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Holocaust denier gets three years

 
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Fri 10 Mar, 2006 10:53 am
That's something I'm very aware of, Walter. I wish more people were.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 10 Mar, 2006 10:54 am
I know you are - and Steve is as well, since he's seen the exhibition there.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Fri 10 Mar, 2006 11:06 am
I think its worrying if in Germany/Austria 2006, the nazis are still so strong that laws are required to suppress them. Do you really think that if the laws were repealled they would gain support?

Its a long time since the end of WW2. It would have been strange indeed not to ban the nazi party at the end. [quite intolerable for all those who fought against nazism]. But unless the ban is to be for all time, it has to be repealled at some stage, and I think using it to gaol historians is counter-productive.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 10 Mar, 2006 11:16 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
I think using it to gaol historians is counter-productive.


It isn't used to gaol historians - I've never heard of such - but Holocaust deniers.
(Irving, btw, isn't an historian but an author of several best-selling books dealing with history topics. [He briefly studied physics at Imperial College London.])
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Fri 10 Mar, 2006 11:19 am
ehBeth wrote:
I find it disturbing when lies are referred to "interpretations" of history.
What lies? Is it a lie to disagree with an estimate?
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Fri 10 Mar, 2006 11:27 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
I think using it to gaol historians is counter-productive.


It isn't used to gaol historians - I've never heard of such - but Holocaust deniers.
(Irving, btw, isn't an historian but an author of several best-selling books dealing with history topics. [He briefly studied physics at Imperial College London.])
True, I should have said self-styled historian. Just before they gaoled him, didn't he say he made a mistake, and no longer denied the Holocaust?
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Walter Hinteler
 
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Fri 10 Mar, 2006 11:29 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Just before they gaoled him, didn't he say he made a mistake, and no longer denied the Holocaust?


Correct - only to start it even worse again with a radio interview out of his prison cell the next day:

Irving vents Holocaust denial in jail cell interview
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Fri 10 Mar, 2006 11:31 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Just before they gaoled him, didn't he say he made a mistake, and no longer denied the Holocaust?


Correct - only to start it even worse again with a radio interview out of his prison cell the next day.


Yup, I heard the interview on the CBC (from the BBC originally I think).

Holocaust denial is lying. I've simply got no sympathy for that. None.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 10 Mar, 2006 11:35 am
Heard it on BBC, too:

Quote:
"Given the ruthless efficiency of the Germans, if there was an extermination programme to kill all the Jews, how come so many survived?" he said, in an interview on BBC Radio 4's Today programme.


Audio link to BBC 4 interview with Irving

(Broadcasted origianally on BBC 4 at 06:37 h on Tuesday 28th February 2006)
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Fri 10 Mar, 2006 11:49 am
This whole thing is crazy. Irving is in gaol for "denying the Holocaust". But he said he did not now deny the Holocaust, he made a mistake 16 years ago when he first said it. However he pleaded guilty to having said it...a serious offense 3 years at least.

So off you go to gaol Mr Irving. You will find our Austrian penal system fair but firm, and we hope you will take time to reflect on what you have said. Is there anything you want?

Yes please, I would like to hold a press conference from my cell. Certainly.

Later...we understand that you have questioned the degree of the holocaust and Hitler's responsibility for it from your prison cell. The fact that we allowed you to speak to reporters makes us complicit in this wicked crime and therefore guilty as you are. If you can please move over in your cell, the Austrian judiciary will be joining you for the duration of your sentence.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 10 Mar, 2006 11:54 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
The fact that we allowed you to speak to reporters makes us complicit in this wicked crime and therefore guilty as you are. If you can please move over in your cell, the Austrian judiciary will be joining you for the duration of your sentence.


Now come on: he isn't jailed yet but still on detention while awaiting trial: so he gets first class food from a restaurant, can keep his private clothes etc etc
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old europe
 
  1  
Fri 10 Mar, 2006 11:55 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
This whole thing is crazy. Irving is in gaol for "denying the Holocaust". But he said he did not now deny the Holocaust, he made a mistake 16 years ago when he first said it. However he pleaded guilty to having said it...a serious offense 3 years at least.

So off you go to gaol Mr Irving. You will find our Austrian penal system fair but firm, and we hope you will take time to reflect on what you have said. Is there anything you want?

Yes please, I would like to hold a press conference from my cell. Certainly.

Later...we understand that you have questioned the degree of the holocaust and Hitler's responsibility for it from your prison cell. The fact that we allowed you to speak to reporters makes us complicit in this wicked crime and therefore guilty as you are. If you can please move over in your cell, the Austrian judiciary will be joining you for the duration of your sentence.


Well, as far as I know Irving gave an interview to an Italian paper right before the trial, and denied the Holocaust even then. I absolutely doubt that mistake 16 years ago. That's not how he came across. Sure, he'd say anything in a trial (probably advised by his lawyer), but nobody has to buy his statements in the face of evidence.

That interview from the cell - interesting point, Steve. However, holding him incommunicado wouldn't really be a solution either.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Fri 10 Mar, 2006 11:56 am
ehBeth wrote:
Holocaust denial is lying. I've simply got no sympathy for that. None.
I have no sympathy for liars either. What is truth?
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old europe
 
  1  
Fri 10 Mar, 2006 11:57 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
I have no sympathy for liars either. What is truth?


History is history, and politics is politics. I wouldn't assume that there are several historical truths, would you?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 10 Mar, 2006 12:00 pm
old europe wrote:

That interview from the cell - interesting point, Steve. However, holding him incommunicado wouldn't really be a solution either.


(Of course Louise will jump in here again and tell me that I confessed to know not too much about Austrian law ...)

As far as I could find out about the Austrian penal system law, it's quite similar to our German.
Prisoners waiting for trial ("Untersuchungshäftlinge") have nearly all freedoms - besides 'freedom'.

(Generally this is: a judge/courts can cut that as well.)
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Fri 10 Mar, 2006 12:02 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
The fact that we allowed you to speak to reporters makes us complicit in this wicked crime and therefore guilty as you are. If you can please move over in your cell, the Austrian judiciary will be joining you for the duration of your sentence.


Now come on: he isn't jailed yet but still on detention while awaiting trial: so he gets first class food from a restaurant, can keep his private clothes etc etc
from the Times article you linked to

Quote:
He is spending 23 hours a day in solitary confinement at the start of his punishment, which Austrian prosecutors are seeking to extend to 10 years because of Irving's "special importance to rightwing radicals".
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Fri 10 Mar, 2006 12:11 pm
old europe wrote:
History is history, and politics is politics. I wouldn't assume that there are several historical truths, would you?
There are as many historical "truths" as there are historians INTERPRETING the evidence. We cant get to the absolute truth, even about things happening right now. We just make our best estimates and hope it all works out.
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old europe
 
  1  
Fri 10 Mar, 2006 12:16 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
old europe wrote:
History is history, and politics is politics. I wouldn't assume that there are several historical truths, would you?
There are as many historical "truths" as there are historians INTERPRETING the evidence. We cant get to the absolute truth, even about things happening right now. We just make our best estimates and hope it all works out.


Yes. But denying the Holocaust doesn't seem to fall into the category of interpreting the evidence.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 10 Mar, 2006 12:19 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:


Quote:
He is spending 23 hours a day in solitary confinement at the start of his punishment, which Austrian prosecutors are seeking to extend to 10 years because of Irving's "special importance to rightwing radicals".


It's okay for a journalist to report such but nevertheless not true since both the prosecution as well as the defence appealed.

Besides, according to the Austrian media, he's still in pre-trial imprisonment, and gave another interview to the Austrian Press Agency APA a week ago, saying "there is absolute no proof an organised holocaust of the Jews". This interview was allowed by the judge as well.

Link to Standard of March 2, 2006, in German.

(The prof, I studied 'law of penal system' at, had taught before the same subject at Vienna university. According to him, both the German law and the Austrian were very similar: seems to me, he wasn't so wrong :wink: )
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Fri 10 Mar, 2006 12:29 pm
well perhaps Irving if he is still wearing his civilian clothes and getting good food from nearby restaurants wants to stay in the Austrian prison system for the rest of his life, as he has been made bankrupt in the UK and facing all sorts of difficulties here.

Just when the Austrians are about to release him, he'll ask to speak to another reporter so he can stay a bit longer. Smile

You have to admit Walter this whole episode has an element of farce about it.
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