Christians & Muslims Keep Out. Only Humans Allowed.

Re: Christians & Muslims Keep Out. Only Humans Allowed.


I think we've always been vulnerable in this way. Crowds have been led and mis-led for eons.

One big difference now is that we are aware of more things, due to a global media. Inflamatory ideas can spread fast and wide now, and we get to see all the results, even if they are half a planet away.

Re: Christians & Muslims Keep Out. Only Humans Allowed.


Who makes crowd? Humans. Each of them is intelligent enough to know that there are several reasons to die for than volatile issues like religion.

I understand when you fight for your country for saving your people, I understand when your family is in trouble & you die to get them out of it, I agree when you see a crying baby a starving child you fight to get them comfort. Aren't those pretty valid reasons?

Lash Wrote:

[quote]How can one breathe with one's nose constantly up everybody's cornhole?[/quote]

You know, my first reaction to this was well why don't you tell me because it seems your head is stuck.... but I thought I'd go with this instead.

I have not been bothering you. I have only been addressing you as the posts concerned the topic at hand. Once you addressed me in a manner other than the topic, you opened that door.

I am tired of this kindergarden game. You don't like me. Fine. I get that. I think we all get that. If not, everyone, Lash does not like me. Lash obviously has an issue with me. Ok? Now, everyone knows. Feel better?

I am not interested in a tit for tat or bite for bite with you or anyone else. I have been doing my best to stick to the topics and answer the posts and have been called names and other unnecessary crap from you. I am more than willing to just ignore you for the rest of my life and you can ignore me and we can stop this.

I'm 50 years old. I am not five years old and I'm not getting drawn into an argument with you or anyone else. So, I suggest you put on your big girl panties and just deal with the fact that I will post on A2K as long as I want to. As long as I do not violate the TOS there is nothing you can do to make me stop posting.

So, are you going to be a big girl and stop? Are you just going to accept the fact that I really don't like you much either? You know what, I don't like every person in the world and I doubt you do either. That's life sugar. Just life. Build a bridge and get over it.

You don't get a free pass. You'll be called on your bs every time.

There's nothing you can do to stop me.

That's life, sugar.

Get over it.

Lash,

For the sake of harmony, I will no longer respond to your posts. I am not going to involve everyone else in this silly little game. I have offered an olive branch and you have not accepted. So, I will just extend it and not expect your hand to reach out for it. I forgive you and I only wish good things for you.

I will no longer respond to your posts.
____________

Promises, promises.

human:humane;urban:urbane?

urban:urbane;ethan:ethane?

ethan:ethane;ensign:insane?

Re: Christians & Muslims Keep Out. Only Humans Allowed.


Good point.

Re: Christians & Muslims Keep Out. Only Humans Allowed.
This is true. I have been outraged recently about something in Australia. Forgotten what it was though, damn.

vinsan


Religion becomes an issue when you become convinced that your religion is better than your neighbor's. When your neighbor believes his religion is better then yours you have competition, a competition of faiths. This competition and the quest for believers leads to wars and bloodshed. There are reasons behind this. The more converts you get the greater your wealth and power. But ultimately the idea is to make everyone believe in your God and your method of worshipping that God.

May I suggest you read a good history on the Christian religion. Christianity became powerful through persecution of competing religions, both Christian and non-Christian. May I also suggest you take a look at what is happening today in the Muslim world. The past conflicts between Catholics and Protestants; between Hindus and Muslims during the partition of India.

I'm not saying religion is the cause of all conflicts in the world but religion has been a major source of bloodshed in the past, present and, I'm sure, in the future.

Therefore your saying all religion in the world is based on your feelings and belief?

Vinsan,

There is a great deal of confusion here as to your intentions for the thread. As already noted, the thread title is provocative in suggesting that Christians and Muslims aren't human. I don't believe that was your intention, but perhaps you are suggesting that religion is not, or should not, be given precedence over our more fundamental humanity. This seems to be born out by some of your later postings. Because of the uncertainty left by your "careless" writing, folks have gone off in directions in search of their own favorite hobby-horse. You need to be much clearer about what it is you'd like to discuss.

To Xingu's statement, " We are the same animal and are motivated by the same things" you made a couple of responses. (1) "No! RELIGION was never there when we were animals. We basically fought for Food, Water, cloth and Shelter when being animals."; (2) "Secondly A religion SUGGESTS a way to live & it can never be a REASON to die for, and (3) "xingu, now you tell me How a THING like Religion becomes so much of a issue when your intelligence tells you that there are more reasons to fight for. I mean you are getting voilent for some set of thoughts you have believed in and there are several others who dont and make fun of it. So by killing a few does that solve the issue?"

I'd like to rspond to those assertions, and Xingu can speak for himself later.

(1) We have always been mammals, and will remain so. We share with our cousins the drive to hold onto life, maintain full stomachs, and engage in the procreative act as often as we can. We are territorial and herd animals, who use tools to modify our environment. We are probably somewhat more subject to fear, anxiety, and suffering than other mammals because our communications system is so much more sophisticated. Sophisticated language is a contributor to the invention of complex socio-cultural norms for human tribes. We still struggle and are willing to fight for territory, dominance, etc., and that will probably never change so long as our species endures.

Is that all we are? Are we defined predominately by our genetics? Is the opposable thumb and upright posture the sum of us? Obviously, I don't believe so. Religion has nothing whatsoever to do with our biology, but it has a whole lot to do with the cultural context of our individual tribal affiliations. Who can say when "religion" first became a part of human societies, and what is "religion" anyway? Our capacity for asking questions and seeking explanations for all the uncontrollable things that happen to us may have existed even in the earliest times. What is birth and death about? Is there meaning to our existence? On balance, I'd say that religion is so much a part of our species that it might almost be innate. Various tribal groups designed their own answers to the "big questions" that concerned them. They designated some behavior and belief as taboo, and designed ritual to make positive outcomes "more likely". So far as we know all religion up until the time of Akhenaton was polytheistic. Some ancient religions personalized the forces of nature and some did not, but I know of no ancient peoples who did not have some form of religion.

(2) I believe your second statement is incorrect. Human religions, with very few exceptions, don't "suggest" a way to live, they define acceptable and unacceptable behavioral/thought norms. If an individual or group reject the fundamental doctrines of a religion, they are no longer defined by that religion. This does not mean that there isn't considerable room for variation within most religions, especially those who have managed to successfully expand far beyond their original socio-cultural origins. Doctrinal drift increases in direct proportion to the time and distance from the religion's origins. The Abrahamic religions, for instance, have split into Judaic, Christ, and Islamic branches, but all still share the fundamental monotheistic concepts (exclusivity, God as Man writ large, finite universe, Doctrines supposed to be directly from God, etc.). Within each of these three branches, of Abrahamic religion there are countless other variations, often quite at odds with one another.

Not only do religions define proper belief/behavior, they are strong motivators for personal sacrifice. Abraham was willing to cut his son's throat on the direction of his God, and Isaac, we are told, was willing to give up his life on divine direction. Christians make a big deal of their willing martyrdom in the Roman area. How many Muslims must blow themselves and innocent children to Allah's heaven, to convince you that Islam can strongly motivate individuals to die for their beliefs? Now you may argue that in your opinion those human sacrifices for the sake of religious belief are foolish, but obviously many sincere religionists disagree.

(3) Xingu wrote, "As long as there are humans there will be competition. Competition breeds war and violence.", to which you replied: How can religion be a reason for war and violence? Simply to spread your own religion across the globe. Right! OK whats next? What purpose has it served to humanity? Nothing. Its ultimately the pure Greed for power & money, for which they use religion as a reason. Smart people (leaders who manipulate it) don't die for it, they use the religion for gaining power. Its ultimately many fools who kill themselves under the impression that by dying for their religion, they will achieve Heaven.

Xingu, it seems to me, was only commenting on the innate competitive nature of our species, not on the specific role religion plays in our penchant for killing one another. I believe that I've addressed the question of "how can religion be a reason for war and violence" above, and don't see any need to expand upon that here. Not all religions are missionary. There is no significant missionary efforts made by Judaism, Hinduism, Confucism, Taoism, Shinto, nor the aboriginal religions of America, Africa, or Australia. The followers of these religions, and others not named, sincerely believe that their beliefs are in harmony with universal forces. Many of these religions regard their religion not so much as a personal choice, but rather the expression of a larger universal pattern favoring their own tribe. Some religions DO believe that their divine mission is to convert ALL other peoples to their own religious belief. All religions other than their own are to some degree damned, and an expression of evil. Listen up you Christians and Muslims whose self-righteousness has no room for the possibility that other religions are just as valid as your own parochial belief.

Has religion served a "good" purpose for humanity? Is religion really only a matter of popular manipulation by a few "evil" conspirators acting for greed and power? Ancient religion provided an explanation for the inexplicable, but it also defined proper and improper behavior that strengthened the tribal group. The taboos generally applied only to the tribe, and those outside the group were at best only demi-human. One might be honored for stealing from another tribe, but within the group theft must have been an early taboo. Similar behavioral strictures defined sexual pairings, doing harm to other members of the tribe. These early norms became the foundations of our ideas about Law and Justice. Group roles were defined, and that helped the tribe to prosper and remain competitive. Courage, loyalty, and all of the other virtues provide a yardstick for "civilized" behavior (though the meaning of "civilized' varies from society to society). Religion is one of the most important "glues" we have for organizing ourselves. You suggest that the "smart leaders" who manipulate religion for their own benefit never are willing to die for their beliefs. Now that's patently absurd, and the number of examples of "church leaders" and founders of religion who chose death for their beliefs is exceedingly long and well-known.

Wholesale condemnation of religion is not justified. If religion were to be scrapped, and I don't believe that is remotely possible, what would be put into it's place? Communism and other 20th century totalitarian regimes thought they had wonderful alternatives to the "Opium of the Masses", but they turned out to be only nightmares inhabited by terrifying monsters. What you might describe as "humanism" is itself a product of many millinia of religious evolution. Western Civilization and its values are all derived from ancient religious belief systems, and it's turned out reasonably well.

Re: Christians & Muslims Keep Out. Only Humans Allowed.


It's amazing isn't it. People routinely get worked up over things which are as far removed from their physical world and culture as can be.

Many generations claim that the world has more wrong with it now than it used to, but it may be that we are just aware of things which were previously unknown to us.

I doubt that I would say we are more "aware" as that implies understanding. I would say we understand less and less as more and more information passes in front of our brains.

I know I've taken this sentence out of context, but it was a long post. There are many who would indeed condemn religion without equivocation. I'm not sure if I'm one.

I meant "aware" as in "Monkey see, monkey do". Or in this discussion, "Monkey see, Monkey worry".

even then.

Asherman sure makes a lot of sense. I am still pretty much left with the belief that the only reason people kill or commit crimes in the name of religion is because of the need it seems for man to have to be right. I don't know if it's pride or what but once the focus is taken off God and put on what man wants it gets scary.

A live and let live attitude is a great thing to have but, unfortunately, a pretty difficult thing to follow 100% as long as a person thinks about themself in any way. Once one starts thinking "me" then there goes the live and let live and it's then become live like I think you should.

I think everyone does this to some degree. The second a temper flares because someone disagrees, an offensive remark made about how someone lives, etc. I'm not sure NOT doing this is actually something we as human beings can accomplish. I'd like to think we can, but I just don't know.

Can anyone of us become so selfless that we will put aside how we believe and feel completely so that someone else can? I definitely have to admit that no, I haven't been able to do it all the time.

Re: Christians & Muslims Keep Out. Only Humans Allowed.

Hmm people killing each other over religious differences.
How novel

I'm with you vinsan. Free the Humans, Free yourself

to hell with humans, coyotes rule.