Well, hello everyone. I am Unreasonable. Nice to meet you all.
Wrong is wrong, despite what the Bible says? Are you being serious Questioner?
Momma Angel wrote:Well, hello everyone. I am Unreasonable. Nice to meet you all.
Wrong is wrong, despite what the Bible says? Are you being serious Questioner?
Very. Especially here in the US where rights and liberties have so much importance. You don't agree with the allowance of those rights to a specific group based upon a few lines of text in a book attributed to an invisible being.
Unreasonable? I'd say so. People have willingly given their lives for what they believed was a country founded on rights. Therefore it ill becomes us as a country to cast aside rights in favor of something a being that may or may not exist, may or may not have said.
You will abstain, fine. That doesn't excuse the fact that you're still wrong in regards to liberty and freedom. If you don't wish to disagree then don't speak up about it, because disagreement will be the result every time. However, I doubt anyone here that feels strongly about the issue will agree to just 'let it go'.
Questioner,
DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? You and others are telling me that I am wrong because of my beliefs. You and others are telling me that I am wrong because I am not going out there and actually cast a vote! You know, kind of like imposing what YOU AND OTHERS feel and want on me!
Now, if the shoe were on the other foot, I would be being told that I AM FORCING my beliefs on someone.
You and others are essentially forcing your beliefs on me by not wanting to allow me to believe what I believe because I won't do it your way!
Honey, I AIN'T BURGER KING, OK? :wink:
Momma Angel wrote:Wrong is wrong, despite what the Bible says? Are you being serious Questioner?
I think so.
Mathew 7:12
12. So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Luke 6:31
31. Do to others as you would have them do to you.
We're telling you you're wrong* because you've offered as much empirical evidence for why gay people shouldn't get married as Abby offered for why dogs are reptiles.
I'm perfectly comfortable telling Abby (or her equivalent) that no, dogs aren't reptiles. Until it seems like an utterly hopeless exercise, anyway.
<shrugs again>
*(Although in fact it's been much more towards "why do you think you're right?")
I am going to get my umbrella. :wink:
Parable of the Good Samaritan
Luke 10.30-37
This parable was spoken by Jesus in answer (and to answer) one question ... "who is my neighbor?" (Luke 10.29). So, the parable gives the answer to that question.
Many of you have heard endless interpretations of the details of this parable. They are all vain speculations. The details simply give an authentic setting for the teaching of the simple truth Jesus was teaching. Jesus does not give us cause nor permission to spiritualize the details of the story. Augustine (St. Augustine, according to the RCC) may have been "moved" to spiritualize the details, but the movement was not of the Holy Spirit, nor have Evangelical preachers who have seen "types and shadows" in this parable been following the leading of the Spirit or Biblical context principles of interpretation.
The parable answers the question "who is my neighbor?" with a very realistic and believable story. For indeed, there were many highway robbers operating even in those days, and most people travelled in groups to avoid being attacked by those robbers.
So, who is it that Jesus says we are to love as ourselves? Who is our neighbor?
The Jewish religious leaders who passed by could excuse themselves from being defiled by touching this broken man beside the road, for they could theologically say he must have sin in his life, and thus deserved to be punished ... why else would God have "permitted" it to happen to him? That was their theological belief (known as Deuteronomic theology, based upon Deuteronomy 28; a lot of people today want to try to appropriate the blessings of Dt 28 today {prosperity and hyper-faith "Gospel"}, but don't want to take the curses with it!), and so it excused them from responsibility to people who "just brought it on themselves."
I'll NEVER forget sitting at the table in the home of a couple who have pastored a couple of churches. The wife grew up in a Pentecostal parsonage. The conversation turned to the call that Nancy and I have professed as being called to Haiti. This dear lady absolutely left me speechless when she said "Why go there and help them? If God created them in that condition, why change what God did?" Lord, have mercy on those who work hard to "better" their living conditions and financial security, and then look down their noses at the poor as being created that way ... they must deserve it, etc.
Our neighbor is anyone we see in need. And, of all things, it took one of those "mixed race" people, a Samaritan, who were despised by the Jews, to demonstrate what we are to do for our neighbor. Jesus knew how to really skewer proud, religious people with earthy, realistic illustrations like this. Hopefully none of us found ourselves skewered too deeply as we read through this today.
__________________
Hopefully, some WILL be skewered deeply, because of their fake belief that they are superior to other people.
Re: JB
Sturgis wrote:Class of people? For crying out loud this is exactly WHY there is so much resistance across the nation towards gay marriage. When you decide that gays are a class of people you are negating the people themselves. I happen to be a homosexual man, I do not however generalize my being as part of the gay class. That is just insulting BBB and quite frankly I am more than a little surprised at you since you are usually much more open minded.
Well how about classy people, that's sort of like a class of people but even better!
Momma Angel wrote:Questioner,
DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? You and others are telling me that I am wrong because of my beliefs.
I am telling you you are wrong to argue against the rights of homosexual couples to marry based solely upon the bible.
Quote:You and others are telling me that I am wrong because I am not going out there and actually cast a vote! You know, kind of like imposing what YOU AND OTHERS feel and want on me!
Nonsense. I am not telling you you are wrong because you aren't voting I'm telling you that your belief that homosexual couples should not be allowed to marry solely because of the bible is wrong.
Quote:Now, if the shoe were on the other foot, I would be being told that I AM FORCING my beliefs on someone.
Incorrect. I'm telling you you're stance is wrong based upon the laws and freedoms protected within this country. Those aren't beliefs, but points of fact. Or if you prefer, points of contention. However, if you wish to provide an argument containing anything other than 'because the bible says they can't.' then I will happily discuss it with you without taking the 'agree to disagree' path.
Quote:You and others are essentially forcing your beliefs on me by not wanting to allow me to believe what I believe because I won't do it your way!
Nonsense. We are disagreeing with what you 'believe' because what you 'believe' can directly affect the way others are allowed to live their lives. You don't have to do it my way, you merely have to acknowledge that what you believe, as it pertains to this country and the liberties of it's people, is wrong. That would successfully end the debate.
Quote:Honey, I AIN'T BURGER KING, OK? :wink: [/color]
Ok.
I believe cats should not be allowed to marry.
Dogs on the other hand should be allowed to marry.
That is my belief.
I am allowed to have my own beliefs.
She feels she has the right to oppress other people.
Momma Angel wrote:If I were to vote no, then yes, it would directly affect someone else. I merely have to acknowledge......is wrong? Maybe to you and others, but what about to God?
If he has a problem with the liberties and freedoms that are every US citizen's rights, then he's free to write his congressman.
Quote:Asking someone to vote for something they don't agree with or whatever just doesn't seem right to me. It feels like you are telling me that my rights are not as important as someone else's.
Get it through your head MA. I'm not asking you to vote on anything. You are free to vote for whatever you wish. That is YOUR right. That is neither here nor there with what I'm saying. You may vote how you wish, but before you do I'd like for you to admit that what you believe in goes against the grain of what this country stands for.
Quote:So since I don't actually get to vote and this is just a discussion, I don't see how I am affecting anyone's rights by holding a hypothetical conversation.
1) I'm not saying you can't vote.
2) The fact that you keep trying to back out of these 'hypothetical conversations' by 'agreeing to disagree' is the primary reason why this issue is still an issue.
Questioner,
I am not trying to back out of anything. As a matter of fact, I'd just as soon end the discussion and it doesn't matter to me one way or another if some think they won it or they are right or whatever you want to call it.
I would do what I would think the right thing is. I don't think anyone can ask anyone to do more than that.
They can ask you to think again.
Momma Angel wrote:I would do what I would think the right thing is. I don't think anyone can ask anyone to do more than that.[/color]
This isn't the issue, and you're dodging. I want you to think this through very carefully before you answer.
Do you believe that, in a land where freedoms are cherished above all else, that it is fair for one group of people to be allowed marriage, and for another to not be.
Do not bring god into it, do not bring your bible into it. Think on it from a worldly perspective and give me an honest answer.
Questioner,
As the law stands right now, let's say in Louisiana, every single person has the EXACT same right when it comes to marriage.
questioner, I think that you are being a bit unreasonable with MA. I don't really believe that she can put aside her religious belief system and open mindedly utilize a secular analysis of human rights. I am pretty sure she believes that bible scripture outranks constitutional law. I also believe that she would prefer that the US of A be a christian theocracy. She is not alone in these beliefs.
