Christians & Muslims Keep Out. Only Humans Allowed.

MomaAngel,

People kill, and die for those things that matter most to them. Protection of the nest, or extention of tribal resources and territory, has been motivating folks longer than we've written history. It is chauvinistic and it is sometimes irrational, but our herd need goes very deep. Religion is one of those characteristics that defines "our herd" from "other".

That is a pretty general obsservation, and it doesn't really reflect how the human need for religious definition has evoluted into modern religion. It was with the invention of univeralist monotheisim that true religious intolerance began. As long as there were many gods and each place or tribe had their own gods, there wasn't a whole lot of sense in prostelitizing. If you were victorious in battle and had good fortune your gods were strong, and your group might be pretty hesitant about extending their god's favor (how presumptious) to the "other". If your lot was defeated, you weren't killed, it might be time to hold try outs for a new god. Gods came in a variety of quises, and not all of them might be recognizable as being in "human" or "animal" form, afterall gods are not the same as Men ... though the Greeks liked the idea. Imagine the Athenians fighting a religious war to extend the worship of Athena to a city-state where the reigning god was Hercules. Absurd.

The religious strife surrounding Akhenaten shook Egyption civilization to the core (some even believe was the seed from which the monotheisim of Judahism from the grotesque Pharaoh). The Chosen People kept the spark alive, and in time it gave root to two varients that extended the reach of Abraham's God to other tribes. Now the poison was loose on the world, and every other religion has suffered since. Neither Christian and Islamic varients recognize the validity of any religion beyong their own varient of the Abrahamic God. Both have long histories of slaughter to extend the reach of their version of God. Both have waded hip deep in gore to the glory of their ideals. Both have gladly been martyrs and murders in the name of religion. It was bad enough when the crossbow was the best military technology available, but in the 21st century religious warriors are just a bit out of date. It is the focus on what men's religious idealism and zeal that keeps suicide bombers in business, just as it has motivated Christian missionaries who converted "heathens" under the sign of the bayonet. A pox on both your houses.

Other religions that have managed to evolve and survive into modern times have almost no history of religious-based conflict and violence. Typically, followers of these religions will die in their defense, but its hard to find any significant effort to extend their reach ... even by friendly persuasion. Followers of other religions are no different than those who follow Christ or Mohammet, except they don't have the "alturistic need" to extend their versions of "Truth" to other people, whether they want it or not. Christians and Muslims are so easily offended, but neither seem to feel any shame at all for their own crimes and religious insults.

In fact the fundamentals of some of those despised heathen religions are directed at selflessness, compassion, and religious tolerance.

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Momma Angel wrote:

I don't know if it's pride or what but once the focus is taken off God and put on what man wants it gets scary.

IMO it is when the focus is put on what PEOPLE THINK GOD WANTS that it gets scary.

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My post above is obviously in need of editing, but I was in a hurry to eat supper. Priorities, my dears, priorities. At least lets see if we can fix this crazy, mixed up sentence: "The religious strife surrounding Akhenaten shook Egyption civilization to the core (some even believe was the seed from which the monotheisim of Judahism from the grotesque Pharaoh)." Ouch, now that is pretty bad ... my steak was tasty though, so my conscience may let me sleep tonight.

Religious strife caused by Akhaneten's monothieism shook Egyption civilization to the core. Some believe that Judahism was influenced by the grotesque pharaoh's religion, and afterward became much more universal in its monothieism. There that's a bit better. Long convoluted sentences often need to be broken down into more digestible chunks. (Chew your steak, dearie). I'm not so sure that that Akhenanten had a major influence on how the Jews percieved God, but some do.

Please forgive my other lapses above. I wonder if there might be another little portion of candied carrots that might go to waste if I don't raid the refrigerator, hmn? Sometimes we worship over gravy-stained plates and lick our spoons that the Gods not feel we are ungrateful for their bounty. Maybe there's a cookie left in the cookie jar.

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mesquite wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
I don't know if it's pride or what but once the focus is taken off God and put on what man wants it gets scary.

IMO it is when the focus is put on what PEOPLE THINK GOD WANTS that it gets scary.

I see nothing scary about the golden rule. God wants us to do good to one another. Stop focusing on serving ourselves and serve one another. We serve God by obeying this.

That's heaven.....what is being created in this world...is something else.

That's scary.

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vinsan wrote:

Hey Momma,

I know that people are going to interpret it this way.

But I want people to understand while entering this thread they need to keep their religions outside and enter truely as a human. No need to involve any religious discussions, as there are plenty of threads already doing so.

Thats it.

Why the heck come to a Religion and spirituality banner to invite religious people to stay out?

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The monotheism of Judaism probably came more directly from Ezra the Priest a courtier or some sort of capacity in Emperor Cyrus' court. He was an agent of Cyrus, a Zoroastrian, to convert the polytheistic Hebrews.

The First Commandment: ' Thou shalt have no other gods before me' indicates a religious environment of multiple gods. The Canaanite pantheon consisted of seventy gods/goddesses representing the seventy nations on earth. The Father of the gods was El, symbolized by the bull. Isra-el, the 'el' means of God 'El'. Micha-el, Jo-el, Rach-el, No-el are all names associating with the Paternal God El, the Father God of a polytheistic religion.

Judaism is really Zoroastrianism with a local flavour i.e. instead of Mazda, YHWH was substituted. All the cleanliness rules in Leviticus inserted unexplained are explained in the Zoroastrian cleanliness book of Vendidad. Even the name Pharisee from which modern Jews evolved suggests Persian as as their language is Farsi or Pharsee and inhabitants are called Parsees.

You can see that Zoroastrianism cannot hold on as the Parsees were driven out of Persia and migrated to India. Judaism, Judean variant of Zoroastrianism also seems to suffer the same fate as its parent Zoroastrianism, trying to survive.

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Asherman,

I agree with a lot of what you say. I don't agree with some others. I have found myself in situations where there will be quite a few Christians talking. They will start talking about different doctrines and in very short order, there is chaos. It seems to me that this starts happening the minute someone has to feel they are absolutely right.

Now, I have my beliefs and I am very strong in them. However, if someone does not agree with me in every respect I don't feel threatened or that I have to prove I am right and they are wrong to the point of berating them because they don't believe as I do. I wish I could pinpoint exactly why this has to occur. Why do so many have problems agreeing to disagree? I know plenty of people that are not religious and they can agree to disagree. I know religious people who can agree to disagree. But, is it just pride? What is it that makes us have to be right?

I really appreciate your posts. I've learned a lot from them and I really think maybe you can help me with this issue.

Snood,

Great question. I always figured one should expect religious people in an S&R thread myself.

Bartikus,

I am right there with you on what is scary.

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snood wrote:

vinsan wrote:
Hey Momma,

I know that people are going to interpret it this way.

But I want people to understand while entering this thread they need to keep their religions outside and enter truely as a human. No need to involve any religious discussions, as there are plenty of threads already doing so.

Thats it.

Why the heck come to a Religion and spirituality banner to invite religious people to stay out?

Would'nt it be more rational/logical to ask those without religion and spiritual beliefs to stay out of S&R snood?

I think that was done previously and many were offended.

I don't take any offense to this......it always helps to consider the source.

The source? Just another imperfect, irrational, illogical,,,etc. human.

Don't fret about it....your not alone.

The idea of caring for one another can be scary simply because it is an idea that most humans can agree would be good to do yet has not been used in widespread practice.

Change can be scary....but sometimes neccessary.

For the sake of future generations....let's be kinder to one another just to shake things up. Be a rebel!

Don't be surprised by some who will oppose you all the more by being kind, nice, considerate, etc...to them.

If a Christian tells someone they are worthless.....they are told they are unchristian and horrible (sub) human beings.

If a Christian tells someone they are of great value or irreplacable.....they are told they are fake or holier than thou.

No matter what......Christians will be opposed.

Why?

They are opposed after all by.....humans. Humans who they themselves have more than enough flaws to deal within themselves.

Maybe pointing out the flaws of others makes people forget about their own.

We will all face them some day. Sooner....or later.

If pointing out a believers God as an 'imaginary friend' gives you any form of satisfaction within yourself....even temporarily, then I'm glad you have found that satisfaction.....at least for moment.

I hope the satisfaction will continue to outweigh the price.

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Momma

Quote:

I wish I could pinpoint exactly why this has to occur. Why do so many have problems agreeing to disagree?

It's not a question of agreeing to disagree with people such as these; its winning. And winning means my ideas are right and yours are wrong. The religious beliefs of these people has nothing to do with their determination to prove that they are right. When you present an idea or dogma contrary to their belief they are threaten; their belief is threaten. So they will attack and defend their territory. There is no compromise. Remember what Bush said? "Your either with us or against us."

The problem you have is you don't think like them so you don't understand them. They are as strange to you as suicide bombers are to us. And, perhaps, it's this lack of empathy and understanding that leads to so much conflict.

What is happening between these competitors is the same thing as two countries going to war, only on a much smaller scale.

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xingu,

Thank you so much for that post. I have been wrestling with this probably pretty close to day one of my starting on A2K. I can't deny that I am guilty of some of this myself to a degree. I will pray for those that don't believe and I won't lie about that and I will ask others to pray for people too.

But I needed someone to pinpoint for me what you just did. It is about winning to some? Maybe that will help me in my future dealings with others on A2K.

I greatly appreciate your help!

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xingu wrote:

Momma

Quote:
I wish I could pinpoint exactly why this has to occur. Why do so many have problems agreeing to disagree?

It's not a question of agreeing to disagree with people such as these; its winning. And winning means my ideas are right and yours are wrong. The religious beliefs of these people has nothing to do with their determination to prove that they are right. When you present an idea or dogma contrary to their belief they are threaten; their belief is threaten. So they will attack and defend their territory. There is no compromise. Remember what Bush said? "Your either with us or against us."

The problem you have is you don't think like them so you don't understand them. They are as strange to you as suicide bombers are to us. And, perhaps, it's this lack of empathy and understanding that leads to so much conflict.

What is happening between these competitors is the same thing as two countries going to war, only on a much smaller scale.

It's funny to talk about peoples territory.

The Cherokee had it right knowing that men cannot own land.

Nothing that can be taken from you....is truly yours.

It is foolish to latch unto these things since time itself will seperate you from them.

Pursue that which cannot be taken.

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snood wrote:

Why the heck come to a Religion and spirituality banner to invite religious people to stay out?

I had to form this post because to me Humanity is the greatest religion of all. We all belong to it. SO ENTER IF YOU ARE HUMAN.

Also I never said "spiritual people stay out" but people of religions. I am trying to get their views about being humans BUT NOT AS CHRISTIANS, MUSLIMS OR OTHERS.

But unfortunately what I found is most people participated here involved their religious thoughts during discussions. Thats what I did not intend.

Talk about humanity not about Islam, christianity or others.

If you still find me wrong in my idea of "Humanity as Religion" then I was totally wrong in putting up this thread on the first place.

But then that would be sadly discouraging Sad

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xingu wrote:

Quote:
xingu, now you tell me How a THING like Religion becomes so much of a issue when your intelligence tells you that there are more reasons to fight for. I mean you are getting voilent for some set of thoughts you have believed in and there are several others who dont and make fun of it. So by killing a few does that solve the issue?

Religion becomes an issue when you become convinced that your religion is better than your neighbor's. When your neighbor believes his religion is better then yours you have competition, a competition of faiths. This competition and the quest for believers leads to wars and bloodshed. There are reasons behind this.

May I suggest you read a good history on the Christian religion. Christianity became powerful through persecution of competing religions, both Christian and non-Christian. May I also suggest you take a look at what is happening today in the Muslim world. The past conflicts between Catholics and Protestants; between Hindus and Muslims during the partition of India.

I'm not saying religion is the cause of all conflicts in the world but religion has been a major source of bloodshed in the past, present and, I'm sure, in the future.

I know crusades, xingu. I know bloody Massacre of Hindus or muslims during Indian Partition. Wasn't that simply to gain power of a country? I mean we have been calling our greed for power "A Religion" or more preciisely "way to God" and literallly used it for our own sake.

Now Thats convenient. isn't it!

So I definitely AGREE with following lines of yours

Quote:

The more converts you get the greater your wealth and power.

And DISAGREE with ...

Quote:

But ultimately the idea is to make everyone believe in your God and your method of worshipping that God.

It was never God anywhere. It was Wealth and Power ONLY. You talk about religious superiotity but who enjoys superiority? Your religion or Common people of your religion? No!

Leaders, Kings, Rich people persue such acts to gain more power, more money. A Simplest reason is their Greed.

xingu wrote:

Quote:
I am no fool and I know that when I give food to a starving child I am already in my heaven!

Therefore your saying all religion in the world is based on your feelings and belief?

But thats what a HUMAN would do? Isn't it? Are My beliefs or thoughts any different than yours?

And Anyways I never tried to impose them on anybody here.

My point is : We have been fighting for Religion since ages. Now why can't we openly admit that its NOT religion we kill for but pure greed of power.

So why we still blame religion for it? Blame the damn greed.

Isn't that obvious?

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xingu wrote:

Quote:
xingu, now you tell me How a THING like Religion becomes so much of a issue when your intelligence tells you that there are more reasons to fight for. I mean you are getting voilent for some set of thoughts you have believed in and there are several others who dont and make fun of it. So by killing a few does that solve the issue?

Religion becomes an issue when you become convinced that your religion is better than your neighbor's. When your neighbor believes his religion is better then yours you have competition, a competition of faiths. This competition and the quest for believers leads to wars and bloodshed. There are reasons behind this.

May I suggest you read a good history on the Christian religion. Christianity became powerful through persecution of competing religions, both Christian and non-Christian. May I also suggest you take a look at what is happening today in the Muslim world. The past conflicts between Catholics and Protestants; between Hindus and Muslims during the partition of India.

I'm not saying religion is the cause of all conflicts in the world but religion has been a major source of bloodshed in the past, present and, I'm sure, in the future.

I know crusades, xingu. I know bloody Massacre of Hindus or muslims during Indian Partition. Wasn't that simply to gain power of a country? I mean we have been calling our greed for power "A Religion" or more preciisely "way to God" and literallly used it for our own sake.

Now Thats convenient. isn't it!

So I definitely AGREE with following lines of yours

Quote:

The more converts you get the greater your wealth and power.

And DISAGREE with ...

Quote:

But ultimately the idea is to make everyone believe in your God and your method of worshipping that God.

It was never God anywhere. It was Wealth and Power ONLY. You talk about religious superiotity but who enjoys superiority? Your religion or Common people of your religion? No!

Leaders, Kings, Rich people persue such acts to gain more power, more money. A Simplest reason is their Greed.

xingu wrote:

Quote:
I am no fool and I know that when I give food to a starving child I am already in my heaven!

Therefore your saying all religion in the world is based on your feelings and belief?

But thats what a HUMAN would do? Isn't it? Are My beliefs or thoughts any different than yours?

And Anyways I never tried to impose them on anybody here.

My point is : We have been fighting for Religion since ages. Now why can't we openly admit that its NOT religion we kill for but pure greed of power.

So why we still blame religion for it? Blame the damn greed.

Isn't that obvious?

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xingu wrote:

Quote:
xingu, now you tell me How a THING like Religion becomes so much of a issue when your intelligence tells you that there are more reasons to fight for. I mean you are getting voilent for some set of thoughts you have believed in and there are several others who dont and make fun of it. So by killing a few does that solve the issue?

Religion becomes an issue when you become convinced that your religion is better than your neighbor's. When your neighbor believes his religion is better then yours you have competition, a competition of faiths. This competition and the quest for believers leads to wars and bloodshed. There are reasons behind this.

May I suggest you read a good history on the Christian religion. Christianity became powerful through persecution of competing religions, both Christian and non-Christian. May I also suggest you take a look at what is happening today in the Muslim world. The past conflicts between Catholics and Protestants; between Hindus and Muslims during the partition of India.

I'm not saying religion is the cause of all conflicts in the world but religion has been a major source of bloodshed in the past, present and, I'm sure, in the future.

I know crusades, xingu. I know bloody Massacre of Hindus or muslims during Indian Partition. Wasn't that simply to gain power of a country? I mean we have been calling our greed for power "A Religion" or more preciisely "way to God" and literallly used it for our own sake.

Now Thats convenient. isn't it!

So I definitely AGREE with following lines of yours

Quote:

The more converts you get the greater your wealth and power.

And DISAGREE with ...

Quote:

But ultimately the idea is to make everyone believe in your God and your method of worshipping that God.

It was never God anywhere. It was Wealth and Power ONLY. You talk about religious superiotity but who enjoys superiority? Your religion or Common people of your religion? No!

Leaders, Kings, Rich people persue such acts to gain more power, more money. A Simplest reason is their Greed.

xingu wrote:

Quote:
I am no fool and I know that when I give food to a starving child I am already in my heaven!

Therefore your saying all religion in the world is based on your feelings and belief?

But thats what a HUMAN would do? Isn't it? Are My beliefs or thoughts any different than yours?

And Anyways I never tried to impose them on anybody here.

My point is : We have been fighting for Religion since ages. Now why can't we openly admit that its NOT religion we kill for but pure greed of power.

So why we still blame religion for it? Blame the damn greed.

Isn't that obvious?

0 Replies

xingu wrote:

Quote:
xingu, now you tell me How a THING like Religion becomes so much of a issue when your intelligence tells you that there are more reasons to fight for. I mean you are getting voilent for some set of thoughts you have believed in and there are several others who dont and make fun of it. So by killing a few does that solve the issue?

Religion becomes an issue when you become convinced that your religion is better than your neighbor's. When your neighbor believes his religion is better then yours you have competition, a competition of faiths. This competition and the quest for believers leads to wars and bloodshed. There are reasons behind this.

May I suggest you read a good history on the Christian religion. Christianity became powerful through persecution of competing religions, both Christian and non-Christian. May I also suggest you take a look at what is happening today in the Muslim world. The past conflicts between Catholics and Protestants; between Hindus and Muslims during the partition of India.

I'm not saying religion is the cause of all conflicts in the world but religion has been a major source of bloodshed in the past, present and, I'm sure, in the future.

I know crusades, xingu. I know bloody Massacre of Hindus or muslims during Indian Partition. Wasn't that simply to gain power of a country? I mean we have been calling our greed for power "A Religion" or more preciisely "way to God" and literallly used it for our own sake.

Now Thats convenient. isn't it!

So I definitely AGREE with following lines of yours

Quote:

The more converts you get the greater your wealth and power.

And DISAGREE with ...

Quote:

But ultimately the idea is to make everyone believe in your God and your method of worshipping that God.

It was never God anywhere. It was Wealth and Power ONLY. You talk about religious superiotity but who enjoys superiority? Your religion or Common people of your religion? No!

Leaders, Kings, Rich people persue such acts to gain more power, more money. A Simplest reason is their Greed.

xingu wrote:

Quote:
I am no fool and I know that when I give food to a starving child I am already in my heaven!

Therefore your saying all religion in the world is based on your feelings and belief?

But thats what a HUMAN would do? Isn't it? Are My beliefs or thoughts any different than yours?

And Anyways I never tried to impose them on anybody here.

My point is : We have been fighting for Religion since ages. Now why can't we openly admit that its NOT religion we kill for but pure greed of power.

So why we still blame religion for it? Blame the damn greed.

Isn't that obvious?

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Extremely sorry for repeated posts. Embarrassed

The website reponse was too slow. So I mistakenly posted it multiple times.

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The believer has made the ultimate wager, he has bet his immortality on his faith. Any challenge to that faith is a threat not only to his present life but on the existence of his soul. It doesn't matter that is all a fiction. That he really does not possess a soul to be saved, that he won't be spending eternity in some lofty celestial palace, that his bet is placed upon nothing but wishful thinking.

Imagine being willing to die for wishful thinking.

Why not? Religions, all of them, are based on the balance between fear of the unknown and certainty. Religions imply that they provide certainty and thereby eliminate fear, but the opposite is true. They provide certainty by increasing the fear of death and loss of immortality.

They cannot imagine what would replace such wonderful beliefs, Asherman wonders if it's communism, it's not. It's reality.

Reality contains fears and hopes and goals and love, all of it embraced by the people in it. It is the here and now without fear of death. Death, my dears, is just the end. We shall all reach that end someday but in the meantime hold on to life and the living and discard all ideas of wishful thinking.

Joe(you bet your life)Nation

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Quote:

My point is : We have been fighting for Religion since ages. Now why can't we openly admit that its NOT religion we kill for but pure greed of power.

So why we still blame religion for it? Blame the damn greed.

Isn't that obvious?

No, that is not obvious. Do you think Osama bin Laden is fighting for money? He was a millionaire that gave up the easy life to fight for his religious beliefs. You can't buttonhole every conflict and say it's for nothing but greed.

Tamerlane was a Muslim fanatic who believed that killing infidels was a duty he must commit his life to so as to spread and strengthen the Muslim religion. When he conquered a region he would commit wholesale slaughter of non-Muslims, building large pyramids with their heads, and spare those who worshipped Allah. His was a religious motive, not a greed motive.

Many religions taught intolerance and hatred for other faiths. Some teach it today. This was particularly true of Christianity in its first 1,500 years or so. For over a thousand years the Europeans periodically persecuted the Jews. This was done with the aid of both the Catholic and Protestant religions. It culminated in the Holocaust.

Religion can be used as a tool to rally the people. But it also can be the focal point on which a war may be fought. To fight and kill for your God; to spread the faith; this is a worthy motive to kill for. And why not; your reward will be salvation.

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Well said Joe.

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Christians & Muslims Keep Out. Only Humans Allowed.

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