, I'm biased but they are "hypoallergenic" (if you believe in that sort of thing), don't need that much exercise (won't go nuts inside if you fail to walk the dog), and aren't usually as barky as the small annoying dog stereotype (Harry also sounds like a bigger dog, which is a plus for me since small dog barks are frickin' annoying!). Plus, they are smart.

Sozlet needs a dog! I'm late to this argument and hope there's still a chance.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 07:29 pm
@Robert Gentel,
I never loved any dog like Pacco and I met him at something like six, but I'm not arguing re puppies, really. I see the point. You meet the puppy with all its vulnerability and all its joy and potential, and never mind that, it's love.

I'm 4+ re dogs and cats on tests, but vary in real life. It takes me a long time to work up allergy to Dante, D and D's cat, very hairy cat, though it will show up if he's been sleeping in the guest room and I happen to be sleeping over, which isn't often. Have been very allergic to a poodle, famed for being non allergenic.
Some of this may have to do with threshold of sensitivity, a concept I learned but have mostly forgotten the details of. As in, once you get going, anything will set you off.

I was never really allergic to the Pacc, also an extremely hairy being.

This from a person who used to sneeze several hundred times a day back in the days of the irish setter and two cats. Washing the irish setter set me back some hours every time, and I only held him still.

So, what? antibody levels and histamine production and their baselines.. I don't know the answer, just saying you might research some of the recent work on that.
 

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